40. Design Thinking

When we design our classes, we often focus primarily on the learning objectives that we determine for our students. Might our classes be more effective if we focused more on our students’ needs, objectives, goals, and the barriers they face? In this episode, we examine how we can use design thinking to make our classes better serve students’ needs.

Show Notes


John: When we design our classes, we often focus primarily on the learning objectives that we determine for our students. Might our classes be more effective if we focused more on our students’ needs, objectives, goals, and the barriers they face? In this episode, we examine how we can use design thinking to make our classes better serve students’ needs.


John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca:This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer.

Rebecca:Together we run the Center for Excellence in Learning and Teaching at the State University of New York at Oswego.


John: Allison Rank joins us again today as a guest host. Rebecca has been once again displaced and she’s in the guest chair this week. Welcome Allison and Rebecca.


Allison: Thanks.

John: Today our teas are:

Allison: Cold water.

Rebecca:…once again.

John: …and my tea today is a ginger tea

Rebecca:…mine’s English afternoon. I almost thought that with today’s episode we should have made it water day or something, in honor of Allison.

Allison: I will keep coming, but I’m not drinking tea.


Rebecca:We’ll have to get you sick one more time.


John: There’s been a lot of discussion in various groups about the importance of introducing design thinking and we’ve also heard bits of that discussion from you on previous podcasts. So today we’re going to talk a little bit about design thinking. What exactly is design thinking?

Rebecca:Design thinking is a methodology that is probably familiar to most people in creative fields, because it’s something in common that most creative fields have. So, it’s not necessarily unique to design, and it’s also a process that’s common with innovators. But, really it’s an idea that you’re empathizing or getting to know your audience and seeing the process or the solution through their eyes. We’re not just coming in with the idea that “I know the solution. I know what the outcomes gonna be already…” but being open to the idea that it could be something else… and not having my preconceived idea… and that’s where the innovation actually comes in… and so you use that empathy to help define a problem. Then there’s a big process of ideation. You’re really breaking out of the normal, or the quick or ready-at-hand, answers or solutions that we might have from the ideation stage. Then you prototype. You’ll try something out at a small scale, then you test it see how it actually works…. and then you go back and revise it and do it again and again and again… When you’re using design thinking you may end up ultimately with a solution, but as a faculty member the way that I implement it, it’s never probably fully finished… that implementation stage just goes again and again.

John: Well, isn’t that just the notion of recurring reflective practice? A useful thing to do in any case, right?

Rebecca:Yeah, I think the key piece that tends to be missing from more traditional ways of developing curriculum or being in the classroom is the piece of looking at it through the students perception or lens… and it’s not just thinking about “what classes have they taken before” or “what don’t they know” but rather: “Where are they having fear? Where are they struggling? Where are they concerned? Where do they have some delight or surprise in the subject matter? What are their goals?” …and actually starting with that rather than starting with “Here’s the content you need to have.” So, I think that that’s a big difference between more traditional practices… and obviously there’s backwards design that starts with the end goal, but the design thinking mixes more of the students perception than would be otherwise.

John: So, more focus on audience?

Rebecca:Yeah, definitely.

Allison: Can you actually distinguish between backwards design and design thinking for a minute?

Rebecca:Yeah, I can try. [LAUGHTER] Backwards design… I’m sure many people have heard in relationship to curricular development… and that’s generally thinking about what you want the student outcomes to be… and you start with the outcomes and then you essentially work backwards from there. so how do you get students to end up at those outcomes… but, it’s usually more from implementing evidence-based practices and based on that science that’s what you would do… and it doesn’t necessarily take into account this particular group of students, or that audience piece as much. There’s definitely things in common.

John: Just to elaborate a little bit, you’d start with the goal, and then you’d work back to how you would measure that goal, in terms of designing assessment, and then you would build the learning objects… but it’s a somewhat different focus. It’s more just on getting students to the goal without as much focus on their needs or their motivation or interest, perhaps?

Rebecca:Yeah, I would say that it aligns really well with more traditional design practices, rather than user-centered design practices… where let’s say, if I’m doing an actual design work for a client, like a graphic design piece, and someone comes with their business goals or outcomes and I’m just focusing on that… that’s very related to backwards design and that we’re thinking about our curricular goals that’s aligned. This piece brings in that user centeredness or the audience.

John: Are the two necessarily exclusive though? Because I would think that you could use a design thinking approach as a way you design the learning approach, or am i misinterpreting that?

Rebecca:No, I think all the design thinking does is adds audience into backwards design. It’s backwards design but there’s a much bigger focus on audience as a result. But the other pieces are in common.

John: Maybe if you could provide an example of how design thinking might affect the way you structure instruction…

Rebecca:Okay. I’ll use an example from one of the classes that I’m working on right now, because it’s in my head. One of the things that I’ve been struggling in the classes that I teach is getting students to understand designing with accessibility in mind… and accessibility means making sure that whatever product you’re designing is available to all people including people with a wide variety of disabilities… from maybe a more traditional backwards design approach I might identify: they need to understand the accessibility principles, apply them in a design (and that would be the outcome that I’m looking for), and then I would figure out how I would measure that using a rubric on a project, and then move back from there and figure out some learning activities that they might need to do to practice those skills and have retrieval practice and that kind of thing… but if I’m thinking about it from a design thinking perspective, I’m not assuming that the outcome is gonna be this particular design with this particular thing in mind. It’s not a project, necessarily, but rather I’m gonna start with the idea: “Why do students struggle with the idea of accessibility in the first place?” Part of it is they think that it doesn’t apply to the work that they’ll be doing, so they don’t see how it’s relevant. Part of it is they may not understand the wide variety of disability that’s there… or how people with disabilities might use a website. They’re not familiar with the assistive technologies… how they work, etc… in part because a lot of existing examples are at a level much higher than a beginner. So, it might be hard to relate to. They get frustrated because there’s a technical component to it and that’s also new on top of the design piece. See, if you keep going through that whole list of activities… or maybe they feel like they can’t talk about disability because they don’t have the language to do that. Now, there’s a whole pile of other potential problems that I need to solve, rather than just assuming I need to teach the accessibility principles. For me to be able to do that now, I’m realizing. I need to teach a little bit about disability… I need to teach about talking about disability,… as part of that integrated process to actually reach that goal… and not just the content that would reach that goal.

Allison: If, as a faculty member, and I’ve been struggling to do this a little bit… there was a workshop that you offered at the start of summer that a number of faculty went to, what would you recommend when you’re trying to first start thinking about making a shift to designing classes using this strategy?

Rebecca:I think the best place to start is… one small thing. Maybe there’s one thing that students are struggling with in your class. I’m not sure what that might be. Maybe it’s writing an argument, so we can be a more specific. That’s the instructional objective. Now you need to start thinking about “how does that relate to a student’s needs?” or “where do they get stuck or where do they get frustrated?” or “what do they already know?,” “what are their misperceptions?” and you start from their perspective and some of that’s through observation. So, you can probably answer some of those questions just based on your own observations from having taught writing in your classes.

Allison: Sure.

Rebecca:Some of it might be you need to ask some questions of that population to better understand why they feel like they get stuck. It might be interviews. It might be surveys or questions in class.

Allison: Yeah.

Rebecca:You get a feel for that, then you start trying to figure out “Okay, if I want them to write arguments better, but this is their barriers, hurdles, and goals, where can you find some… essentially… synergy between those that you could focus on? …and then define an actual problem that you want to solve. You might initially start thinking “Oh, the problem I’m trying to solve is students don’t know how to write an argument,” but actually if you’re using design thinking you would be open to the idea that that’s not the problem you’re trying to solve… and you allow that exploration to allow you to gather more information to come up with a better problem statement that puts the user or the audience (or in this case, the student) at the forefront as opposed to your objective at the forefront.

Allison: I think the place where for me, even in the initial explanation, as a faculty member I get tripped up is the immediate knee jerk that is “Sure, but then by the end of the semester I need them to write an argument.” So, at some point I’m gonna refocus to the objective being writing an argument. When in the process does that come back?

Rebecca:What you’re assuming is that that ever goes away… and it doesn’t. Rather, you’re just reframing the problem. If the hurdle is “I don’t know what an argument is…” that there’s two sides to an argument perhaps…. at least…

Allison: Yeah…

Rebecca:…or there’s multiple perspectives that are involved in the argument, then it might start with that, in overcoming those perceptions… in doing some exercises to move towards… it’s not that you won’t get them to do that in the end…. but maybe you’re always thinking it has to be a paper… and I’m just putting words in your mouth….

Allison: Sure.

Rebecca:…it might not be that…

Allison: Sure.

Rebecca:…but maybe your assumption is that the only way I can get there is they have to write a paper… but maybe there’s some other kinds of ways that they can practice doing an argument that’s not a paper first… that might take advantage of some of their strengths or their perceived strengths that could help them be more confident to do the thing you want them to do ultimately. But, I think it’s really about the starting point… the journey to get to that place is very different if you’re thinking about the student first, rather than my goal of writing an argument first.

John: When you talk about focusing on the student first, would you focus on what preconceptions they have? what barriers? and what’s preventing them to get to that? …and then focus on designing ways of getting them to achieve that goal.

Rebecca:Yeah, definitely, and also what some of their goals are. They might have goals that are related, that you could bring to the forefront or make that the lead… that’s the hook to get them where you want them to go… Use the things that they care about as a way to get there. we’ve talked in the past from some of the reading groups and things that we’ve done on our campus about the big questions that you can surround your class around. That’s one of the strategies that might help you get more student focused. That’s a strategy that you could use.

So, you were saying that some of the things that we need to focus on would be misperceptions and that sort of thing, but I would expand that… and this is where most academics get nervous. I know Allison does… [LAUGHTER] ..is that we start getting into the severe qualitative space.

Allison: Yes.

Rebecca:…and feelings… [LAUGHTER]

Allison: Yes.

Rebecca:We know that fear, though, prevents learning. There’s certainly evidence about that. Understanding fears could be really important… understanding aspirations… understanding what their experience is like… which are all things that don’t have hard facts necessarily associated with them. They’re more squishy.

Allison: There are also things that change from class to class.

Rebecca:It’s true.

Allison: …it’s part of what makes me very concerned about trying to implement this as part of my syllabus design.


Allison: …because what works really well for a class may not for the next one and it strikes me as difficult to tell until you are three, four, or five weeks into the class that it’s gone awry.

Rebecca:Yeah. I think that you want to use design thinking on individual small things and, if you’re a design thinker, you’re flexible… in that you can recalibrate… “Oh, this is off course,” that’s the iterative part… that you’re not married to some solution. It’s not so precious… If you’re thinking about developing these things, part of what you want to focus on is the idea that: a) it’s not precious… the learning is precious… but the way that we get the learning done isn’t. That sometimes helps… just remembering that… but it doesn’t have to be perfect all the time.

Allison: Right. Sure.

Rebecca:So, I would focus on… there’s some things that are gonna work, in general, most of the time… and those are probably things to say like “Okay, I’m close enough on that” but then there’s always gonna be the one thing… it hasn’t been working for awhile… and those are the things that I would focus on using a design thinking method to get you outside of standard solutions so that you might actually find something that works…

John: It sounds like you’re also suggesting maintaining flexibility so that if you’re trying an approach and it’s not working, go back to the drawing board and redesign it. I seem to remember hearing something about a case where someone was doing something in a class and it wasn’t working that well and they brought in the three little pigs.

Rebecca:Yeah, I think something like that might have happened… [LAUGHTER]

John: …and that was in an earlier episode of our podcast… you discussed that… and that seems like a really good example of this, where the approach that you thought would work based on past experience and so forth just wasn’t working that well. So, you changed it to something that did work better with that group of students. Is that correct?

Rebecca:Yeah, as you teach over time, and if you’re teaching the same kinds of things over time, what you end up with is a repertoire of things that you can use or a repertoire of assignments or experiences or modules or whatever that you can mix and match as your student population changes… and one thing that I struggle with is the mix of my students changes very drastically between semesters…

Allison: Right.

Rebecca:…and that’s actually why I have to mix things up. If I have all majors one semester but then it’s like a hodgepodge…

Allison: Sure.

Rebecca:…another semester, then you really have to approach things differently…

Allison: Yeah.

Rebecca:…or it’s just not gonna work. As you develop these tools for one population you don’t abandon them forever if it didn’t work this time around, but that might be the thing that you bring back in another time… recognizing like “I see these patterns again…” I think, over time, then you end up with that repertoire, so it’s not a big workload issue. You can’t think that you’re gonna solve every problem… every semester… all the time. That’s not a workload related thing… but over time, you have the ability to solve problems on the fly much easier.

Allison: Are there particular resources you would recommend that faculty go to if they’re trying to figure out how to start doing this for a class?

Rebecca:There’s a few colleges that have really embraced the idea of design thinking for populations of students outside of design. One of them is the “D” school which is at Stanford, which is kind of a hodgepodge between design and business, I think… kind of an interesting strategy based program, but they have a virtual crash course in design thinking online. There’s a scenario… and how to facilitate… in a playbook for how to facilitate it. You could go through an exercise like that. It’s all free, It’s a creative commons license… to just figure out how to design think before you start trying to apply it to your own context. That would be one way of doing it. There’s also IDEO which is a design company who’s best known for design thinking and working with pretty major brands doing pretty innovative things…. and some of the founder names are in a lot of the literature on design thinking. One of them is Tim Brown and the other is David Kelly. David Kelly is the founder of the d.school as well… but both of them are founders of IDEO. They have recently set up online classes in design thinking and design thinking for leadership and creativity, and what have you… and they have a wide repertoire of them. That would be another resource. You have to pay for those courses, but those are the absolute experts in design thinking. You know it’s a design thinking workshop when you see a lot of post-it notes.

John: ..and are there any books or other references that might be useful in addition to these?

Rebecca:Yeah. Those same two people have a couple of books that might be worth checking out. One is by Tim Brown called Change by Design and David Kelly and his brother Tom wrote a book called Creative Confidence that is also pretty good. That has a lot of design thinking and creative thinking for leadership in it. Both of those books provide a good frame for how to use some of these methodologies in context outside of design. The key thing to remember about design thinking, and this goes back to one of your earlier questions Allison, is that it’s not linear… [LAUGHTER] It’s a completely nonlinear super messy process… and so it makes people from certain disciplines really anxious. There’s not like a beginning, middle, and end. It’s a spiral that gets mixed and turned over and over again. it’s important to remember that. There is some science involved, because we certainly want to be using evidence-based practices and things as we’re coming up with solutions… but there’s a little bit of intuition based on experience that comes through. There’s a little bit of emotion that’s there… and really thinking about it holistically rather than just from one perspective is really key.

Allison: How have students responded to units that you designed using this? or do students know? Is this one of those processes that ideally students don’t see? or is it a process that, particularly for your field, ideally students do see?

Rebecca:I’ve never pointed it out. It’s an interesting question. I tend to point it out more when I’m working with teachers… because I just can’t help myself but explain my process comes from my discipline. That’s why I do what I do, but it’s related to these other design practices that are related to curriculum. It just brings this other piece in. In general, I can tell the ones that I’ve spent time designing versus things that I haven’t as much. Those work better and what John was referring to before when I stopped everything because things weren’t working and I recalibrated and really thought about the students and where they were at… that worked fantastic. I’m really hoping… I guess we’ll know after this little accessibility experiment that I’m doing right now whether or not using the design thinking method is gonna solve this particular problem… but I think the key is when it doesn’t, that’s okay… because it’s not precious and I can iterate and learn from what I tried… and that didn’t work… so why didn’t [it] work and then try something else. I think ultimately it does end up working, but it might take a couple tries and that’s in part because you can’t tell the future… and you don’t know the future based on the past… but it’s really focusing on the present… This is what I can observe… This is what I know about the students… This is what they can tell me… and I can only really make decisions based on that…

John: How do you assess how well it’s working at any given time?

Rebecca:The same way that we assess student learning… my student learning outcomes are better than whatever I did must have worked or I don’t really care it worked… if they’re doing well, let’s keep it. [LAUGHTER]…make a thumbs-up….

John: What I meant to ask is do you monitor this when you try something new as it’s going to see how it’s going or do you wait until you see the final stage?

Rebecca:I’m watching and observing during the process to see whether or not students are catching on and I will intervene if it’s not working… if I’ve tried something and it’s like “ah yeah. I can foresee this crashing and burning in the next couple of classes…” or whatever then I’ll circle back and do the iteration before the end of the semester sometimes it’s between semesters that I do iterations and sometimes I just recalibrate in the middle of a semester on something and make some minor tweaks to something so it works better for the students.

Allison: I think the thing that’s interesting there is I suspect that most faculty would say “oh yeah, I can feel when something’s going off in my class” and I think many of us at least try to stop and say “okay, what do I need to do to fix this?” What seems different is what question are you asking. What are the series of questions you ask when it’s time to say “Oh, this has gone off the rails in some way…” and I think it can be easy to say “with this group of students it’s gone off the rails” without actually thinking about “Is there something different about that group of students that’s why it’s gone off the rails?” Which seems like the insight that the design thinking may really provide. For a lot of faculty would already say but I do design my classes really carefully… or I have lots of things that I run that are different from class to class that it’s really about where do you start….


Allison: …the questions.

Rebecca:Yeah.I think you’re right. The series of questions that I asked might be quite different. I still start with those same goals, but I start with all those questions about students and then in the middle of the semester I revisit those questions often. Did I make a good choice about that? I have these non-design students in my class, do they seem like they’re getting the design piece or not? If they’re not, then I did something wrong. I need to fix that because that’s not okay. I certainly do that and sometimes I just ask them: “What do you need? This is not working. I can see it’s not working. I’m sure you can feel it’s not working. Do you know what you need? Because if you know what you need then I’ll start there.” …and I think it’s a willingness sometimes to be willing to have a conversation… and it does have to be with all students… but if you have a couple students who maybe are a little more forthright, or you have a good relationship with, I’ve done that… “What do you think is going on here?”

Allison: Yeah, and I think to me that gets back to the question I asked earlier, which is “Do you make it transparent to your students the same way that I think we’ve talked about in other contexts… that for assignment sheets, you want to say “The purpose of this assignment is to get you from point A to point B and this is what I’m trying to do is to actually say “Hey, we can all feel that this went wrong” beyond just coming in and saying “Hey, we can all feel that this isn’t going great, here’s what we’re gonna do…” instead it’s “Hey, we can all feel that this isn’t going great. I’d really like to hear from your perspective what’s going wrong, but also what do you need for me so that I can make sure to adjust in a particular way.”

Rebecca:Yes, I make that part transparent.

Allison: OK.

Rebecca:If things go wrong I certainly…

Allison: Yeah.

Rebecca:…whatever. [LAUGHTER] I’m an open book. I make mistakes. I’m human… but I don’t always hold to the forefront that I’m using a process that’s user centered or audience centered.

Allison: OK.

Rebecca:That might be obvious when I asked them for their perception…

Allison: …what they’re looking for. Yeah.

Rebecca: I just don’t name it.

John: …and that’s what I was thinking about when I was asking that. That I would think that getting some feedback from them, if you’re going to focus on the needs of the students it would be really important to make sure that you’re meeting those needs as you move through.

Rebecca:Yeah, and I always start my classes getting to know students. I do an exercise the first day of class that’s called “hopes and fears” that brings out some things that I may or may not be aware of… Often I am… there’s certain things that bubble up every time, but every once in a while there’s something there that I wasn’t expecting to be there… and then you can kind of ask about it and get a feel for it and that’s right at the beginning of this semester. “Oh, okay something new’s here, I should be aware of that.

Allison: That’s one we’ve talked about before… that I am actively planning to steal from many of my classes.

Rebecca:It works really well.

John: Now, that approach can work really well in a smaller class of the sizes that you normally teach. How might that scale to larger scale classes?

Rebecca:I think that that can work. Probably the amount of flexibility you can have in the middle of this semester might not be there. You can make some shifts, or whatever, but there’s a lot more students to deal with, so you’re not quite as mobile or nimble. There’s that. You may have to do more of the iteration between semesters rather than within this semester. If you’re steering a big ship, you can’t make a drastic turn. You can kind of steer it in a slightly different direction and make minor corrections, but I don’t think you could do a major correction in the same way that I could do in a smaller class. I just don’t think it’s that feasible or advisable. [LAUGHTER]

John: But, you could still try to get feedback from the students on how it’s working… what’s working well… what’s not working well… It could even be just from surveys even. Because it might be harder to get that small group feedback result.

Rebecca:Yeah, and I recommend doing that every semester… getting a feel for that… something that’s separate from standard course evaluations… not at the same time as course evaluations… not at the end of the semester when students are stressed out… at different points in this semester, you can get that feedback and there’s a wide variety of ways that you can collect that information.

John: …and responding to that could be useful too… letting students know that you do hear their voice and that you are responding and making adjustments where you can, or at least being transparent, and letting them know why perhaps some of the things that they think might help might not work as well if it’s not consistent with evidence-based teaching or something similar.

Rebecca:Yeah, and I think you can also say “Well, thanks for your feedback. I can’t make all the adjustments I’d like to this semester, but I’m gonna use it for next semester just like I used the previous semester’s to make this class better for you.” I think if you indicate that then students are more interested or invested in giving you useful feedback.

John: They know their voices are being heard and their needs are being addressed, even if it’s not going to immediately benefit them.

Rebecca:Yeah, yeah… and depending on how big your major is maybe I can’t adjust it in this class, but you might have another class with me, and I might take this information under advisement for that other class that you might end up being in.

John: One of the things we did with our reading groups is we had faculty from many different disciplines getting together and talk about problems they experienced in their courses and then we had people from different disciplines respond with techniques that they found useful. Would that be a good way of trying to encourage faculty, perhaps, to do more design thinking? by talking with colleagues from other disciplines as well as their own?

Rebecca:Yeah. I think one thing that you could do in a setting like that is to remind faculty to investigate who there audiences… to gain empathy for their audience… really their students… but then to take advantage of those opportunities to interact with other faculty, ideally faculty not from your own discipline because different disciplines think different… and use those group opportunities for that ideation piece… because the solutions that come to you most naturally are aligned with your own pattern of thinking… but if I have a conversation with Allison, who’s in political science and I’m in design… something she does in her class may not directly apply to what I’m doing, but all of a sudden it gets me to think differently about what I’m doing and the students that I have… or maybe there’s similar issues that students are struggling with. I find all of those interactions with other faculty to be most valuable for that ideation. I can’t ideate in a room by myself… Really all that ideation, even if I’m not sitting with sticky notes and brainstorming or doing a specific brainstorming activity, those interactions with other faculty feed my ability to come up with ideas that I wouldn’t have had otherwise.

Allison: I think they also tend to feed empathy. It’s that sort of experience of sitting in rooms with other faculty and hearing them throw off language… that it gives you that moment that you don’t have as much anymore, maybe… that you had an undergrad when you were suddenly in a class and were like “Oh, I don’t know what this is about… at all” and it’s clearly just the base vocabulary of somebody else’s discipline and sort of be the person who has to say “This is super interesting, but I don’t know where we are in this conversation right now…” can, I think at least for me, often help with that feeling of “Oh, this is what the students that take my intro to political science gen ed class… that’s what they’re feeling when they’re sitting in the classroom…” and I think that’s… in terms of just being in a headspace to think empathetically with our students… can be very helpful.

Rebecca:Yeah, and I think that happened a lot when we were doing our syllabus workshop this past spring. There were faculty from a wide range of disciplines that were in the room. I think there was only overlap between two faculty. When we were having conversations or were talking about different pieces of the workshop would be like “Wait a second, I thought it was like this…” We have our own misperceptions of each other’s disciplines and it came out in those conversations.

Allison: Right, or people would raise “This is the prompt I would use in my poetry class and we all had a “Oh, we don’t think that means what you think it means.”


Allison: At all. I thought that was a very valuable part of doing that workshop.

Rebecca: Yeah, definitely… and that’s the ideation piece. You got to get yourself out of thinking in the way that you normally think, and that’s where you come up with the innovative ideas.

John: Well, at this point, we normally ask our guests what are you going to do next? So, Rebecca, what are you going to do next?

Rebecca:Vacation…. I’m going on vacation.

John: Where are you going?

Rebecca:I’m going to Iceland.

John: Excellent.

Rebecca:I just need a break. I’m gonna come back and work on the accessibility stuff that I had started. I have a grant actually to support that work through Teach Access.

John: Congratulations! I saw that you had tweeted that.

Rebecca:Thanks. That funding will help me do some of the things that I’ve wanted to be able to do for a long time, which involves inviting the disability community into helping me develop some of the exercises that I do with my students.

Allison: Great.

John: Okay, well thank you for serving as a guest, and I guess I’ll see you when you get back from Iceland and I get back from North Carolina.

Rebecca:Yeah, which is about the same day.

John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca:You can find show notes, transcripts, and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Theme music by Michael Gary Brewer. Editing assistance from Nicky Radford.