Providing more autonomy can increase students’ intrinsic motivation. In this episode, Chris Hromalik joins us to discuss ways of increasing student autonomy within the UDL framework. an Assistant Professor of Spanish and Distance Learning Instruction and Design at SUNY Oswego. He is also the Project Manager of the Universal Design for Learning at SUNY Project. In this role he provides Universal Design for Learning professional development across the SUNY system. Chris is also the recipient of a SUNY Chancellor’s Award for Excellence in Scholarship and Creative Activities. His research focuses on UDL as well as statistical analysis on applied linguistics and education.
Show Notes
- CAST, The UDL Guidelines
Transcript
John: Providing more autonomy can increase students’ intrinsic motivation. In this episode we explore ways of increasing student autonomy within the UDL framework.
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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.
Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…
John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…
Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.
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Rebecca: Our guest today is Chris Hromalik, an Assistant Professor of Spanish and Distance Learning Instruction and Design at SUNY Oswego. He is also the Project Manager of the Universal Design for Learning at SUNY Project. In this role he provides Universal Design for Learning professional development across the SUNY system. Chris is also the recipient of a SUNY Chancellor’s Award for Excellence in Scholarship and Creative Activities. His research focuses on UDL as well as statistical analysis on applied linguistics and education. Welcome, Chris.
Chris: Thank you.
John: Today’s teas are: … Chris, are you drinking any tea?
Chris: I am. I have the Tazo RefreshMint. Very good.
Rebecca: Nice and relaxing, right?
Chris: It is.
John: And Rebecca?
Rebecca: I am back to my Scottish afternoon tea.
John: …and I am drinking Darjeeling tea today.
Rebecca: Oh, you’re mixing it up, John. So Chris, we’ve invited you here today to discuss your work with UDL and instructional design. Can you talk a little bit about how you got started with UDL?
Chris: Sure. So thank you, Rebecca, thank you, John for having me here today. All of it began as far back as 2011 when I took my first course in accessible usable web design. And wow, it’s been a while, but at that time, Nancy Carr, who was the director of the Office of Accessibility Resources at Onondaga Community College, she recruited me to be an Office of Accessibility Resources ambassador, and the idea was to be able to make other faculty aware of how to work more closely with the Office of Accessibility Resources. And I was tasked with helping faculty to better understand digital accessibility, how to make their documents more accessible. With time, I ended up joining the Universal Design for Learning Academy, which, at the time, was funded by the Onondaga Pathways to Career Project through a grant from the Office of Disability Employment Policy through the US Department of Labor. The idea was to train faculty in the Universal Design for Learning Framework. We had a three-day workshop. It went very well, repeated three more times, extended to four days even, and ended up training over 110 faculty, staff, and administrators at Onondaga Community College. And then fall 2021 I ended up bringing it to the SUNY level, and here we are today. All is going well so far.
John: Well, I suspect most of our listeners are familiar with the basics of UDL. Could you just provide a really quick overview of what UDL is, and why should we consider using UDL.
Chris: Universal Design for Learning is a framework based on scientific insight into how humans learn that can help to make more accessible, inclusive, and usable learning experiences for students. We’ll talk a little bit more about the three principles of UDL throughout the interview today, but some of the main benefits would be that if we are thinking proactively about how we can design our instruction to reduce barriers for students during the design process, as opposed to trying to be reactive, and trying to then retrofit our instruction or change our instruction later, we can create learning experiences that are going to be better for all of our students. One of the examples I like to give comes from, going back to the Universal Design for Learning Academy back at Onondaga Community College, a fantastic professor of mathematics. Part of the Universal Design for Learning Academy was, during the summer, be trained in the Universal Design for Learning Framework, and in the fall, we would implement some sort of instructional intervention, some way that we would apply the UDL framework to our instruction with students. And this professor of mathematics had recognized that there was a unit of his instruction that was more challenging than others for his students. It was a lesson on eigenvectors, vector spaces, linear transformations. When you realize that this isn’t a matter of engagement, the students are really interested in this. These are math majors, they really like what they’re doing, but it was a challenging topic. And we took a look at the textbooks, how the textbook was this 2D presentation in text and mathematical formulas and that sort of thing. But he found a visual representation in the form of video that took this, what really is a more three- dimensional concept, and made it three dimensional, as opposed to the 2D representation of the textbook. And where I bring this in is that when we think about Universal Design for Learning, the idea is that we’re creating more accessible, usable, inclusive instruction for our students, but there are going to be benefits that are going to benefit everyone in the classroom. When this professor was thinking about how he’s going to present this, he presents the video, but he is also supplementing the video by describing the visuals aloud. Keep in mind the idea that if we have a student who is blind or has low vision in the class, how can we ensure access to all students in the classroom? And so he would take the time to describe the visuals aloud. And yes, this does benefit a student who is blind or has low vision, but all students are benefiting from this, because when the professor is making salient the most important information from this video, this benefits all the students in the classroom. And so the idea being that when we think about how we can design to reduce barriers for the students in our class, we’re able to then make a better learning experience for everybody.
Rebecca: On July 30, 2024, CAST, which is the organization that puts out UDL principles, released the 3.0 version of the UDL guidelines, both the earlier and current versions of the UDL Guidelines focus on course design that results in students having multiple means of engagement, representation, and action and expression. So those are the three overlying guidelines, but there were substantial revisions in how those guidelines are described. The 3.0 version of the UDL guidelines remove the word “provide.” Can you talk about the shift in focus away from having faculty provide these UDL features.
Chris: So, Rebecca, the shift that you’re referring to is the idea of moving from providing multiple means of representation, providing multiple means of action, expression, providing multiple means of engagement, and instead saying to design multiple means of representation, design multiple means of action and expression, design multiple means of engagement. And a lot of that comes down to this idea of moving away from a more teacher-centered approach to the classroom and having a more learner- centered approach to the classroom. And so a lot of what we’re going to see in these changes that are in the UDL 3.0 guidelines is this idea of moving toward a more learner-centered approach to the classroom. And it’s not like it wasn’t there before. The idea of teacher-centered of teacher-centered versus learner-centered, it’s always been part of it, but to place greater emphasis on the idea that it isn’t necessarily us as the instructors who are providing the learning experiences, and that we are the ones who are responsible for this. And I’ve seen this with the workshops that I’ve given, that one of the questions that I oftentimes will receive is, is the onus always on us as the instructors to be providing for the students. And so to me, when I saw the change, it made sense. It addresses some of the concerns that faculty in higher education have expressed to me, this idea of, well, we want our students to be intrinsically motivated. We want our students to be interested in what they’re learning. And so the idea is that we’re moving away from this idea of we are the providers of knowledge. We are the sages on the stage. It’s going to be a more learner-centered approach to the classroom.
John: The original guidelines focus on developing student expertise. The new guidelines focus instead on developing learner agency. What’s the purpose of the shift? And what are some ways in which instructors can do this?
Chris: So a lot of this does come back to the idea of learner-centered versus teacher-centered. Nothing has changed in terms of wanting our learners be expert learners. But the idea is, as opposed to focusing on understanding content, it’s more the idea of students taking ownership of their learning, the idea that students are going to help to shape the learning process. So when I think about learner agency and I think about learner autonomy, the first thing that I begin to think about is thinking about self-determination theory. So when we think about self-determination theory, we have three components that are going to influence our levels of intrinsic motivation. We have competence, whether or not we believe that we can actually complete a task or complete a task to a high level of quality. One of the others is relatedness, which we’ll talk a little bit about when we get into talking about some of the other changes that’s related to bias and exclusionary practices. We’ll talk about this idea of relatedness and autonomy is going to be one of the most important aspects, the idea of agency and being able to feel like you’re in charge of the learning experience. And if we think about the idea that if students are more intrinsically motivated, they have this inherent interest in learning, versus extrinsic motivated, going to be more outside influences. It’s the difference between having a student, for example, who’s interested in learning about something just because they are interested in the topic, versus someone who’s learning to get a better grade in the course. And if you want to be able to build up this interest in students’ inherent interest in their intrinsic motivation in the course, increasing their autonomy is going to help to do that. Intrinsic motivation, greater levels have been associated with greater academic performance, greater creativity in the classroom and so it all leads together. Thinking about it from a student success perspective, if we can increase learner autonomy, we can increase their intrinsic motivation, increase their academic performance, and one of the ways to do that is to be able to offer options to learners. But going even further then, in the 3.0 guidelines, offering students the option of having choice, to be able to discover resources on their own. As opposed to giving one textbook reading, could there be other options that we could offer to learners, or the learners can find their own options too? We have so many different things that can be found online, that allowing learners that agency, that autonomy, to be able to search out the information that’s going to help them to be successful and reach the learning objectives of the course.
Rebecca: Are there ways that you embed agency in the classes that you teach?
Chris: I’m going to give a lot of examples today, from online courses that either I’ve taught in the past or courses that I’m preparing at the moment. And one of the ways that, when you think about designing multiple means of representation, one of the ways to offer choice or offer more autonomy for learners is to be able to more guide them toward being able to find things, be able to offer different options. So we have our textbook readings, we have videos, instructional materials that come with it. Be able to point students toward other resources and guide them to understand how to actually purposefully search for information, because search, in and of itself, is a skill. To be able to create a purposeful search, be able to find resources on your own, is part of the learning process itself. So as opposed to just providing just the resources to be able to tell students, here are some other sources we can be consulting. Here are some other high quality resources and then be able to teach them how they can be able to search for that information on their own.
John: While UDL has always had a component of providing students with multiple means of engagement, to provide students with multiple ways of connecting to the content that is the focus of the class. The new guidelines include a focus on removing bias and exclusionary practices. Could you talk a little bit about what this sort of change involves and how it may affect the way in which courses are designed?
Chris: when I think about designing multiple means of engagement, typically when I have a shorter workshop or a shorter webinar, the way I’ll explain this, here’s a simple way of thinking about it is, as opposed to with designing multiple means of representation, where we are considering, how can we provide an accessible, usable option for how we present content, with action expression, how can we design an accessible and usable option for how students demonstrate the knowledge? With engagement, I think about relevance, and how can we design multiple examples for what we’re trying to teach students? So if we think about multiple examples, and we think about examples that are going to represent the diversity of our student population, this is going to help us to remove bias, be more inclusive in the classroom, and for the students to be able to then see themselves in what it is that we’re teaching. To get back to self-determination theory, for example, the idea of relatedness. And if we think about whether or not students do see themselves in what we’re teaching them, will we be able to then help them to build up intrinsic motivation, which, of course, then can lead them to be more successful? This is going to be something that can and has potential to increase student success, for them to be able to see themselves in what they’re learning. And also we think about feedback, one of the strategies I like to emphasize the idea of providing multiple examples of what we’re teaching, and especially thinking of examples, maybe outside of our typical canon. But if we also think about the feedback that we provide to students too, and if we’re providing feedback to students, ensuring that the feedback we’re providing is going to be free of bias as well too. This is a different example, it’s outside of higher education, but I think about the experience of my own daughter and thinking about some of the feedback that at a young age she would receive. That I am not necessarily your typical American in many ways. I don’t necessarily always have all the same customs and traditions. I don’t always honor the same customs and traditions, in the sense of we may do things differently at different holiday times, may eat different foods and what might be typical. And my wife is also not from the US originally. And so when we were raising my daughter, she wasn’t necessarily being raised with the same songs, with the same nursery rhymes, with the same poems and the same ways of doing things that other kids were, and the type of feedback that she received at a young age was there was just a misunderstanding of the fact that she wasn’t raised in the same way as many of her classmates, and it was a misunderstanding about her intelligence, a misunderstanding about what she was capable of doing, because there was a misunderstanding about her upbringing. So thinking about how we can provide feedback that’s going to be supportive and understanding of students who may not have the same lived experiences as each one of us. In the classroom, asking students to be able to provide their own examples, going back and thinking about my daughter and her experiences, they’re discussing in class different traditions they have for Thanksgiving, for the holidays, and having each of the students share their examples, what they do in their household. That it may be that there are different practices that each one of us has, and we may not even realize that they’re going to be different practices. So having students be able to have a voice to share their experiences in, for example, language classroom, students could share the types of foods that they have when they’re at home.
Rebecca: I think along the same lines, the new guidelines provide more focus on development of other things like student goal setting, self regulation, and metacognition. Can you give some examples of ways that you might incorporate these into a class as well?
Chris: So when I think about goal setting, when I think about self regulation, metacognition, the way that I like to incorporate this in the classroom is through reflection. I’m very much a strong proponent of reflective journal entries for students, and especially when in my online courses, I like to have weekly reflective journal entries as students submit one to two paragraphs, just thinking about their learning and how they’ve been learning up until now. And one of the first things we do at the very beginning is goal setting. And so when I think about self regulation, when I think about goal setting, it’s that idea of considering setting goals at the beginning, and how are we going to monitor our progress toward reaching those goals, and how are we going to regulate our emotions? How are we going to regulate our behavior? So in other words, how are we going to use learning strategies that are going to help us to achieve those goals? How are we going to, if there’s a setback, keep going toward reaching our goals? And so for me, when I have reflective journal entries, I like to base them around six dimensions of self-regulated learning. So that’s the “with whom,” the “what,” the “where,” the “when,” the “why,” and the “how” of self-regulated learning. So with whom? Well, basically, at the beginning of the semester, I’ll ask students to say why they’re even taking an online Spanish course to begin with, and what are their goals for the semester? Next week, we’ll be thinking about their learning environment. Where are they studying? Are they working in a distraction-free environment? What are some of the materials that they’re using in order to support their learning? We think about the with whom, with whom are they working? Are they working with other people? Are they asking for help? Are they seeking help when needed, if they have questions and concerns, are they reaching out to the instructor, reaching out to their peers? When we think about the when, another week’s reflected journal entry is to think about how do they manage their time? How do they plan their time? Do they set aside time for studying online? We start to get to our first exam, we think about going back to those goals again. What were your goals originally in your first week, your first reflective journal entry? Do you believe you’re on track to reaching those goals? If not, what can you do differently in order to get close to reaching those goals? So monitoring your progress. Think about how we’re going to change our behavior, adjust our learning strategies, in order to get more closer to reaching the goals we set for ourselves. And so that’s the idea and we’re thinking about the student goal setting that first day of class could be, why are you taking this course? What goals do you have for yourself? In a language course, it’s great because a lot of times our goal is, I want to travel. Or I want to be able to speak to somebody that at this moment I currently am not able to communicate as easily as I wish I could. And then, as we get a little bit further on the semester, we get our first exam back, so we get our feedback on that as we think through, am I working toward this goal? This can be done both online, it can be done a face-to-face classroom as well, and a lot of times we’ll have five minutes at the end of a class session, we’ll have we’ll have just five minutes that we’re not really sure what to do with it. And this is a great opportunity to have a written reflection. In the case of an online course, it could be an option of written versus a video submission for reflection. So we have goal setting, taking that time to reflect on what our goals are. Are we reaching them or working toward them, and what can we do to adjust our behavior in order to get there?
Rebecca: I can imagine that sometimes there might need to be some scaffolding or coaching around goal setting too, because depending on the discipline or shifting between kinds of courses, our expectations may not align with what our goals may even be initially. I want to be fluent by the end of this beginning Spanish class may not be a realistic expectation, and that can lead to frustration or other kinds of emotions that might get in the way of learning if we’re not being realistic about what our goals are.
Chris: And as soon as you were saying that, that was the first thing I thought of too, is in a Spanish 101 course, we’re working in the novice level. We’re beginning. We’re not going to leave being able to speak at a superior level. And this is the opportunity to be able to temper those expectations, to provide feedback to students and say, “Okay, I know we want to reach a certain level, but after four months, we’re only going to be able to reach this level” and to be able to put into clear words, well, this is what we’ll be able to do by the time all is said and done at the end of this course, and say, yeah, that is an opportunity to be able to help to keep expectations in check also.
Rebecca: You have a five-point plan that’s gonna take three [LAUGHTER] semesters to accomplish.
Chris:…but thinking back, even to as a student, I would actually prefer to have a student who has these high expectations and really just wants to shoot for the stars. I don’t want to bring them down, but somebody who has that enthusiasm? Obviously, we take courses to fulfill requirements all the time. We all did that as students ourselves. And so if that’s the reason for taking the course, well that’s great too. That is a reason for wanting to take a course. Wow, if we have someone who has these high expectations, well maybe we want to bring them down to more realistic expectations. But wow, it is also so exciting when you get someone who really wants to learn to communicate in the language and that really is their goal by the time they walk out of the classroom. It’s exciting.
John: One of the things that a number of economists have noted recently is that the rate of change in labor markets seems to have been accelerating in the last 30 or 40 years. A lot of the occupations that made up a large share of the labor force have effectively disappeared, and there’s lots of new occupations appearing. And I would think that this focus on self-regulated learning and so forth would be really helpful in helping students become lifelong learners because the skills they’re developing now might be very different than the types of skills they need in the future. So is that part of the reason perhaps for this shift?
Chris: Definitely, as we, ideally, will be more self-regulated learners, as opposed to other regulated, and being able to be more lifelong learners, being able to then adjust to to be able too, to be more flexible as learners, as you said, in the workforce, we’re in times that are constantly changing, whether it’s new technology, whether that’s going to be new requirements in the workforce. To be able to be lifelong learners, whether that’s through advanced certificates, whether that be through just being able to adjust to changes in technology, then yes, for sure, being more self regulated, opposed to being more other regulated, will definitely be a plus and an important part of how our students are going to be able to make the most when they’re moving into the workforce, for sure.
Rebecca: You just mentioned some new technology, and one of the things that we’ve talked a lot about on the podcast has been AI. And faculty have certainly been concerned about how the widespread availability of AI tools will affect student learning. What are some of the potential benefits and challenges associated with the use of AI in the UDL context?
Chris: So I’ll be honest and say that there’s a lot happening because, as you all know, and it can be difficult to follow change that is happening so rapidly and so a lot of different things that come to mind as I think about this question. The first is thinking about some of the concerns we have as faculty. And it’s true, we do have more concerns about whether or not we can maintain academic integrity, whether or not we’re going to be able to still be able to offer the same types of assessment that will be able to allow for critical thinking for students in the way that we have up until now. And so there are a lot of concerns for sure, when it comes to use of AI. A lot of really great things about it too, though. And so for me, it is a challenge thinking about that balance of where we have challenges, but also thinking about some of the benefits that we have, and especially when we think about benefits in terms of learner agency and learner autonomy, and helping students to be more self directed, more self-regulated learners. AI really does present an opportunity for that. A first thought that comes to mind when I think about my Spanish courses, if we’re completing a chapter of instruction and we’re working toward an exam, one of the most challenging aspects of that exam for students tends to be the composition. When we’re getting to an exam and they have to work on a piece of writing, basically, they’re going to be applying what they’re learning to a longer form piece of writing. And that can be difficult because it can oftentimes be difficult to get feedback on their progress along the way, and thinking about how AI could be leveraged in order for students who want to take charge of their learning, who want to be able to have this opportunity for practice and feedback, is to put into ChatGPT: “What have we been learning about? Here’s a vocab we work with. Here are the grammatical concepts. What are going to be some composition prompts that I might see on the exam? What could I possibly be asked to be able to do?” And from there, you can be writing up your composition and submit it and say, “Well, how did this go? What kind of feedback can you provide in terms of grammar, in terms of vocab, in terms of my overall performance of the task of the prompt you gave me, in terms of my creativity, in terms of how I’ve expressed myself at the 101 level?” So there are opportunities for us to use this to be more self-regulated learners. And I think that part of that comes from teaching students how to do that, to understand what are going to be the ethical ways of using AI. There are still going to be challenges. There are clearly challenges that we’re gonna face as faculty when it comes to AI and lots of transitions that are happening at the moment, but there are a lot of benefits that we could be seeing in terms of helping students to become more self-regulated learners, to feel like they have more autonomy in the classroom too.
Rebecca: Some faculty are reluctant to adopt a UDL framework in their classes because they are concerned that it could require a lot of time. What advice would you give to faculty who express this concern?
Chris: So I’m certainly feeling the crunch of time, and I imagine each of us in this room feels that way too. There’s a lot going on. There’s a lot happening. It isn’t that there aren’t good intentions. Is that there seem to be more and more things that are being given to us as faculty members. There’s more to do. Our days are full. You look at your calendar and you see where the free time is to be taking professional development. When you look for the time when you can make a change to something that you’ve taught 3, 4, 5 times already, there is a limited amount of time. And so what I would say is that one of the best ways to go about that then, if we were to thinking about what’s something we can be doing right away, what can we take from this podcast and be able to make changes in our face-to-face instruction, is to start to think about something small that we could do, that maybe might take a little bit of time now, but could eventually save us some time in the long run. And so I’m just gonna bring it back to UDL and some of the things that I’ll sometimes teach, and some of sometimes teach in some of the workshops that they give. One of the things is providing a model. So when I say providing a model, I’m thinking of a model assignment from a prior semester where a student might have completed a high-quality assignment. If you reach out to a former student, ask if you can share their work, anonymize it, and make it available to students, that takes a few minutes to do at the beginning, but can save you so much time in emails and questions that you receive from students. And so here we have a best practice of giving an example, giving a model to students. And it’s one of those things that can be done in a little bit shorter amount of time, but it can also save time for us in the long run. So these types of things, of building in best practices, can actually save us some time in the long run. When I think about offering a second option for an assignment where, if you can offer a second way that an assignment can be done, it can oftentimes save you, as an instructor, some time too. It may take five minutes to put in a second way of doing that in the assignment directions, but it can save you time. In my online courses, I spent years working with students who would tell me that they had difficulty writing diacritics, accent marks on compositions. And I would set up office hours time with students, and they would come and have extra time at the beginning of semester, and trying to work through, first it was Mac and PC, and then there were Chromebooks, and then there was iOS, and there was all that. And eventually one student said to me, can I just write it by hand and take a picture and submit it to the Dropbox? And then thought to myself, “Well, that makes sense. It all goes the same place. There’s no extra work for me. It takes me five minutes to change all the assignment directions. Why not just let everybody do it? If you want to type it? Great. 90% or so students will type it and submit it; for the other 10% that maybe would potentially withdraw from the course and move on to a different course.” Well, now I’ve retained them because they have the second option. It saves me time. I don’t have these extra office hours on my calendar anymore. I’m not answering as many emails. So some of these best practices of offering a second option that still gets at that same learning objective, these are types of things it can save us time. I think that’s where a lot of challenge comes in, is time. There’s just not time. A lot of times, even for for taking part in a lot of things we wish we could.
Rebecca: It might even bring you a little bit more joy, because you don’t have to have a meeting about how to put diacretics.
Chris: I’m thinking, my reflective journal assignments… I love having a second option of video. So I will get, again, 90% of students will just write one to two paragraphs. Every so often, I’ll get a student who takes me up on the idea of a second option of one to two minutes max on your video. When they do it’s like, “Wow, I feel like I’ve gotten to know this person better.” They seem to be really interested in it. They’ll do it kind of just video blog style, and it’s really interesting. And so yeah, just the joy that comes from a second way of completing an assignment that still reaches that same learning objective. It can make it interesting for us as faculty too. We need that every so often, that little spark of joy that keeps us interested in doing what we’re doing, no matter how difficult it can be.
John: And I’m reminded of Tom Tobin’s suggestion of a “plus one” strategy. Just make one change, and over time, those changes will accumulate, and you’ll end up with courses that are more engaging for students and for you,
Chris: It is sometimes just taking those baby steps. It’s doing something, taking one step, moving the needle just a little bit, because it can be very demotivating if we try and do too much at once. If we try to put too much into place, it will no longer be something that’s going to bring us joy. It’s going to be something that’s going to be demotivating for us and also for the students. If we try and do too much, it can be confusing, it can be blurry. To have too many things going on at once. So trying just little baby steps is in many ways better to be able to just try to start small and make small changes.
Rebecca: I like to remind people that accessibility isn’t an on and off switch, it’s a spectrum. And so you think that you can just turn it on or get somewhere where it’s just on, it’s not really a thing. So if you just remember that it’s a spectrum, and you keep working towards making it better and better, and it’s iterative, then it’s an ongoing process.
Chris: I’ve been working with document accessibility since 2011 and I still learn something new all the time. I have a lot to learn, for sure, and it’s little steps, little things to do to continue to improve, for sure,
Rebecca: Incremental change for the win. So we always wrap up by asking: “What’s next?”
Chris: Wrapping up the semester, winter break, preparing for the spring. That’s kind of where I’m just thinking that light at the end of the tunnel, starting to see it.
Rebecca: It sounds like one step at a time.
Chris: Yes, that’s exactly it.
Rebecca: Well, thanks for joining us.
Chris: Thank you, Rebecca; thank you, John,
John: Thanks. It’s great talking to you, and we look forward to more conversations.
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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.
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