456. Improve Critical Thinking

Students with strong critical thinking skills can make better decisions that have real consequences on their quality of life. In this episode, Michael Bishop joins us to discuss an approach to developing these skills that appears to have a persistent effect on students’ ability to avoid common cognitive biases.

Michael is a professor of philosophy at Florida State University. His research interests focus on two areas: rationality (how should we think about important things) and happiness (what is lasting happiness, and how can we get it). He is also a co-author of a recent study investigating the impact of critical thinking classes on common cognitive biases.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Students with strong critical thinking skills can make better decisions that have real consequences on their quality of life. In this episode, we explore an approach to developing these skills that appears to have a persistent effect on students’ ability to avoid common cognitive biases.

[MUSIC]

John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

[MUSIC]

Rebecca: Our guest today is Michael Bishop. He is professor of philosophy at Florida State University. His research interests focus on two areas: rationality (how should we think about important things) and happiness (what is lasting happiness, and how can we get it). He is also a co-author of a recent study investigating the impact of critical thinking classes on common cognitive biases. Welcome, Michael.

Michael: Thank you. Glad to be here.

John: Thank you for joining us. Today’s teas are:… Michael, do you have tea by any chance?

Michael: No, not today. I usually drink tea in my office, and when I do, it’s usually a Chinese black tea.

Rebecca: Always a nice choice. Today I have an English breakfast tea, nothing that exciting,

John: And I just have nothing that exciting either, a Lady Grey today.

Rebecca: We got to step up our game, John. So, Michael, we’ve invited here today to discuss the field experiment that is described in your co-authored paper entitled “Critical Thinking Classes Can Reduce Common Biases: Results from a Field Experiment.” But before we discuss the study, can we start a little bit with the concept of critical thinking? You teach critical thinking. What are you trying to teach? And what makes someone a good critical thinker?

Michael: Yeah, I think that’s a great question. One of my favorite sayings is the philosopher George Santayana said that a fanatic is someone who, having lost sight of their goals, redoubles their efforts. And so, in teaching critical thinking, I think it’s important to start with an idea of what you want to teach. And so there’s a lot of possible answers. Some people think that a good critical thinker is someone who uses certain rational methods or rules like logic or probability for the scientific method. Other people think that a rational thinker would be an expert debater, someone who can detect fallacies and build a coherent case for their views. Other people view good critical thinkers as virtuous thinkers; someone who is careful, open-minded, curious, intellectually honest, intellectually humble. And I actually think these views are either wrong… so I think that good debaters are often poor reasoners… or incomplete. They capture part of good reasoning, but not everything. So basically, what I am trying to teach in my classes is teaching people to ask good questions. Ask what I call fruitful questions, questions that help us get better answers, not killer questions that end debates, but questions that, if you’re trying to answer them, help get us better answers. So when you view that as the goal, how you go about teaching critical thinking becomes much easier.

John: And as you suggested, people have many different descriptions of what critical thinking is. I know whenever we talked about the importance of this in our Gen Ed program, everyone agrees that critical thinking is extremely important, but they all disagree as to what exactly it is. So it’s helpful, I think, to start with that statement. In this experiment, you’re focused on five common biases. Can you describe the biases that were selected for this study and provide some brief examples of those biases for our listeners?

Michael: Sure. The way psychologists think about these is in terms of biases. The way I think about them is in terms of cheat codes. So there are certain cheat codes people use in debating or in arguments, and cheat code arguments are arguments that you can use to defend pretty much any view you want. And so cheat codes are really tools of manipulation, more than tools of trying to figure out what the truth is or what a good decision is. And so when you think about good critical thinkers as thinkers who can ask good questions, the way I think about it is when you detect a cheat code, when you detect somebody using a cheat code on you, you should be able to ask them a question that diffuses the cheat code and points them in better directions. So let me tell you some of these cheat codes. One I call the focalizing cheat code, and it might go something like this: We should go to war because it has certain benefits, so, if an argument like that, or we should not go to war because it has certain costs. If you’re convinced by an argument like that, I think that you’ve fallen for a cheat code, and the best way to see this is to consider an example where where it’s clear that it’s a cheat code. So, suppose I gave you two envelopes, and I said you can look in these envelopes, and you can take all the money that’s in the envelope that you choose, but you can only choose one envelope. Suppose I open one envelope, see that there’s $5 and I take it without looking in the second envelope. In that case, you’d think that I’ve made a mistake, that I haven’t reasoned wisely about this particular decision because I didn’t look in the second envelope. If I say, “Look, the reason I chose the first envelope is that having $5 is better than not having $5.” It’s true that having $5 is better than not having $5, so there is an advantage to choosing envelope one. But when you think about it, what makes a choice a good one isn’t that it makes you better off than you are now. What makes a choice a good one is that it makes you better off than what else you might have done. Now, economists call this opportunity cost, as I suspect you guys know. And so, one thing I’m trying to do is get my students to, when they see someone argue for, “Hey, we should go to war because it’s going to bring us benefits.” I want them to at least stop and be able to ask the question, wait a minute, what are some alternatives to going to war? Because even if it’s true that going to war brings us benefits, and we can argue about that, but even if it’s true, it might not be the best thing to do, in the same way that choosing envelope one, even though it brings us benefits, might not be the smart thing to do. So I call that the focalizing cheat code. Another cheat code that I teach is what you might call the correlation cheat code. So I say, “Hey, a new healthcare plan is passed, and healthcare costs have gone up 7% a year since this plan is passed. Boy, this plan really stinks. It’s caused our healthcare costs to go up a lot.” This again, the question isn’t is the conclusion right in the war case or in this case, the question is: Is this a cheat code argument? And it is. And the reason is, what you don’t know, and what you really need to know, is how high would have costs been had this healthcare plan not been in place. So again, I say this healthcare plan is great or it’s bad, and I point to something that happened afterwards that. That’s what I call the correlation cheat code because you’re taking this correlation and you’re taking it as evidence for thinking that this policy has caused this particular result. And so again, what I want people to do is just stop and ask the question: “Well, wait a minute. Maybe without the health care plan, costs would have gone up even more, or maybe they would have gone up just the same, or maybe they’d have gone up less.” But unless you ask the question, it’s easy to get manipulated into accepting views that aren’t true. Another cheat code is the regression cheat code. This is a very common one. So lots of coaches and parents think that punishment is effective at molding behavior. I know that when I played sports as a youth, my coaches thought that after a poor performance, if you punish the players by making them work really hard in practice, they’ll do better next time. And sure enough, after a poor performance and after we were punished, we did tend to perform better. But again, the question is: “Did the punishment do that, or was it just a return to our normal level of performance?” So that’s the regression cheat code, rather than just saying, “Hey, maybe you’re returning to your normal level of performance,” saying that “it’s the result of a punishment or the result of a reward.” The third one is sunk cost cheat code, another one that’s a favorite of economists, defending a decision because of the resources already spent on it, so let’s stick with this policy or this war because of sunk costs. Those sunk costs are gone; they’re gone no matter what you do. So you might as well do what’s best for your future. And the last one that we looked at was the gambler’s fallacy, and that is basically treating statistically independent events, as if they were statistically dependent. So, if a coin comes up five times heads, and it’s really a fair coin, thinking that it’s more likely to come up tails next time. So, those were the five cheat codes we looked at.

Rebecca: I think the soundtrack that we have going on with the thunder is really emphasizing that these are cheat codes. [LAUGHTER]

Michael: Indeed, indeed. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: It’s very ominous. [LAUGHTER] Can you talk a little bit about how you chose these particular cheat codes?

Michael: Sure. So this goes back to my view about good reasoning. So 20 years ago or so, me and a friend defended a theory of what rational reasoning was, and what we said was that the good reasoning is reasoning that’s cheap, it’s accurate, and it’s focused on significant problems. And so the way I chose these cheat codes is because I thought that they were significant. That is, people use them to manipulate you when it comes to really important issues. So I see these cheat codes a lot out there being used in the world for really important issues. And the cheap part came in because I think that in thinking about how to teach critical thinking, I think one thing you want to do as a critical thinker is to diagnose the problem. Why are my students thinking badly when they do think badly? And I think there’s three general answers that people tend to think about, although often this doesn’t get talked about enough. So one reason students might be thinking badly is that they don’t know these rules, so it might be an ignorance problem. And if it’s an ignorance problem, then it’s going to be really hard to teach them to use these rules in a way that they keep using the rules after they leave the class. Because not only do they have to learn the rules and learn to apply the rules, but when they leave your class, they need to stop thinking in their old ways and use these rules, which tend to be hard to remember, hard to apply in the real world. And so, one reason that I think studies have not been successful or have had limited success in teaching people to reason well in a way that sticks once they leave the classroom, is that too often we teach critical thinking as if the problem is an ignorance problem. So we need to teach our students new rules. So one reason I chose these rules is that I speculated that they already knew these rules and they sometimes applied them correctly. And if that’s right, if they sometimes apply these rules correctly, then I don’t need to teach them a new rule, and I don’t need to teach them how to apply the rule. They’re already doing that. All I need to do is get them to see that it’s the right rule, and then ask them, “Hey, why aren’t you using it in these cases over here, where it seems like you should still be using the rules.” So, for example, think about the two envelope problem that I talked about before. None of my students think, “Oh, yeah, choose the $5, that’s the way to go. None of them think that. They know perfectly well that the way you evaluate that choice is not in terms of “Hey I’m $5 better off than I am now,” it’s “Hey if there’s $1,000 in the other envelope, then I’m 995 dollars worse off than if I’d have chosen envelope number two.” They all see that, so I don’t have to teach them any new rules. All I have to do is when I say “Hey let’s go to war, it has this advantage,” and if they say, “Yeah, that sounds good,” I can say, “Wait a minute. How is this different from the two envelope problem?” So the main reason I chose these, and these aren’t the only rules I teach in my critical thinking class, but the main reason I choose the rules that I do is that I think that my students already know these rules and at least sometimes apply them, and so when I introduce them to these rules in cases to which they are inclined to apply them, they give me what I call the old bovine stare. They look at me like, “Well, that’s obvious. You’re not teaching me anything I didn’t already know.” And that’s what I want. I want them when I introduce these rules to say, “I already knew that. Why are you teaching me something so obvious?” Because then the next class period, or a week from now, or a month from now, when I introduce an argument where they ought to be using this rule that they said was so obvious and they’re not, I don’t have to say, “Hey, you guys have made a mistake.” I can just ask them, “Okay, wait a minute, you said this rule was obvious, why aren’t you applying it here? Either you were wrong on day one about that rule being the right rule, or you’re wrong right now in not applying that rule.” And so there’s a real sense in which the reason I chose these rules is because I think I’m really not teaching my students anything new. So here’s one way to think about it: rather than teaching them like calculus, like a chain rule, like a new formula that they don’t know, what I’m really trying to do is get them to recognize cardinals. They already know what a cardinal looks like, so I’m just trying to get them to recognize cardinals, and so that’s why I think that the way I teach critical thinking tends to work and is way easier than starting off with the assumption that “Hey, my students don’t know anything, and I need to teach them a whole bunch of new rules.” So that’s why I chose these rules, and that’s why I choose the rules that I use in my critical thinking class.

John: And these are rules that, when you think about them as you framed it, they’re pretty obvious. But in practice, they’re rules that people violate all of the time in their decision making. What really impressed me about the study was that you did get some [LAUGHTER] results out of this because so many studies of behavior modification have been found to be ineffective beyond a very short period of time, often not lasting through the end of the class.

Michael: That’s absolutely right. In fact, one of my old professors, he said this about logic classes, but I think it unfortunately is often true of critical thinking classes, but he said that logic classes teach you to do one and only one thing, and that’s take logic tests. And I sometimes worry that that’s the case with a lot of our attempts to teach people to think better, is that what we’re really doing is teaching them to take tests because they will use the rules on the test. But if you want them to think about this afterwards, I really do think that the main thing is to get them to commit to the rule, and then get them to recognize, “Hey, wait a minute,” to be sensitive to when they see it in the real world because it’s all over the place. Once you get sensitive to it, you start seeing it everywhere. And indeed, one danger of my class, of my critical thinking class that I talk to my students is what I call “the turd in the punch bowl problem,” and that is being a good critical thinker isn’t necessarily going to make you popular, and so you need to be careful about when you point out to people that their arguments aren’t very good, because if you do it too much, you will end up being like the turd in the punch bowl at a party. People will look at you and say, “Oh, I’m going to stay away from that person.” And so, at the end of the semester, I will ask them, “Have you had any turd in the punch bowl experiences as a result of this class? And at the end of the semester, a lot of the students – and I don’t know if this is good or bad – but about half of the cases involve the sunk cost principle, and usually it involves the destruction of a relationship. So people will end a relationship because the only reason they’ve been sticking with the relationship is all the pain and effort and heartache they’ve put into the relationship.

John: And I know behavioral economists have noted that quite a bit. That once they really get this message through, it leads to a breakup of so many relationships of their students. But even people who know these things sometimes fall into these traps. And one example I think I mentioned on the podcast before, and I know I’ve mentioned it to Rebecca, is one time I was at a conference with a few other people, and we went over to Universal park, and it was just really hot that day, it was like 97 degrees, and we had spent quite a bit for the tickets for the day, and we were just kind of miserable. And one of the other people said we should just go. And my response to a historian was that we spent $230 and we’ve gone on two rides. We really should stay and get our money’s worth. And her response was, “But that’s a sunk cost. It shouldn’t matter,” and it’s easy for us to fall into that.

Michael: Absolutely, and indeed, this is one of the reasons I choose the rules that I do, is that I think many of them are significant. They really can make a difference to the quality of your decisions and the quality of your judgments.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about the two-stage training program that was used in class?

Michael: Sure. So I gave you a little bit of an example of it already, but let me give you an example with another case with the correlation cheat code. So my go-to example here is I’ll tell the students, “Well, you know, yesterday I ate chocolate and today I broke out with zits. Boy, that means that eating chocolate causes zits,” and they immediately say, “No, that’s terrible.” So the first stage, what I’m doing is I’m introducing examples where they are disposed to use the rule. So nobody says, “Yeah, that’s great evidence for thinking that eating chocolate causes zits.” And then we talk a little bit about, “Okay, well, what would count as good evidence?” And they come up pretty quickly with maybe just a little bit of help, “Well, you want to know what happens when you eat chocolate and when you don’t eat chocolate, because what you really want to know is what difference does eating chocolate make to your complexion, and so what you want to know is what happens when you eat chocolate and you don’t eat chocolate, and everything else relevant to your complexion is the same, and what difference is there in these two cases,” and so that’s the first stage. The first stage is just introducing them to these rules, these cheat codes. So I give them the cheat code, but really a cheat code which they detect right away as a cheat code, and that they know as a cheat code. And then I spend the rest of the semester giving them arguments that use that cheat code, but are not as easy to detect. And often these are political arguments, and one reason I don’t get into trouble – at least I haven’t so far – in giving political arguments is that these cheat codes you can use them to defend views on the left, on the right, in the middle. They’re tools of manipulation. It doesn’t matter what the truth is. You can use these cheat codes to defend the true view, the false view, smart decisions, dumb decisions. And so, what I’m really interested in doing is getting them to be able to detect these cheat codes. So a first step is just introduce them to these cheat codes in a way that they will be disposed to accept and think is obvious. And then after that, I’ll give them lots of examples in which they’re, at least many of them, are not disposed to think is obvious. And then rather than me sort of coming from on high and saying, “Well, you know, you made a mistake there, dummy.” I just step back and I say, “Wait a minute. We seem to have an inconsistency here. You insisted that this rule was right on Monday, and on Friday you’re not using the rule in this case. What’s going on?” And I have yet to have a student, and I’ve taught 1000s of students, I’ve yet to have a student say, “Okay, I’m going to rethink that rule.” They all say, “Oh, well, I made a mistake here. I reasoned badly,” and by the end of the semester, they’re not reasoning badly.

Rebecca: Sounds like you spend a very small amount of time on stage one and significant time on stage two. Do you do all of the cheat codes at the beginning of the semester and then work on utilizing them throughout the semester, or do you kind of do units on different cheat codes? How do you organize?

Michael: So I will introduce a cheat code and then I’ll give them examples using that cheat code and all the cheat codes we’ve covered. So once a cheat code is introduced, they might see it at any point in the future, and I think it’s really important they keep practicing it and keep being able to recognize it, and not just think, “Hey, I know this is the cheat code we’re working on today, so I just need to be on the lookout for that one.” Another thing I do, and I think this is really important, is I will sometimes give them arguments that are promising, that if you grant the truth of the premises, they at least give you some reason to accept the conclusion. Because I don’t want the students just to be skeptical of all arguments. I want them to be able to distinguish between “Okay, that’s a cheat code. That’s definitely a bad argument. The conclusion might be true, the conclusion might be false, but that’s not a good reason to accept anything” and then “Okay, well, what would count as good evidence for thinking that this is a smart decision or that this policy has led to increased costs or decreased costs?” And I want them to be able to say, “Okay, look, that argument right there, that’s pretty promising. This argument over here definitely uses a cheat code.”

John: So you start off with a little bit of retrieval practice with some applications of the same concept, and then you move into some interleaved practice, which raises the cognitive difficulty just a little bit. But it’s one of those desirable difficulties where the more cognitive effort that students have to place in identifying what is at issue, the more deeply they tend to learn it, and the more likely it is that those concepts will stick and also transfer into other applications, which is what you’re building to in this program.

Michael: Absolutely, absolutely, the interleaved practice is really important, and I wouldn’t go back to sort of the blocking practice.

Rebecca: So we’ve talked a little bit about what the intervention is. Can you talk a little bit about how the study was conducted, like the size of the treatment group, the control group, etc.

Michael: Sure. So in the paper, we really describe just the second study we did, we actually did two studies, and in both studies we had almost 400 students. In the first study we had 395 students, and the second study we had 397 students. And some of the students were taking a critical thinking class from me, and the rest of the students were taking other philosophy classes. So in the study that we report on, we had 113 critical thinking students and 284 control students. Then what we did is, in the first week of class, we gave everyone a pretest, and this involved the five cheat codes, and then two good arguments, or at least promising arguments. They weren’t necessarily great, but they didn’t use any cheat codes. And the reason we included these, what we called skepticism checks, was just to check if all we were doing was creating skeptical students rather than students who could distinguish between promising arguments and cheat code arguments. Then, at the end of the semester, we gave them the same survey, same seven questions, and not surprisingly, in both of the studies, the training group students did much better than the control students. In the first study, we waited three months. So basically, the way to think about it is that these classes all happened in the fall. We waited till the end of the spring semester. It might have been four months, and gave them same questions again in the first study. We gave them the same questions again. The trained students did much better, and then we gave them different questions, and they still did much better. So in the second study we did, which is really the only study that we report on in the article, we gave them pre-test at the beginning of the semester, post-test. Then we waited a full academic year plus the spring, so we waited 16 months and only asked them different questions. So the pretest and posttest were the same questions, and again my students did much much better. But then we waited 16 months and asked them seven different questions, and the trained students were still doing much better, detecting the cheat codes and recognizing that the good arguments were still pretty good arguments.

John: DId the trained students do significantly better with all 5 of these cheat codes?

Michael: No, they did better on 4 of the 5 cheat codes. They did better on the correlation, regression, sunk cost, and opportunity cost cheat codes, but in all the studies that we did, on all the surveys that we asked, we just couldn’t get the trained students to do better on the gambler’s fallacy questions.

John: But still, having students do better on 4 out of those 5 cheat codes so long after the initial intervention is a really impressive result. One of the things you talk about near the end of the paper, though, is that you note that there are some possible sample selection issues. Could you just talk a little bit about what source of sample selection might have affected the magnitude of those results?

Michael: So one worry that one might have is that the students were not distributed randomly. So the students chose to take the critical thinking class, the students chose to take other philosophy classes, and so there might be something about the students who chose critical thinking classes that would incline them to be better critical thinkers, despite the fact that on the pre-tests, all the students in both groups did equally badly. So that’s one worry one might have, and the thing to do there is, although it’s not really easy given the institutions of academia, is to randomly distribute students into critical thinking classes and other classes. So that’s the main selection worry. Another reason why we might have gotten good results is that I had those students for 15 weeks. Some interventions talk about full- semester interventions, but often they’re fairly short interventions. I was able to have the students for 15 weeks and made them practice a lot.

Rebecca: It sounds like in the design of the experiment in your class, just generally, there’s lots of opportunities for feedback and correction throughout the semester.

Michael: Yes, absolutely. There’s a lot of feedback, a lot of correction, and I have a big bank of good and bad arguments that I can give them over the course of the semester that use these cheat codes or that don’t use the cheat codes. And one of the things I do for an essay in this class is ask the students to put themselves in the shoes of someone who’s trying to come up with a cheat code argument and ask them to give me bad arguments that use these cheat codes, and they actually turn out to be pretty good at it. And many of the examples that I use on later students are examples that prior students have come up with.

Rebecca: Sounds like it makes it a little bit fun too.

Michael: Yes, I do ask them for any humorous examples or examples that us boomers would have a hard time understanding. [LAUGHTER]

John: One of the things we appreciated about this study is that the data, the results, and the analyses that were done are all reported in more detail on the Open Science Framework website. We’ll include a link to that website in the show notes for this episode.

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking, “What’s next?

Michael: A few things are next. One is I’m writing a textbook that uses the materials that I teach. The way I teach critical thinking is different from the way other people teach it. I haven’t found a good textbook that teaches critical thinking the way I like to teach it. So I’m currently writing a textbook that hopefully will help other people get good results. I’m also planning to build, if I can, a game that anybody can play to see whether they can avoid being bamboozled [LAUGHTER] by cheat code arguments, this is sort of a longer term project because writing a book is going to be useful, hopefully, for people to teach this. But what’s really important, in my view, what makes this stick is practicing on lots of examples. And so, in a game where people see an argument and you say, “Well, is this promising argument, or is somebody trying to manipulate you?” we’ll hopefully give people practice at being able to detect those cheat code arguments. So those are two of the projects that I’m working on.

John: On the latter project, will it be a board game? Will it be an electronic game? Will it be an online game, or is that something that’ll be decided further in the future?

Michael: No, it’ll be an online game. Is what I’m hoping to do. I want to do something that can be used not just by my students and that’s easily accessible.

Rebecca: Sounds like some great projects. Thanks for joining us today.

Michael: Oh, you’re welcome. It’s been a pleasure.

John: Thank you. I was really impressed by this study [LAUGHTER] because, as I mentioned before, it’s so rare to see effects that are so significant and persistent. It’s, I think, something that people can learn from in terms of other types of issues where it’s hard to convey this sort of long-term impact on students.

Michael: Well, thank you so much.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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407. Covering or Teaching

New faculty often begin their teaching careers by emulating the teaching methods that they have observed, but these practices are often not consistent with evidence on how students learn. In this episode, Chris Hakala joins us to discuss the role that educational developers can play in shifting faculty focus from presenting to teaching.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: New faculty often begin their teaching careers by emulating the teaching methods that they have observed, but these practices are often not consistent with evidence on how students learn. In this episode, we discuss the role that educational developers can play in shifting faculty focus from presenting to teaching.

[MUSIC]

John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

[MUSIC]

John: Our guest today is Chris Hakala. Chris is a professor of psychology and is the Director of the Center for Excellence in Teaching, Learning, and Scholarship at Springfield College. He is the author or co-author of numerous books and articles on the science of learning, assessing learning, large-class instruction, and on teaching centers. His most recent work, co-authored with Leslie D. Cramblet Alvarez is Understanding Educational Developers: Tales from the Center, released in late December 2024. Welcome Chris.

Chris: Well, thanks. Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here and have this conversation with the two of you. So I appreciate it.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are: … Chris, are you drinking tea?

Chris: So this is an interesting thing. I’m routinely a coffee drinker. However, my wife and I every morning get up in the morning and we share time together. We actually have a station in our bedroom where we make coffee and tea. And so in honor of my wife and the tea, I’m drinking her tea, which is a Zen green tea, which I will sometimes drink as well. So yes, I’m having Zen green tea this afternoon.

Rebecca: Excellent. Thanks for ditching the coffee for us.

Chris: Happy to do so, happy to do so. I’ve had enough of it already today.

John: And I am drinking a spring cherry green tea, even though it’s late summer here in Oswego.

Rebecca: It does feel more like a spring day today, though, after being so hot for so many days. I have a weird mix of random black teas because I was cleaning out my tea cupboard, [LAUGHTER] so it’s an eclectic mix.

Chris: Whatever gets you through the day, right?

John: I imagine no cherry teas, though.

Rebecca: No, they are black teas without any weird flavors, John.

John: We’ve invited you here today to discuss the relationship between pedagogical practice and what research tells us about how students learn. First, though, could you tell us a little bit about your path to becoming an educational developer.

Chris: Sure, it’s an interesting path that actually we talk about a little bit in the book, but one of the things that is fascinating to me about this field of educational development is it’s not a field people often go directly into out of college. And so I went to college in Vermont, at a small school in Vermont, went to grad school, and in grad school, I earned a PhD in cognitive psychology from the University of New Hampshire. And I know we’re going to talk about this a little bit more later, but I just want to point out that during that time, we had a course in a seminar in practicum and teaching of psychology, and that course was taught by a faculty member named Victor Banassi, who was doing teaching center work at that time. So it was the first time I began to hear about educational development. It was back in the mid 90s, and so I thought it was kind of interesting, but I went on, I became a faculty member, I received tenure, and then as I was working through my career, I began to notice that many schools had teaching centers. Many schools had the opportunity for faculty to talk to other faculty about what they’re doing and to share ideas. And so I approached our Provost and asked him if we could start a teaching center. And he said, “No, there’s not enough money.” And so I approached him again, and he said, “No, we don’t have enough money.” And finally, I was able to steal an idea from Todd Zakrajsek, who is a name you are probably aware, and Todd recommended me just buying coffee mugs that said Center on it. So I did. I bought coffee mugs that said Center for Teaching and Learning, and I had them branded, and then I handed them out and gave one to the President, and the President said, “Do we have a teaching center?” And the Provost said, “Well, I guess so.” And so they gave me a little bit of money, and so I had this very small teaching center. I would do a little bit for faculty orientation, I’d run some workshops, and it became really interesting for me to see how sharing ideas with faculty about teaching and hearing what they’re saying and what they’re doing and what they’re experiencing with their students was a really wonderful way to engage with my colleagues, to go across disciplines and to really sort of work to improve our students’ learning. So I left there and became a full-time center director in 2014, and I’ve have been doing that ever since. It’s been an interesting process, because as we were speaking off-mic, in 2020 our world changed dramatically, and teaching centers became very important. And it was a really interesting time to see all that work ramp up. And I think now we’re in a different sort of era of teaching centers, as people began to realize the value of educational development when they needed us. Yeah, so it’s been an interesting journey.

Rebecca: I see some sales of teaching center mugs going up [LAUGHTER] with the sneaky strategies for starting teaching centers, moving forward. [LAUGHTER]

Chris: That’s all Todd. It’s all Todd.

Rebecca: He’s always good for a good idea.

Chris: He is good for a good idea.

Rebecca: Most faculty begin their teaching careers without the kind of training that you mentioned that you had as part of your graduate program in evidence-based teaching practices and kind of rely on what they experienced with their own instructors. What are some of the disconnects between learning science and pedagogical practices?

Chris: So it’s a great question. It was really interesting. I’m gonna go back to go back to my experience and sort of talk through that, because I think it’s a great question. I went into my first experience teaching in 1992… by the way, I still have a video of it. I had spectacular hair. It was wavy and flowy… and I went in with this idea that I was now the disseminator of knowledge. I was going to share what I knew with these students, and I did what I had experienced the faculty that I admired do. I lectured. I had an overhead projector, I wrote on the board, and my students were doing the tasks I was asking them to do. They were studying. They were doing well on quizzes and all of that. But what became really apparent to me over time was student learning is not as simple as they just remember things, because there’s more value in students taking what we teach them and expanding that out to other concepts. And so I began to think about it in lots of different ways, and my teaching now looks very different. One of the things that becomes problematic, though, is, as you brought up, Rebecca, many faculty end up in a teaching experience without having any kind of guidance or support. They have very little in the way of reflective teaching, and they think their job is to just share what they know with their students. I hear “covering content” so much from faculty with this idea that they have to make sure they say everything. And I think that helping faculty understand that the magic words coming out of your mouth doesn’t mean a student learns it is a really important thing. And one of the distinctions I draw up with my faculty all the time is this distinction between presenting and teaching. And so I think a lot of faculty are good at presenting, but they haven’t really thought through teaching. And so a lot of times I spend time working with our faculty to talk to them about who they are and what they bring to the table as an instructor, who their students are and how they can begin to find what is going to leverage what we know about student learning in the classroom in the context of who they are and who their students are. So for example, I tend to be pretty expressive in class. I tend to move around a lot. I tend to do lots of interactive things, but that’s also part of who I am. You don’t have to be that to be successful. You can be lots of ways in the classroom, but it’s a matter of understanding that the processes I’m engaged in are to help students focus attention, to help engage them, to draw them in with different anecdotes and stories, to try to tie those things together, and then have them reflect it back to me so we can work through that. People have different approaches, but you have to sort of to be aware of that and know that the student learning is essential. The key to student learning is that they do the work. It’s not that you’re doing all of the work. They’re doing the work. And so you have to help faculty sort of navigate that. And it is fortunate for me. I’m at a small college where teaching is really emphasized and faculty care about it, that I get to work with wonderful people and help them understand some of the things that we know about human learning, and help them sort of integrate that into their classes.

John: And we have lots of faculty who are very interested in improving their teaching, and we also are a teaching focused institution, but there are some faculty who are a little reluctant to change their practices, or consider changing their practices. What are some strategies that you’ve used to help reach out to those faculty who may not see the benefits of changing the way in which they’re teaching.

Chris: Yeah, the recalcitrant faculty problem. It’s a big one. I have had a mixed success. When I arrived on campus, I was fortunate to have someone here who handed me a list of people. On one side was “these people will come to everything you offer. Don’t worry about it. You could roll out a boring thing, they’ll show up.” “These people would come if it’s interesting.” “These people will never darken your door.” And so I went right after the people who would never darken my door and went and had a conversation with them about their teaching. Now, this doesn’t scale up to a big institution because there’s too many people, but in a small institution, it was really effective for me to go talk to faculty, find out what it was they were doing in the classroom, ask them if they were happy with it, and start to look at things in their classes they might want to work on. Now, again, you scale it up to a big institution, you start with departments and ask the department, “what would you like support with?” But one of the things that’s been really helpful for me as a center director is showing faculty things that they can implement, that they can see the impact on, and it’s been simple things. One of the things that our faculty in our health science really like is that I taught them about retrieval practice. They had not really thought about retrieval practice, and so now they’re using tools, including some AI, to build out many little quizzes the students can take on their own that seem to be benefiting the students’ ability to do well on these very high-stakes exams. So it’s a matter of finding the niche where the faculty member’s issue and your expertise can come together. I also strongly, strongly encourage faculty to watch each other teach, which is a really interesting thing. I have an open-door policy. Faculty can show up in my class anytime. It doesn’t matter when, they don’t have to tell me, they can just come. And I have 5 to 10 faculty a semester show up in my class and they just are there, and we talk, and then I go to lots of other faculty members’ classes, and we have an open-door week where we open up classes for faculty to go to each other’s classes. I think that’s really helpful for people to see lots of different ways of doing things. I have a line that my associate director always gets annoyed with when I say, but I believe this. I have faculty who say to me, “Chris, I’ve heard that if you’re funny, students really like it.” And I say “that’s true, but only if you’re really funny. If you’re not funny, it’s terrible.” And I’ve seen faculty try to be funny and they’re not and it fails. So one of the big messages is, “lean into who you are.” It’s okay if you’re a bit of a dork. I love statistics. My students, I get them on board eventually, but I come in with the enthusiasm of someone who loves statistics. So it’s a challenge, and we’re humans. So John, you know, humans don’t always respond well, when you say, “we can help you do something better.” So there’s a lot of nuance to it. I will say teaching centers should never be where bad teachers are sent. I push back against it.

John: We do too.

Rebecca: I think one of the things that’s interesting about teaching centers, and what you said about faculty not having support, is that actually a lot of institutions have teaching centers, so there is the availability of support, but getting said support is not built into requirements or time is not necessarily allocated by the institution to participate in teaching center things. It’s voluntary. It feels extra sometimes. So you talked about your list and individually reaching out to folks. But what are some other strategies to get over this hurdle of helping folks realize that this is a good investment of their time.

Chris: We have some events that are campus wide, and we use these events as a way to try to promote options of how you can interact with the center. So to just give you a couple of examples. Our President is incredibly supportive of the center, so twice a year, we host an evening event at the president’s house, it has wine, that goes over well, and we bring in speakers, and we try to get speakers who will hit a variety of different areas of interest for faculty. And we often will get faculty at those events that don’t come to anything else, but then may come to other events, as they’ve seen the value in those events. So that’s been a good one. Diversity of programming has been really helpful, and I’m super proud of this. We run a summer conference. It’s a week after commencement, all faculty are off contract, and we will get roughly 40 to 50% of the full-time faculty showing up at our Summer Conference off-contract because we structure it in such a way that faculty are talking to each other. We’ve been very fortunate having some really, really amazing outside speakers, and then we give faculty the opportunity to do some chatting with their colleagues, get to see people that they don’t normally see, and that’s been another way. Part of it is having a big footprint on campus, Rebecca, and being involved in lots of things. I go to department meetings once a year. My associate director goes to department meetings. But I will say this, our office also has this footprint, because we not only oversee educational development, we oversee all of instructional design, we oversee all online course builds. We also oversee all student research. We also oversee the IRB. We also oversee sponsored research with our staff of two. So it’s hard to have something on campus that doesn’t involve reaching out to one of us once in a while, and that’s been really helpful. But it is, it’s challenging, because those resources are there and they’re often not used as much as they could be.

Rebecca: I think it’s important to ask how you went from a mug to overseeing that many things.

Chris: I switched schools, that helped, and then… I said this to John… this is 33 years of me being in higher ed, and you learn a lot when you’re just around in higher ed. And I’ve been tenured full professor for a long time, and I still teach, and that actually buys me credibility among the faculty, but I also manage budgets, that buys me credibility among the administrators. So that’s all been really helpful. It’s a needle you have to thread sometimes, and teaching centers are interesting because if you look at it, I mentioned before how we were able to show the utility of teaching centers. But as budgets get tighter and things begin to change across the landscape of higher ed, you’re starting to see teaching centers get shrunk and cut again. I know of at least two teaching centers at major institutions that were simply cut and all the people were fired because of budgetary crises. And I’m actually down four staff members right now, which I may or may not get back. So it is a very difficult time financially, and you work for a state system, so you know what that’s like. You look at the state budget. We were private. Stuff just happens in a private institution. It just happens. It’s not easy.

John: One of the things we found has been helpful to reaching out to more faculty is getting faculty who were in that wave of people who were interested in attending more workshops, having them do things and then present on it to other faculty, because the more faculty hear from their peers about how things have worked and made their classes more enjoyable, the more likely they are to show up and to try these things as well. There’s still some areas, though, that it’s difficult to reach and we keep trying.

Chris: Yeah, John, it’s a great concept you’re talking about, and that’s the Summer Conference. I do nothing at the summer conference but serve food. I simply show up and all my colleagues talk to each other. And that’s really the joy of it, because they see other people, and we have a SOTL fellowship program, and so they’ll present their scholarship of teaching and learning work, and the opportunity to do that is often gonna draw people in. It really is a grassroots thing. And one of the interesting things that Leslie and I saw when we were working on this book is that there’s no one way to run a center. It’s deeply contextualized into the context of the institution and the structure and culture of the institution. And some places have had a long culture and a long history. I was the first full time director at my place here, and by the way. I didn’t say this before, but we’re Springfield, Massachusetts. I know there’s Springfields in every state, and I feel like I’m contractually obliged to say, if you know anything about Springfield College in Massachusetts, we are the home of basketball. Kansas wants to claim it, but we are where basketball was invented, so I just have to say that. My president will be proud if she hears this.

Rebecca: These are important details.

Chris: These are important details.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit more about how teaching centers can continue to help faculty align their practices so that we’re really teaching students how to learn and building that into the work that we’re doing, and help faculty see value in spending some time or allocating time in their classes to that kind of work.

Chris: Sure, the change in teaching practices over the last 30, 40, years has been pretty remarkable, and a lot of it has to do with the changing demographics of students entering college and the changing demographics of people teaching them. And what we’ve learned as we’ve looked at the science of learning is that human learning hasn’t shifted as much, but there are other outside variables. And I like to talk about, with faculty as we discuss these things, the notion that a student is going to walk into your class, any given student with a number of variables that are impacting what they’re doing in the classroom. Some of them you have some control over. Many of them you don’t. One of the things that you can help them with is a simple concept, such as attention. And I always start with attention, because it’s the one that faculty can begin to sort of wrap their head around. And I say you can help by using the classroom space in a way that is not going to cause them to have other distracting variables pull them away. And then I get the same comment, “well, students’ attention spans have changed.” And my response always is, “Nope, hasn’t. Hasn’t changed at all. What has changed is how many things they can be distracted by.” So you have some control over that. What are you going to do about that? And so it’s a way in, and then I can talk to them about… and because I’m a practitioner who does this research too… I can talk about data. Now, by the way, the data always get the bench scientists. They love that, because I’m talking about we have results that show this. Here’s the data, here’s the results, here’s the interpretation of the results. And things like I mentioned, retrieval practice, things like interleaving, or worked problems, the data are pretty strong that these kinds of procedures are effective. Now what is really, for me, the joy is working with a faculty member to see how that particular process works within their class, with their content, with what they’re trying to do, and try to really personalize it to their approach. One of the ones that my faculty seem to really like is this notion of interteaching. It’s a way to help students sort of structure their reading and so students get questions before they read, and they answer the questions, but they come in with two copies. One copy goes to you, one they sit and they discuss with a partner, and they look at where they answered the questions the same way, they answered them differently. They talk about it, and then everyone comes back together and talks about it. It seems like they’re going to not say much to each other, but they actually get pretty competitive about who said what on these things. But the real joy is not that they get it right or wrong, but it’s rather that they’ve thought through these things and now they’re engaging with the concepts in a different context. And I always talk to faculty about the key is to get the students to not just hear it, but to do something with it, to engage with it. And so how you structure that is the most important piece in terms of that they’re doing it, but how you do it is going to vary. So I think that that’s where I get some buy in. But I will say, Rebecca, it causes people to have to change their classes and they don’t like it, because you have your slides and you have your presentation, and you know what you’re going to do, and this opens up the probability, and I say, probability, not possibility, that class is going to be derailed sometimes. That’s okay. I love to tell faculty I teach two sections of intro sometimes back to back, one at eight and one at nine. I might be two chapters apart in those two classes because they’re going at different rates, and I’m okay with that.

John: So you encourage faculty to build in some forms of retrieval practice and interleaved practice, spaced practice and so forth. But sometimes students react poorly when you build that into your courses. Do you have any strategies you share with faculty in terms of getting buy-in from students? Because students, in general, in a number of studies, prefer to be lectured at, but we do know they learn more when they use evidence-based strategies. How can we get students to buy into that?

Chris: I’m going to tell a story while I talk about this. Part of it is being incredibly transparent about why students should be doing these kinds of things. And I think that’s pretty obvious, but I’m gonna tell you a story. I did this study at a different institution, and we never published it. We had two sections of neuroscience, and they both had 60 students. So we had 120 students total. And for the students, for exam one, the students were told in class A, we’re going to teach you how to concept map for studying. So we taught them how to concept map. Class B, study however you want. For exam two, we flipped it and we flipped it all the way through, and what the students found was when they concept mapped, they tended to do better than the other class, and then on their next exam, they did better when they concept mapped then when they didn’t concept map and we showed them the data. We showed them students tend to do better. For the final exam, we told the students, “Pick whatever you want. It doesn’t matter. You study however you want. We’re done with the study. Just study however you want.” They took the exams, and then we just asked them, “What approach did you take?” And the idea was, many of these students would adopt concept mapping, because it worked. Well, much to our chagrin, the number was so low that it was actually zero. None of them concept mapped. They all said, “I know it looked like it worked there, but my way is better.” So you’re absolutely right, John, it’s really difficult sometimes to convince people of these things. The approach I tell faculty to do is to introduce these things slowly into your classes, to build up and get small gains. So I’m a firm believer in formative assessment at various times throughout the semester, including my intro psych class, we do an assessment every class. It’s simple. It takes a minute or two, but it’s a way for me to gauge where they are. And I share the results with the students, and I talk to them about why the results might look the way they look, and I talk to my fellow colleagues about how to try to incorporate that in terms of how they’re doing it. The students, they do not like when you do retrieval practice in class, yet, if you give them the opportunity to build a Quizlet outside of class, they’re all over it, which is really retrieval practice. And so it’s a matter of trying to have that conversation. And it’s one of those things about human behavior, and you’re an economist, you know this. It’s so frustrating. People don’t do things that are good for them sometimes, and it’s frustrating, but you just keep working at it in a variety of ways. I know we’ve had success by hosting student faculty conversations, where the students and the faculty will talk to each other about what is going on in class, and it helps the students understand why the faculty members do things. It helps the faculty understand why students do things. But at the end of the day, it’s incredibly challenging, and I think it’s one of the things that makes this work. We’re going to be around for a while, because we really need to continue to work. And I will say one more thing, it also doesn’t help that faculty are incredibly resistant. And they’re resistant because you try something, the students don’t like it, you back off of it because the students don’t like it, even though it might take two or three iterations for them to like it. So there’s a lot of challenges there.

John: And we’re also coming up against students who’ve had 12 to 13 years of practice before entering college without using those techniques with high stakes exams and so forth. So there’s a lot to overcome there.

Chris: Yeah, and the high-stakes exam thing, we have a large group of physical therapists, physicians assistants, and OTs (occupational therapists), and they all have this national exam they have to sit for. And so they just want the stuff. They just want to know stuff. And I always try to tell them, you could know a lot, but you have a patient in front of you, and this is the example I give. I say, “If a patient comes to you and says, ‘My arm hurts when I bend it up’ and you say, ‘Okay, here’s what you’re gonna do. You’re gonna do this.’ And then the patient comes back says, ‘I did that and it doesn’t help.’ You can’t look at the patient and say, ‘Well, boy, that’s terrible.’” You have to have another approach. You have to have something else to try. And I try to help them sort of work through that. Again, we’re fortunate here. I do go in and talk to almost all the grad students when they go from undergrad to grad, to talk about the application of knowledge. I also talk to all the undergraduates when they show up on campus to talk about some of these things too, with the idea that if we repeatedly talk to students about it and try to help show them, we may get more buy-in. There’s no panacea to this.

Rebecca: I think what you’ve both highlighted is that there’s resistance on both sides. There’s resistance from students and resistance from faculty, because change requires effort, and establishing new habits takes time and effort. But I like the idea of the dialoguing so that you’re working on change from both directions.

Chris: Yeah, and it’s interesting, I always ask faculty, especially like, if they give an assignment and say, “Why did you give that assignment?” And I’ll sometimes hear, “Well, it was time.” Well, that’s not a good enough answer. If you can’t relate that back to what you’re trying to get students to learn, then the students don’t know why they’re doing it, and they’re just doing it, which is the big issue with AI right now, is faculty are like, “Why are students AI-ing my assignments?” They see zero value. You work towards things that you value. You create value in education, students are more likely to work. It’s not guaranteed, but it’s more likely they’re going to do the work.

John: Earlier you suggested that one strategy you encourage is transparency, so that students understand why you’re asking them to do these things. Might that help in getting students to break the habits they’re developing of using AI for so many assignments now.

Chris: Yeah, I feel pretty strongly about this. I’ve done quite a bit of work in the AI field, working with AAC&U as well as with the American Psychological Association. And I think that the transparency with AI, we just have to do it at this point. What we need to do is lean into teaching AI literacy, teaching students about what AI can do, the limits of AI, showing them some of the limits of AI, and allowing them to see this as a tool, not as learning, but as a tool to help them learn more effectively. John, you were teaching at the time. I remember in 1995 we got essentially a graphic browser called Mosaic, and I could actually see the internet versus just typing things into gopher. And I thought my life has just gotten better. It’s just gotten better, and I was able to do things I couldn’t do before. Well, AI has done the same thing. I can’t tell you how many times n ow, when I’m generating a data set for statistics, I give it the parameters, and it just generates the data for me and it comes out the way I want it to. I used to calculate those numbers, and it was terribly difficult to do. Now it just does it, and that takes the time from that for me to give students feedback or do other things. Well, the students, just like with the calculator, can use it in a way, and I’m not saying it’s a calculator. It’s much different than that. I’m not saying that, but it’s a tool that we can use, if we can figure out how to leverage it. But transparency is key. We are talking right now about creating a guidance document through the center that’s going to be shared with faculty and students about how the center and how academic affairs views AI and the value of it, as well as some of the pitfalls and concerns and some of the caveats that need to be around it. Because I think, even if you hate it, and we have faculty who truly hate it, they truly hate it, it’s not going anywhere, and the students have access to it on their phones. It’s there, so we have to figure out what to do with it.

Rebecca: One of the things I want to underscore about what you just said is that you’re going to develop a guide for faculty and students and that you’re going to share it to both parties. And I think that’s a practice that institutions could just do more generally, so that both sets of individuals are getting the same information, because especially around AI like literacy is necessary for all members of the campus community, not just students.

Chris: Yeah, yeah. We have a task force right now we’re running with my associate director, which involves five staff members and five faculty, and we’re going to cycle in some students so that we can sort of figure out what we need to be talking to people about. Our staff, many of them are afraid to use it because they’re afraid that it’s going to work them out of a job. But we say “No, this is gonna make your lives better if you use this.” So we’re trying to work through some of that. But the transparency is really key. I would argue that for everything, Rebecca. I’m a firm believer in being incredibly transparent with my students about all sorts of things that I think help move the learning process along, and that’s been really valuable for me as an educator and with my colleagues as a faculty member, as an educational developer.

John: And one of the things we’ve been advocating is that faculty have these conversations at the start of the semester with their students about what uses of AI are appropriate to see if they can get some degree of buy in. Do you think that might be helpful in convincing students that they should use it in ways that support their learning, rather than ways that serve as shortcuts to their learning?

Chris: Yeah, my associate director, Matt Citron, developed a system for one of our majors because the faculty really wanted it. And it’s not a new system, people are using it, but they just have a system built into Brightspace where an assignment will have either red or green or yellow light saying: red, don’t use AI; yellow, use it with caution; green, do what you want with it. But even before they see that, there’s a whole conversation about what “use it with caution” or “go crazy with it” means, how you’re going to involve that, and what you’re going to do with it, and how you’re going to report what you got out of it to the instructor, so they know exactly where this is coming from and how it looks. Again, It’s a transparency. But, you know, I’ll say this, I am continuously amazed when faculty are trying to sneak things in and trick students, because learning is not about being tricked, man, it’s about being able to do things more effectively. And I even do this, and faculty don’t love this. But when I give multiple choice… I’d really moved away from it…but a few years back, when I gave multiple choice, I told students, look, if you don’t like my answers, give me your own. If I like it, I’ll give you points for it. Or if you think my answers aren’t good enough, and you could write it better, fine. Write it underneath the multiple choice, I’ll read it. I mean, students don’t often do it, but every once in a while they do. It’s not like I have the magic knowledge, that’s the thing. I just know more about this than you do. I’ve learned more, I can think about it differently than you can, but let’s talk about it. And I have conversations with students after exams. I have conversations with students about their papers. I’ve taken to shooting video feedback to all my students on assignments and their responsibility is to give me video feedback, telling me how they understood my feedback and what they intended to do with it. So it becomes this virtual conversation. I talked to my faculty about that. Teaching and learning is an innately humane relational process, and the more we can continue to build that in, the better off our students and our faculty are going to be. But Rebecca, it’s work. It’s work.

Rebecca: It is work.

Chris: It is. I have two classes. I have 67 students this upcoming semester, as well as running a teaching center. It’s a lot of work. I grew up as a first kid to go to college, first one to graduate. I feel pretty lucky to do this job. I’ve worked other jobs, man, I built fences. This is way better than building fences. This is way better than building fences.

Rebecca: Sounds like we’re trying to take them down, actually.

Chris: Yeah.

Rebecca: One of the things that we’re seeing with budget crises across higher ed is sometimes increases in class sizes, and you just talked about how deeply humane and relational [LAUGHTER] teaching and learning is. Do you have some strategies for student engagement and some of that relation building in those larger classes.

Chris: Yeah, it’s a great question, and it’s interesting because at Springfield, and I’m not sure about the size of Oswego, but for us, a big class is like 60 students. Faculty freak out when they hit 60. And the fact is, I think that relational piece is going to look different depending on the size of your class and how you’re able to navigate that. I think part of it is understanding a variety of ways to give feedback. So I tell faculty, in particular with large classes that I would encourage them to do small assignments and give feedback to percentages of students every class to ensure that every student gets written feedback across time, but they don’t have to get all the same written feedback every time. You would never not read a student’s work, but you would give more substantive written feedback to a percentage of your students, but work in ways to develop those kinds of touch points. It’s not always easy. Sometimes it involves using the LMS, sometimes it involves getting there early, but being aware that your students, if they identify you as a human, they’re much more likely to be kind to you. So it’s really a matter of trying to figure out a way to allow yourself to be perceived as a human in students’ eyes. That’s idiosyncratic to the instructor. My students know a lot about my life. Part of it was I was a single dad for six years. I taught with my kid in a Snuggie. There was no way for my students to not be aware of what I was doing. I had a child strapped to my chest. She fell asleep. I told my students, come closer. She’s sleeping. I can’t wake her up. So I’ve always been pretty transparent with my students about lots of things. It makes me human, and I think part of it is allowing the students to see that you’re human too at whatever level you’re comfortable, whatever level people are comfortable, some people are more private. I get that, but I think you have to allow that humanity to kind of show through. I’ll say one more thing about that. If nothing else, you went and got a degree in this discipline. Show your passion for your discipline. Let your passion for your discipline come through however it does for you. I can’t talk about some psych topics without being jazzed. I’m a psycholinguist by training. I can’t talk about language without being super excited about language. It’s fun. I was just in Europe. I was looking at things written 1000 years ago. My camera is filled with pictures of stone tablets. My wife’s like, “What is this?” I said, trust me, “That’s linear B, man, that’s good stuff, right there.”

John: One of the issues that we do hear a lot of concerns from, especially since the pandemic, although it seems to be a little bit less last year than in the previous years, is students seem a little bit less engaged with some of their classwork, that students are more likely just to blow off some assignments and not complete them. And also, many faculty complain about having lower attendance in their classes. You mentioned using polling as a strategy. Are there other strategies that faculty can use to help increase that connection, or to get students a bit more engaged so they don’t disappear on us.

Chris: Yeah. I mean, the mental health crisis has really had its fingers in lots of this, and students’ anxiety has led them to be less willing to chat in class, less willing to engage in class, and with the devices they get to class, and they used to talk to each other, they sort of look at their phones, and so that’s an issue. I am pretty transparent about what I expect my students to do, and I talk to faculty about stating your expectations clearly and being open to knowing that students are going to sometimes struggle with this. I’ve got a couple of simple little tips. So for example, I give this tip to faculty. Have students answer questions and just write them down on a note card without their name, and then they take their note card and they stand up and they walk around the room, they hand it to someone, they take theirs, and then they take that note that note card and hand it to someone else, and then they take that, and then they just pass them around. And then I can call on any student, and all they’re doing is reading the note card, and so that helps them sort of see that it’s okay. I’ll tell you another secret… my students, whenever they find out about this… they get really mad, but I do this. I collect note cards at the beginning of the semester with all my students’ names on it, and I tell them, sometimes I’m going to randomly call on them to see if they know an answer. And they’re always softball, simple, very easy questions. So I’ll shuffle the cards and call someone. I will almost always call a name that is not on the card. I’ll call the name of the student who I know hasn’t said much, but knows what’s going on. So they have a chance to do something in class, be successful, and shine, and then they’re more likely to talk. And students don’t know what name I draw off the card. It doesn’t matter to me. It could be blank cards for all they know, but it’s a way to get the students… and again, as a psychologist, I look for ways to sort of shape that behavior up. Also, I tell faculty: “Get the class early, greet students when they come in, just talk to them.” I don’t know if this happens at Oswego, but this is a Springfield College thing. Our students thank us. At the end of every class, I get fist bumps as my students are walking by after every class. And I’m not unique. Lots of our students do that, and part of it is a culture that has built up over campus, over time, this is before my time. This is sort of who our students are. And so you work with that culture, okay, if the students are gonna do that, then I know they’re polite. Okay, good. Then I can work with that. Your students might be different. You know what they are. You try to work with that. It’s like I say to people all the time when faculty say, “Well, what can I do to be a better teacher?” I can’t pull a book off the shelf and say, “Here, do this.” I have to know who you are, who your students are, and all of that. And so it’s why the field is so much fun. I get to know lots of faculty, and I get to work with lots of faculty.

Rebecca: One of the things that we’ve been talking a little bit about, are some budget cuts in higher ed and teaching centers being on the chopping block? What are some of the things that you’re concerned about in this space?

Chris: So you don’t want to open that door too much. I really appreciate this in part, because I think there is a sense with teaching centers right now that if we let them go, we’re going to be okay. And I think faculty need the resource, even if it’s a perceived resource. My wife and I talk about it all the time. Perceived help is often as useful as the help you get, and so us existing is really important, and I worry that teaching centers are going to start to shrink, and it’s going to make faculty struggle in their teaching. So I hope that we continue to talk about these things and I appreciate having the opportunity to talk about it.

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking, what’s next?

Chris: So what’s next for me? I have an idea for another writing project. I want to look at intentional teaching. I want to talk about barriers that make it difficult for faculty to be as effective as they can be in the classroom, starting with things like lack of pedagogical understanding and going through variables such as student variables, classroom size, physical space, etc. Because I think we need to take a harder look at what we are doing, knowing the stakes are higher than ever at being able to be effective at what we do. We need to be incredibly intentional about creating really strong learning environments for our students to succeed. And I think our livelihood depends on it. Listen, I teach at a small liberal arts college in the Northeast, and have either you ever been to Springfield, Massachusetts?

Rebecca: Yeah.

Chris: So from my office, if there were no trees, I could see two other colleges less than a mile away from me. So there’s lots of schools and fewer students. We just need to be really good at what we do. So I’m thinking about that. The other thing is, I am excited to be building out some additional resources for our faculty that I think are going to support them with short burst sort of faculty development that we’re building with our media team, which has been really fun. So we’ve got lots of stuff coming. We’re excited to get the year started and to do these things and to share them out. I’ve lots of ideas.

John: Well, thank you for talking to us. We very much appreciate the conversation and look forward to future conversations.

Chris: Yeah, thank you both so much, and I appreciate having this conversation. I know that you folks talk to lots of people. I went through, and I just have you know I run every day. You’ve gotten me through many runs, because your times is just about right, so I really appreciate that, and you’ve talked to some people that I have deep affection for. So I really appreciate being part of this, and thank you for all the work that you’re doing for teaching and learning. I think it’s super important for people to hear from these other people, so thanks.

Rebecca: Yeah, thank you. We’re looking forward to sharing out this episode with our audience, and we’re grateful for all the people that we’ve gotten to have on the show, you included.

John: And that’s why we keep doing it. [LAUGHTER]

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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358. Essentials of the New Science of Learning

Most freshman students enter college with little knowledge of evidence-based strategies for successfully navigating the college experience. In this episode, Todd Zakrajsek joins us to discuss a variety of approaches that students can use to more efficiently achieve their learning goals. Todd is an Associate Research Professor and Associate Director of a Faculty Development Fellowship at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is also the Director of four Lilly conferences on evidence-based teaching and learning. Todd is the author of many superb books, and has published six books (so far) in the past five years. His most recent book is Essentials of the New Science of Learning.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Most freshman students enter college with little knowledge of evidence-based strategies for successfully navigating the college experience. In this episode, we explore a variety of approaches that students can use to more efficiently achieve their learning goals.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Todd Zakrajsek. Todd is an Associate Research Professor and Associate Director of a Faculty Development Fellowship at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is also the Director of four Lilly conferences on evidence-based teaching and learning. Todd is the author of many superb books, and has published six books (so far) in the past five years. His most recent book is Essentials of the New Science of Learning. Welcome back, Todd.

Todd: Well, thank you. It’s great to be back.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are: Todd, what do you got today?

Todd: Oh, today I have a white ginger pear.

Rebecca: Nice.

John: Very nice. And I am drinking something similar, a ginger peach green tea.

Rebecca: Nice. I’ve got Cardamon Cinnamon.

John: Nice.

John: We were just talking to you a few months ago about your last most recent book, but we’ve invited you here today to discuss your newest most recent book of the year. Can you tell us a little bit about the origin story of The Essentials of the New Science of Learning: The Power of Learning in Harmony with Your Brain.

Todd: When I worked on The New Science of Learning: Learning in Harmony with Your Brain, that book, its third edition has gotten up to be about 265 pages, and the book was actually written for students. It is still for students, but when it started, the whole concept of this book is it would be used as kind of an ancillary text in a class. And a friend of mine out in California used it in a community college in a developmental math class, and they found, actually, when they used the book in the class, that the attrition rate went down. And for developmental math, that’s a very important concept. In fact, the students who did pass for the next semester, the students who had learned about the science of learning, that attrition rate was even further down. So it’s helped out a lot. The problem is, once it gets up to 265 pages, you can’t use it as kind of an ancillary book. You know, “Read this chapter, it’ll take you 10 minutes.” The New Science of Learning is built more to be like a primary book for a first-year seminar course. So this book, being The Essentials, allowed me to come back and add some new things about AI and a few other things. Is kind of a streamlined version of that that can be used in a class, so that you could say to your students, for instance, “Hey, on Wednesday, make sure you read the chapter on sleep,” and then you talk about the content. When Wednesday comes along, you spend five minutes talking about sleep, what did you learn? And then you move on with the content. And that’s how you can infuse it in the class.

Rebecca: Why isn’t this material taught to students earlier in their education process.

Todd: Aaaah… this is a question that we’ve talked about before with other kinds of science of learning things. It’s frustrating. I take the breath because it’s frustrating. It’s funny, across country, if you ask students two questions: “do you like to learn?” and “do you like school?” you tend to find that the students will say yes to both those questions until they hit right about third grade. In third grade, we start picking up some of the testing and really focusing more on content, and at that point, we start telling students, you need to learn these things, but we don’t tell them how. There just is this assumption that because people are learners, that they can learn it. But learning out of a book is very artificial in terms of how we evolved. So the concept is students should be taught that, and I really believe they should be taught that starting in about third grade. And could you imagine a student that comes into college that has spent eight or nine years learning how to learn along with the content that they have? I think it would be amazing, but typically not done, so it should really be done as soon as they get to college and as quickly as possible. And it doesn’t matter who I talk to. I have talked to students from all kinds of disciplines. I’ve talked to students in medical schools, nursing programs, a lot of the health professions, they do a ton of content really fast. I’ve talked to students in philosophy and history and psychology, and almost invariably, people will come up afterwards and say, “Why doesn’t anybody teach us this stuff?” And so the students see value in it too. We get focused on content, and we don’t tend to do it.

Rebecca: It’s interesting, Todd, that you’re saying that there’s a wide range of people that are hungry for this information because before we were recording, I was doing graduate student orientation. I was talking to a couple of MBA students who had been out in the field, into their career 10 years, coming back to school, and I had embedded some of this kind of information in their online orientation. They said, “Oh yeah, I watched this TED talk that you had included [LAUGHTER] about the science of learning, and it was really great. It was so interesting.” And I had included that study from Michelle Miller.

Todd: Oh, yeah.

Rebecca: And he had read it, and it was fascinating. He’s like, “I was so surprised that I didn’t know some of this stuff.” So we’re talking about it at lunch today, and they were all talking about, “Yeah, that was really interesting. I’m so glad you included that.” But it just goes to show that it doesn’t really matter who our learners are. They’re really hungry for this information, and it’s really valuable to them.

Todd: Yeah, I will say quickly, in terms of the book that a lot of this is drawn from, which is The New Science of Learning, the full version of it that I have at the end is, if you find this valuable, or if you’d like to just ask other questions, I put my email address in there and just send me an email. And I got an email like, three weeks ago from a student who’s going into a health professions field, and he’s going in as a post grad. I mean, he’s going in as a master’s student, and they’re all required to read that book coming into the class, so it’s at any level. In fact, faculty find a lot of the stuff new and interesting to them, so we should teach it to everybody. Somebody should write a book about it.

Rebecca: Huh.

John: And fortunately, you have.

Todd: Hey, [LAUGHTER] me and a couple other people have too.[LAUGHTER]

John: So you mostly focus on effective learning strategies and how students can use the time more efficiently in learning. You also provide a lot of other advice to students about challenges that might arise for different students or students in different categories. Could you talk a little bit about some of the other advice you provide in addition to those directly related to learning?

Todd: Yeah, there’s a lot of other things that I think are really important. There’s a chapter on how we learn and a chapter on how we remember things, which learning and memory are separate, and those talk about the structures and the way we do that, but there’s so many other things that come into play, and a lot of things from social psychology. Everybody talks about cognitive neuroscience and cognitive psychology, but if a person understands exactly how to learn. If you’re really, really frustrated at the time you’re trying to learn, it doesn’t matter the actual cognitive structures, because the social part of it just wipes that out. And so things like microaggressions, how we perceive other people and how we interact with other people, has a huge impact on learning. Stereotype threat, whenever we get in a situation, if we’ve got a person who is a minority within a class. So it could be a male in a nursing program with mostly women. It could be in some discipline that has mostly men with a woman. It could be a student from an underrepresented group. When there’s an individual there that doesn’t typically come into the play, they’re under this pressure all the time that if they do poorly, then it reflects on “Well, maybe men can’t do nursing,” and so there’s extra pressure on them, and they tend to struggle with that. And things like imposter syndrome, almost everybody I’ve talked to at some point or another says that I don’t feel like I really belong, or I don’t feel like I know as much as other people think I know. And so those types of things, along with goal setting and dealing with or helping people who are working. I mean, what happens when you’re trying to work? Huge proportion of our students now work part time, but there’s a large portion also that work full time in addition to being full-time students. So a lot of those things can be drawn into this whole concept, and all those things are in the book.

Rebecca: One of the topics that you discuss is managing cognitive load. Can you talk about some of the recommendations you make related to this?

Todd: Yeah, cognitive load is one of the foundational things. And if you’re a listener and do not understand what cognitive load is, one of the best things you can do is get up to speed on that a little bit. A place to start, I always say, is Wikipedia. And if there was a motto that I would throw in there, it would be Wikipedia, great place to start, and a hideous place to finish. And I just want to point that out there, because there’s some stuff you can get pretty quickly. But here’s the thing with cognitive load, is it basically boils down to there’s only so much information your brain can process at any given time. And if you try to do too much, then it pretty much shuts down enough in one area so that it can process a different area. Be a little bit like if you’re putting together an IKEA bookshelf for the very first time, and your significant other comes into the room and says, “Hey, where do you want to have lunch?” And you may very well say, “Not right now,” and your brain’s just full with all of these parts and how things are supposed to fit together. Once you put 10, 15 IKEA bookcases together, you could carry on a conversation with somebody else while you’re doing it. And that’s an all cognitive load issue. The first time you do something, it is taxing, and it takes extra energy for your brain to sort out all the pieces. But the more you do something, the easier it becomes. And this is why, as an expert, you have to be careful. Because as an expert, I might say to my students, read this article, this 10-page article, and I might read that 10-page article very, very quickly, because I’ve read this kind of stuff over and over and over again, but the novice is going to take way more time because it’s their first time doing it. So we can talk to students about the fact that this is going to be hard when you start, and then as you do it, more and more, it’ll be easier, and that’s a cognitive load issue. As you actually work on things as combinations, as things come together, you build what are called schemas, and those are like scripts that all come together, and as you activate a whole schema, then that’s just there. If I go golfing, I don’t have to think about every little piece of that. Or if I’m driving, I don’t have to think about how hard I turn the wheel and turning on a turn signal and everything else. I have a schema for being in a car and the types of things you do. So as we practice and go through these things, that’s the cognitive load issue. There’s going to be heavy cognitive load, which we have to be cognizant of, and then, as we do it, it becomes easier. And then there’s another piece to this. Is if there’s things in your environment that don’t help you to learn, but they take up cognitive energy, so a conversation by people on the other side of the room, pretty much everybody in here listening this has probably, at some point been reading something, and people are talking, and you either say, “Excuse me, could you quit talking?” Or you pack up and go someplace else. If you’re reading a hard article, that will happen. If you’re reading something like a novel, people can be all over the room talking, and you don’t care. That’s a cognitive load issue. Hard article, high cognitive load, an easy thing, lower cognitive load. This is one I will jump in there and say, too, this is an area that AI has me very concerned. Because as you start anything, you start at the foundational level, and it’s challenging, but as you work with it over and over again, it becomes less and less challenging, then you can move up to more complex things. If AI is doing the simple foundational stuff for us, then we don’t develop that base that allows us to kind of automatically process something, so that we can move to a higher, more complicated thing and then practice that and go to a higher, more complicated thing. If AI is doing a chunk of it, we don’t ever develop the base of it. And so I’m concerned with respect to cognitive load development and how AI might come into play with that, but that’s the two-minute version of a topic that we spend two or three class periods on [LAUGHTER] in a course in psychology.

John: One of the many other topics you address in this book is metacognition. Why is developing metacognition so important? And what are some strategies that students can use to increase their metacognition?

Todd: Yeah, cognitive load is huge. Metacognition is right in there next to it. And metacognition basically boils down to knowing how much you know, knowing how much you’re thinking about something. It’s the process of thinking about the process, and we often don’t do that. It’s actually kind of fascinating when you chat with people, is they’ll engage in a behavior and not think anything about what they’re doing. So we fall into patterns. And so I’ve had students for years that will come in and say, “You know, Dr Z, I’ve read the chapter like four times and I’m still struggling.” And I’ll say, “Well, why did you read it four times?” It’s like, “Well, I need to to learn it.” “Isn’t there any other way you could learn it?” And as I’m asking these questions, I’m trying to bring up a metacognitive concept of let’s reflect on your learning process. If you’re struggling with the material when you read it, it may very well be that two, or three, four more times… In fact, research has shown that you’re probably not going to learn anymore, because if you’re not paying attention to your cognitive functioning, you may very well be reading while you’re daydreaming about something else. And the reason I mention that is that that is not being aware of your processing of information. So again, something that all of us have done, you finish reading a chapter of a book, or you finish reading an article, and just as you get to the end of it, it’s like, “Oh, my word,the entire time I was thinking about bacon or lunch of some kind.” And if that’s the case, you’ve just wasted that time. So for metacognition, it’s kind of thinking about how you’re studying, evaluating it, to what extent are you successful When you sit down and study for an hour, and if you quiz yourself, do you know more or don’t you? So practicing with that, thinking about while you’re studying, what’s going well and what’s not going well. If you’re frustrated in your surroundings and you’re having trouble processing, then you can make changes. If you don’t think about it, you can’t and then also thinking back. So after I take a test or after I study, I can think what went well and what didn’t go well. And that’s all kind of metacognitive things that, because of the way we live, we just don’t tend to do them. And so you know people who will repeat the same pattern over and over and over again, and we use phrases like, “You’ve done this four times, it’s always failed. What were you thinking?” And when we say “What were you thinking?” we’re actually asking a person, to what extent are you engaging in metacognition. But quite frankly, the “What were you thinking?” it’s such an automatic statement that it really doesn’t pertain to thinking.

Rebecca: Feel like a next interesting leap might be to talk about the myth of learning styles, which is something that people often cycle through and say often as well, like, “I’m a visual learner, and this isn’t in a visual style, so I can’t possibly learn it.” And this is something that you address in your book as well.

Todd: Yeah, I think foundationally, first of all, for anybody listening, I’m pretty sure you probably know about learning styles, but if you don’t, there’s a whole concept out there by Neil Fleming came up with this in terms of the learning styles index. And essentially, you take 13,14 quiz questions and you answer these questions, and based on how you answer them, you’re categorized as typically, either a visual learner, an auditory learner, or a kinesthetic learner. A couple of foundational things. Number one, anytime there’s some kind of a test that you can take on Facebook or online or in a quiz book or someplace or even somebody reading 13 items to you, and that’s supposed to tell you how you function as a human being. We’re way more complex than that. Psychologists will ask hundreds of questions to come up with a response that says based on the hundreds of questions that we have, all these validated questions, we believe you will tend to do this. Now, think about that for a second. That’s after a whole battery of tests. They’re saying we think you tend to do this, which has got a lot of hedging in it, which is different than 13 items, “Oh, you’re a visual learner.” So keep in mind that it doesn’t work that way. Number two is that there’s nobody who scores like every item is all on visual or every item is on kinesthetic. If you tend to answer, let’s just say 40% of your answers are on visual learning, and 30% are on auditory learning and 30% are on kinesthetic learning, you’d get categorized as a visual learner because that had the highest percentage. But really it’s a 40-30-30. Why wouldn’t you be categorized as all three? But boxes are easier to deal with, so the learning styles has lots of concepts behind it. Research will also indicate or show you pretty quickly if you read through this stuff, it’s just not how learning works. I would just love to say this, because I don’t want to just say learning styles isn’t good. Here’s the concept Is basically the best way to learn is to practice with the material in a way in which you want to retrieve it. If you want to actually dance, the best way to learn is kinesthetically, by dancing. You might get some auditory or visual information of here’s what the pose looks like, but by and large, you’re going to want to dance. If you’re going to want to be able to recognize certain kind of prints from Monet versus Manet or somebody else in painting, then probably the best thing to do is look at a lot of paintings. Visual would make sense there. Semantic learning, if you want to remember something, you’re probably going to want to read it or hear about it, and so you want to practice it in the way you’re going to retrieve it. The reason people love this concept of learning styles is people love to take quizzes that put them into boxes. I don’t get this, but people take quizzes all the time. Here’s 10 ways to determine what kind of a spouse you are, or five things you can do to figure out what kind of parent you are. We love to do those. And the problem is that learning styles comes along and people think that’s how I learn. And based on what you said at the beginning, Rebecca, when a student says, “You don’t use many images and I’m a visual learner, therefore I can’t learn from you,” they won’t learn from you. But they won’t learn from you because they’re a visual learner, they won’t learn from you because in their head they’re thinking, I can’t learn from you. And when your brain is processing, “I can’t learn this. I can’t learn this. I can’t learn this.” there is so much cognitive load dealing with the fact you can’t learn it there’s no room for learning. So if you think of yourself as a visual learner, I would say, just think about it in terms of you like to use visual things to help you to learn, but there’s a lot of other ways that you can learn as well.

John: Going back to an earlier location in your book, one of the things you talk about as a suggestion for students is that they avoid dichotomous thinking, and you also add in a discussion in the essentials book of generative AI. So this is kind of a mashup of those two concepts. But will the use of generative AI be helpful or harmful for student learning?

Todd: Yes, [LAUGHTER] yeah, the dichotomous thinking, I will say, just to address that very quickly, is that whole concept is that it’s the weakest kind of thinking. It’s basically you put somebody in a box and you don’t have to deal with them anymore, because this is them. That person’s a very aggressive individual. Everything gets interpreted as aggressive because that’s who they are. We don’t stop and think about on a given day, maybe a lot of bad things have happened; on a different day, maybe good things happen. So maybe they tend to be more aggressive, but they’re not just yes/no, you are/you’re not. So AI… people have asked multiple times, is this terrible or is this good? I tell you, everything has nuances. So the bad side, I do think AI is going to be really tricky for us, because humans, in fact, all organisms, will take the easiest route we can. In many respects, we should. If we are going to work and it’s five miles away and there’s a car in the driveway, taking the car makes a lot of sense. So I should take the easy way. However, there’s going to be times when I’m going to want to be physiologically in good shape. I might need to run. I might want to walk up a flight of stairs. I might just want to live for a while, in which case I should work on helping my heart to be better. And the human body is fantastic, and the more you push something, the more it will develop. And so I love to ask students, for instance, I’ll say, “Anybody in here run or jog?” And a whole bunch of hands will go up, and I’ll say, “Why? You got cars. You should just take a car.” And somebody will say, “Well, yeah, but I want to be healthier.” I’ll say, “Perfect. Let’s talk AI for a minute.” For AI, if we let the AI do all the things for us, then we don’t develop those things. And so if I’m taking a poetry class and I just keep having AI write the poems, write the poems, write the poems. It can do it. I can edit them, but I’m not going to learn how to write and how to express myself. And so the issue we’re going to have is, if we don’t learn how to do those things, especially at the beginning level, kind of the cognitive load thing, we’re not going to be able to do them when it’s more complicated. So I think we have to be very careful of that. And for faculty, I think we have to be very careful about focusing on things like academic misconduct. Yes, there are students who will use AI to cheat, but students didn’t start cheating because AI came along. Based on the culture in your classroom, the rapport you have with your students will make a huge difference in the extent to which students will engage in academically honest behaviors. So anyway, those types of things, we’ll watch out for. The good side, there are so many things that this is going to be able to use for good. For instance, we know from study after study after study that the more you practice at something, the better you become. And we have said, I have said for years too, the best way to learn anything is to teach it to somebody else, if you don’t have a family member or a roommate, that you can teach it to, then teach it to a dog, teach it to a sofa, just teach it. And the concept there is, the more you explain something, the better you get at it. AI is beautiful for this, because it can work with you. Actually, I tried something recently I thought was so much fun. I told AI, and the scenario in my head was, I’m a student in a psychology class, and I just learned the routes of persuasion by Cialdini, and now I have to remember how this persuasion all works. Well, one of the best ways to do that is to practice with it. And so I fired up ChatGPT and the prompt I gave it was, “Hey, how about if we do a role play? I’m going to be a car salesman, and you’re going to be in the market to buy a car. You do have enough money, you could buy today, but you want to be a little cautious, because you want to get input from your family, and you want to make sure you get a good value and get the kind of car you want. So overall, if I really can sell you, you’ll buy, but otherwise you’re going to wait. What do you think?” And then ChatGPT typed out, “This sounds like fun. Can you show me some vans?” And so then I said, “This is a van,” and I started to sell it. Now, the reason I’m mentioning this is that I could use all my different persuasion techniques that I learned, and ChatGPT kept asking me questions back. So I’d say this van has something about scarcity. Here’s a good one for scarcity. It’s one of the principles to persuade people. I said, “Whis is the last van on the lot. And so ChatGPT said, “Oh, that’s unfortunate, because I’m really interested in the van. Is there a possibility of getting another one if this one sells before I actually sign the paper?” And now what ChatGPT has just done is to see if they could reduce that concept of basically a quantity issue of scarcity. If this is the only van, a human would basically say, “Oh no, it’s the only van. I better get it before somebody else does,” so with ChaGPT, it says, “Can you get another one from a different lot?” And if I said, “Yep”, then the scarcity goes down a little bit. So then I have to think, “Oh, how can I bring scarcity back in a different way? It’s on sale, but the sale is going to end at the end of this week, so we’re going to have to make a decision fast… that scarcity in a sense of we don’t have much time. And so the point is that I role played with ChatGPT for about 20 minutes on these principles of persuasion. We’ll be able to do that. We’ll be able to do simulations. We’ll be able to do repetition. I can say to ChatGPT, and I’ve done this one. “Give me 10 multiple choice questions about metacognition for a student in a second-year college course, and the course is on the basics of cognition.” The better prompts you lay out there, the better it will do. It asked me multiple choice questions. And the last one I’ll mention for this, because there’s so many different ways you could do it, I actually gave it a definition of metacognition. I wrote out kind of what it is, and then I just put it in ChatGPT, and I said, if I answered a question of “What is metacognition?” with this response, and I was a senior in a cognitive psych course, because it’s different from being a first-year student, but it’s going to give you feedback: “If I’m a senior in a cognitive psych course, what grade would I get?” And I purposely made it bad, and it said you would get an “F” on this. And then I said, “Why?” And it explained a couple reasons why. And then I rewrote it, one of the best responses I could possibly dream up. And then ChatGPT said, “this is a good solid A minus.” And I said, “Why is this an A minus?” And it pointed out that I hadn’t done very much on the reflective component. And I thought, “hmm, alright, I did miss that piece.” And so when I can practice quiz questions like that, I can have it ask me multiple choice questions. And much like Khan Academy, when Sal Khan came up with Khan Academy, he said, one of the things that students love about this is you can go and watch the same video four or five times, and it doesn’t get frustrated with you. ChatGPT, you can struggle with learning a concept, it’s never going to get frustrated with you because you’re struggling. Whereas a human might say, in their head, it’s like, “Oh my word. You should have gotten this by now.” So I know that was a very long answer. It’s a huge, huge issue in education right now, but we can’t be focused on the academic misconduct side of it. We really need to be focusing on how can we use it to instill deeper learning?

Rebecca: That’s a nice transition to one of the other topics that you have in your book, which is maybe something that faculty might be interested in knowing is in your book, [LAUGHTER] which is that you advise students to spend two hours outside of class for every hour they spent in class, which is definitely an expectation, I think, that many faculty have, but it’s not always conveyed to students. I know I mention it to students, [LAUGHTER] but can you talk a little bit about that?

Todd: Yeah, so I put it in there, and it was funny because it was a section I put in the book, and one of the reviewers looked at it and said, “Why did you put this in here? And then it was funny because the editor was reading the book and said, “I love the fact that you put the breakdown in there about how much you should study and how much time you should commit, because people don’t normally know this stuff.” And so I put it in there because I think people struggle with this, and for students to understand, if it’s a course that requires extra work and things, if it’s a three-credit hour course, you’re expected to do two hours outside for every hour inside. This is the way the system was built up. So a three-credit hour class is going to take you about nine hours a week. The three hours in class, then the two-to-one ratio will give you six hours outside of class. This is why, if you take 12 to 13 credit hours, or 13 to 14 credit hours, it’s considered full time, because 13 credit hours would put you up around 39 hours total, when you put all the hours together, and that’s a full-time deal. And by the way, just so I don’t forget this, or I put it off to the side, if it’s an activity course, something you wouldn’t do anything outside, that’s why a one-credit hour class might meet for three hours, like a jogging class or something, racquetball class, because there’s not outside work. The two-to-one ratio kind of thing, all of that’s done in class. So that kind of gives you a sense of how much you should be studying. Here’s the tricky spot, nobody does it. I shouldn’t say nobody, very few people do it. The reason is that a lot of students can get by with studying less than two hours outside for every hour inside class. And when students will say they don’t need to, or faculty will say they don’t do it, and people focus on the fact that, “Well, you know, students don’t really have to spend that much time.” I love to respond with, oh, so they all are getting 100% on their quizzes and tests and perfect papers, right? And to that, we say, “Well, not really.” System’s set up that you expect a lot of B’s and C’s and D’s. Well, what if you spent two hours outside for every hour inside? It would be a very different thing. But the problem again, is, “Whew, if students are not spending the two hours outside for every hour inside, and then you are, then it seemed like you’re taking more time, and you feel like, why am I spending all this time when they’re not?” And so we look to other people, and unfortunately, we don’t do that. But I can tell you, for students, if you do actually sit down and study for two hours outside of class, for every hour inside class, and do it before the class period. When you walk in, you already know material there. You understand the foundation of it. And if the instructor is doing a good job, they’re pushing you and showing you connections and everything, you can process that because you have the material. If you walk into class after skimming a Chapter, you don’t have the foundational material to make the classroom more effective for a learning situation.

John: I was really happy to see that advice there, because I tell students the same thing, and they always seem really, really surprised. Or in an online class if you tell them they should expect to spend nine hours there, there’s often an even larger surprise, because they think it’ll take as much time as what they spend in high school, which is often zero outside of class and with an online class, zero doesn’t work very well, especially. So I’m glad you included that. But one of the other things you include in your book in terms of advice to students is you talk about various fallacies, and one of those is a sunk cost fallacy, which is something that we talk about quite a bit in economics, especially behavioral economists. So could you talk a little bit about this fallacy and how it might affect students?

Todd: Yeah, sunk cost is something that I always covered in psychology, because I love the concept, psychological concept. It’s really important a sunk cost basically just simply means, how much energy or resources have you put into a course of action. That’s basically it. How much have you sunk into this thing? The problem is for humans, is we overestimate the value of that. If you’ve worked on a paper for six hours and it turns out you’re heading in the wrong direction, best thing you can do is pitch the paper and just start over. But people say, “Well, wait a minute, I’ve put six hours in on this. I must be able to salvage something of it.” And I watched a woman on television years ago, and I think it was Ukrainian eggs. It was when they hollow out the eggs, you get the insides out, and you cut half of it away, so you’re dealing with, like a little half of a shell. And they do these beautiful, intricate things inside the shell. And she pointed out, she said, “If you ever drop one of those, the best thing you can do is stomp on it,” because if you drop it and it cracks, you try to fix it, and you spend so much time trying to fix it, because the sunk cost is, “I’ve already put hours into this,” then you waste a lot of time trying to fix it, your better bet is just to throw it away and start over.” And that’s why she said stomp on it, so you’re not tempted to do that. So in your work, we’ll do this all the time. We try things, and we get all this investment… we might be in a class that’s just we’re flunking the class, and this is always hard, and you always want to always talk to an advisor if any students are listening, or tell your students always talk to an advisor before you ever drop a class, because it can have ramifications, especially if it drops you down to part-time status. But if you are going to flunk class, the best thing you can do is just stop working in that class. Take the F if you’re past the drop period, and just focus your energy somewhere else. And students will often say, “but yeah, but I’ve already put so much time in this.” And when I was teaching intro psychology, this is a particular one is students would come in with like, 50% average and come into the final, and I’d say, it doesn’t matter, you’d need a 98% to get a passing grade. You’re going to get an F. And the students say, “Well, yeah, but I put so much energy this I’m going to try” and I’ll say “If you’ve averaged 50, you’re not going to score above an A plus. It’s just not going to work. Take your time and study for your other classes and then come back and take this class next semester.” So we do this a lot. We have people who will stay in relationships because they’ve been in relationships for a while. So it’s like, I’m gonna hang in there when, you know, maybe it’s the end of the relationship. We’ll have people that put so much money into a car they’re gonna keep driving it. It might come to a point you just need to get rid of the car. So sometimes we’ll chase a course of action because we put so much money into it. The one thing I do want to point out, though, that’s important, is that sometimes sunk cost is very helpful. So if we’re in a job, for instance, that we’ve been in for five years, and we run into a really rough spot, we might say, “Well, I’ve been working pretty hard. I’m working my way up in this. I’ve got a lot invested. I’m going to stick this out.” A relationship’s another good example. Relationships do have rough times. And if you have been dating someone or married to somebody for a period of time, then it’s like, “I’m going to get through this because I have so much invested.” So a sunk cost can help you if down the road, it’s a good thing to stay in, but you’d be tempted to leave. College is a good example. I mean, junior year, a lot of people would quit, but it’s like, “I’ve already got three years in, I’m going to finish.” But at other times, we’ve got so much in, and it’s time to cut it loose. And this is the part where I love to tell people, when I was an undergraduate, I was a criminal justice major at first, and then I switched over and double majored with psychology, and then I ended up with a psych major and a criminal justice minor and a sociology minor, and I am one class short of having a bachelor’s degree in criminal justice. And every time I tell that, there are people in the group that says “You should just take that class,” and I’d say, “Why?” And they say, “Well, because you’re one class short, you’ve got all that invested.” And to that, I get to say, “At my age, I’m getting close to retirement age. I’m never going to work as a police officer. I don’t even think those credits would count. But even so, what I did is I got to a point where I thought, is it worth it for me to spend a semester to finish this when I don’t believe it’s anything I will ever do. I worked with a police department for a short period of time. At the end, decided I just didn’t want to go that route. There’s no reason to finish that.” But even listening today, if I tell you, in an entire bachelor’s degree, I just need one more three-credit hour class, the inclinations to say, “Well, you should take it.” That’s a sunk cost.

Rebecca: As I’ve been listening to you talk today and thinking about the things in your book, and I was also thinking about a lot of the things that some of our faculty panelists said at our graduate orientation, I was very happy that a lot of those things aligned. That’s always good. And one of the things that came up actually at orientation was the recommendation from one of our panelists to really think about some wellness things like sleep and exercise. And that’s something that came up and eating well, which is something that is in your book. Can you talk a little bit about some of the benefits of having adequate sleep and engaging in exercise that you talk about in your book?

Todd: Yeah, it’s funny, because when I’m talking to students, especially, if there’s quite a bit of material, there’s invariably somebody will say: “So if there’s just one thing I should really work on, we’ve talked about the testing effect, practicing over and over and quizzing yourself. We’ve talked about things like interleaving, where you mix materials together, or spaced learning, where you space it out. And for memories, is to practice over and over types of things, and to say, “Which one should I really focus on?” I said “sleep.” The best thing you can do to be better at learning is to make sure you have a good chunk of sleep. Not only as a restful person, do you process information faster, but while you’re sleeping, you actually consolidate memories. You could study all day long, all through the night. Take a quiz, and you’ve all done this at some point, do okay on the quiz, because that’s right during the learning period, come back a week later, or final exam, for sure, and it’s like none of it’s there. Well, it’s because after you learned it, you never slept, which allows your brain to consolidate it. We actually now know that different stages of sleep will consolidate certain semantic like meaningful things. A different stage of sleep will solidify and consolidate repetition, like movement, so the kinesthetic things. So the physiology of what your brain does is really important. By the way. I was just reading something the other day too. I can’t cite it here, because I didn’t know I’d be talking about it, but it talked about the correlation between low levels of sleep and later cognitive decline, because while you sleep, the brain kind of flushes out all of the toxins, so to speak, and all the stuff it doesn’t need. It consolidates the stuff that’s important. It gets rid of the rest. And if you don’t sleep, a lot of that becomes muddled across time. And so sleep, physiologically, is just an amazing thing for you. And so that’s a really, really important thing. Exercise is another one. Regular aerobic exercise is just good for the learning process. I had a student that told me one time… it was funny, we were chatting about this… and said he does the best learning during basketball season when they’re exercising all the time. Coach makes them sleep an adequate amount, because it impacts your play, of course, and if it impacts your play. It probably impacts your learning too, right? So the concept there is that he said he always did better during basketball season because he was sleeping better and exercising better. Eating is the same thing. We know that simple sugars are not as good as complex carbohydrates. There’s actually ways that we can process this in terms of memory, and it doesn’t take very much liquid at all. If you get dehydrated, a little bit of dehydration, you have cognitive decline. In fact, it’s funny, because if you talk to somebody who is a health professional and you say, late in the day, “Man, I’m just confused and really having trouble processing things,” one of the first things that will ask you is, “How much did you drink today?” So it does have an impact on that. So, adequate hydration, not too much, but the right amount there, good nutrition, sleeping and exercise, those are four ways right there that you can actually impact your learning of material in classes… oh, and your health. I’d like to point out too that it’s one of those things that’s got the best side effect there is: it’s really good for learning and it’s also good for living.

Rebecca: One of the key tips that came up from our students and our faculty was to actually schedule some of those to make sure you’re doing those things.

Todd: Oh, totally. Yeah, eating too, I have to admit for myself, especially when it’s hot out. I didn’t understand this when I was younger, but I can eat breakfast and work outside in the yard, come in, drink a little bit, go back out, sit down and read a book and do some stuff, and realize at eight o’clock at night’s like, “Oh my word. I didn’t eat today,” and so I’m suddenly hungry, but then it’s late, so you’re eating at eight, nine o’clock, which is not ideal. But if you schedule it while you’re busy, and stick to it. If you’ve got it scheduled, you’re gonna eat at one o’clock or noon, and the bell rings summarize where you’re at, go eat, and then come back and then pick it up from there. Because if you think “I’ll just finish this section and then I’ll eat,” there’s been lots of study through the years that says that’s not as good as stopping, noting where you are and then coming back for most people.

John: And one of the things you talk about in your book is scheduling. And you also suggest there that you include a little bit of slack, because things don’t always take the amount of time that you anticipate. Could you talk just a little bit about that?

Todd: Yeah, I kind of laugh about this one, because, yeah, people are hideous at estimates. Almost everybody is. But I will tell you, folks with ADHD are particularly bad at it. And part of the issue you run into with ADHD is it’s not just that you’re distracted, is that you’re thinking to yourself, I will do this task, it will take like, 40 minutes, and then I’ll go do this other task. When I got tested for ADHD, after three questions, like, we’re good, we know exactly where we’re at. Anybody who knows me says you don’t need any kind of test. We’ve known that for years. I wish somebody had told me 10 years ago. But the reason I mentioned this is that I’m working really hard at some metacognitive kind of process of estimating how long it’s going to take me to do something. I set off the block of time. When the timer goes off, then I think about: “What did I do? What worked well? What didn’t work well?” That process takes seconds to do, by the way, it’s like, okay, “did it work or didn’t work?” And then if it does work, I think about what I did to kind of set that up. And if it doesn’t, I think about that. But I will tell you that I will often start out with a to do list of 10 items, and I’m sure that I’ll be done by noon, and so by 6pm I’ve gotten through three of them, and I still have seven to go. So I put those seven on my to do list for the next day, and then, because I am a super genius… I always use that phrase whenever I follow it with something that’s not super geniusy… but I’ll take those seven items and I’ll just put them on the to do list with another 10 items, and then I got 17 items that I’m going to do tomorrow, because that’s going to be easy to get through them. I’ll just do them really fast, and then I get through like five things. As you practice at that, you can actually practice at estimating how long things will take you, put it into a schedule. I did this was an intro psych class. It was one of the most impactful things I’ve done. Is the teacher had us keep track of one week in one-hour blocks. Like, if you sleep for eight hours, you block off and say, I slept. But then if you read, you put a block in for reading, and while you’re awake during the day, he had us doing metacognitive exercises too. You estimate how much do you think you’ll get done? How well did you do? And then you just put a grade in the block. So if it’s going to be I’m going to read the to read this chapter in this two hours, and I get through half of the chapter in the two hours. And I’ve done this other stuff, I get like, a D. And what I found was that I’m very effective in the morning, from about 6 am until about 10 am I can cram through… oh, it’s just so good. And then I find out that from about 2 to 4 pm I’m just awful. I have enough extrovertness in me that if I’m talking to somebody, it’s fine, but if I sit down to read something or work at something, it doesn’t work. So I schedule these things in. So I’m kind of coming back to the schedule, but I schedule these things in, but also try to make estimates of how long things will take. I will finish with this, tell your students, or ask your students, I guess, at the beginning of the semester to keep track of, as they read the first couple pages in every book, jot down, after five pages, how long did it take you, and figure out the average amount of time it takes you per page. Because students don’t understand this, and they’re not good at estimating their time. And I’ve had students before who are going to tell me, for the final exam, they’re going to reread all the chapters. And I say, how long is that going to take you? And they’ll say, “I don’t know.” And I’ll say, “The exam’s tomorrow. What do you think it’s going to be?” And students will tell me that they thought they could read a chapter in an hour, or the whole book in like six hours. And then they find out that their average is eight minutes a page, and say, “Alright, well, at eight minutes a page, you’re not going to read a chapter of 35 to 40 pages in an hour.” But the point is, it may be that you have a novel in English class that you average one minute a page. You might have a physics book where you average 20 minutes per page, and you might have a philosophy book where you average five minutes a page. If you know that, you can make some estimates. And so talk to your students about making those estimates. But rolling that all together, kind of figuring out estimates on how long things are going to take, and keep working at it, and then using metacognitive strategies to think about when it’s going well and not going well. And I’m still working at how to do this.

John: And that issue of cascading to do lists, one of the things I found is that there’s a lot of to do apps that you can put on your smartphone, and when the list gets too long, just start another one.

Rebecca: That’s what I do. [LAUGHTER]

Todd: Well, there’s a great strategy that I really do like. You list the really important things as A’s and then B’s and then C’s. And the one strategy I read one time was great. It says, Put all your things on the list, put down your A’s, your B’s, and your C’s, and then delete all your C’s. [LAUGHTER] And so it’s that same kind of a thing as at the end of the day, they’re not going to get done, just pitch them. But yeah, we put too many things on the list. I’m trying right now. Actually, I’ve reframed it in my head, and I’m desperately trying to put down the amount of stuff that I think that I can get done by noon, and I still block off eight until 6pm but I put my to do list thinking this can get done at noon. If I get done at noon, you know what? I’m only gonna work a half a day. And when I’m better at it, I’ll probably put more items on the list. But for right now, yesterday, I still was working till 8 pm on my stuff that should have been done by noon. An another little tip I’ll give you… I’m getting better at some of these… I always make up my to do list now just before I go to bed, when I’m as tired as I can be during the day, because if you make a to do list in the morning when you’re feeling really full of energy, then you’re very optimistic. If you do it when you’re exhausted, it’s a little closer. [LAUGHTER]

John: I believe that behavioral economists refer to this phenomenon of underestimating the amount of time required for a task as the planning fallacy, and I believe that I’ve heard that the people who are most productive underestimate the amount of time required by more than other people tend to, otherwise they’d never undertake many of the tasks that they engage in. There was a Freakonomics episode on it that I just listened to recently.

Rebecca: In my design class, I have students keep time sheets for their projects and things, and that helps them become more aware of how long it takes them to do different parts of projects, so that if they were to take on freelance work or whatever, they have more of an idea of how long it actually takes them to do things, so that they could more adequately charge for work if they were to do that.

Todd: Rebecca, that’s a really, really important skill to teach them, because you could make up your mind you want to have a design company or a landscaping company, whatever it is, and if you’re hideous at estimating time, you’ll be out of business very quickly. When you explain to somebody, “Yeah, I’ll cut your loan on every week, and I’ll only charge you $20 because I think it’s going to take 10 minutes,” and then it turns out it takes two hours. You can’t stay in business like that. So I think that’s a great skill. See, we started out with the why don’t we teach these cognitive things early? This is one of those that you are doing, which is great. Teach them how to think about time.

Rebecca: Well, we could talk about really important things we could teach students all day long, but we do need to pay attention to our time, which we are not always good at doing. [LAUGHTER] So we always wrap up by asking: “what’s next?”

Todd: Probably just the last items on my to do list is next, [LAUGHTER] but right after that, I’m working on a couple things. So one of them is a book on lecturing and active learning. The research does not say that the active learning is more effective than lecturing. The research is very clear that says, when you combine the two, lecturing with active learning, it’s more effective than lecturing alone. So I’m working on a book that’s balancing the two. And then the other one is, I’ve really become pretty passionate lately about people that are not built for the way the educational system’s built. I love to use the phrase that education is kind of built for fast-talking, risk-taking extroverts. I’ve got that in the book, and actually in a couple of the book. And the idea is in class when the teacher says, “Could somebody tell me…” there’s hands going up before you actually get to the end of this question even from some people, individuals who think really fast, who are okay if they’re wrong, they’re taking a shot at it, and they’re extroverted in that they like to really have the energy to be around people. If you’re not one of those individuals, you’re actually at a disadvantage all the way through the educational system whenever something’s run like that. And so the other thing I’m working on right now is, how do we help the individuals who are shy, who are on the autism spectrum, who maybe have depressive episodes, individuals with food insecurity, housing insecurity, all these types of individuals who walk into a classroom and when they do really well, it’s because they’re doing so much more work. I should be careful. I don’t want to discount the people who are working hard in the classroom, but there’s individuals who are working way harder than other individuals, and there’s got to be a way to balance that a little bit. That’s what I’m working on now too.

Rebecca: Sound like really important, interesting projects.

John: And will those both be ready this year, or [LAUGHTER] will it take a little bit longer for those?

Todd: Probably Tuesday, I think… maybe Thursday. It’s interesting. I will say that I really love writing. It’s obvious, I’ve got several books out now. But I work with an editor. I have my own editor that I’ve hired now, and the reason I did that is because I’m not an editor. And what I used to do on books is I would write something and I would spend more time trying to edit it and get it to sound right than I was actually writing. And so the reason that I’m kind of cranking books out right now is I write it, I send it off to my editor, my editor reads it, comes back to me and says,” I like what you did here, but you might want to change that.” And then I just zip into the next thing. So it takes me about four months to write a book now. And so I would suspect that we will see one of those heading off… well, it won’t be too long.

Rebecca: Must be there on the early part of that list, that stuff before noon.

Todd: When I mentioned that keeping track of the day, it’s a really, really important thing. It’s because, yup, that’s exactly what it is. My writing time tends to be between 7am and 10am and then all my committee meetings are in the afternoons.

Rebecca: Prioritize.

Todd: Yeah, it’s like recording this show. Huh, look at this, 3:46 pm… Ha! Right, between two and four.

Rebecca: I did notice that. I was making that note,

Todd: Uh huh, I knew you were. Boy, we should do this sometime at 10 am You wouldn’t believe how fired up I am the.

Rebecca: Alright, but that’s when I prioritize my writing and doing stuff too.

John: We always enjoy talking to you, and we’re very much looking forward to talking to you about those next books as those approach,

Todd: I always love coming to this program. I get to sip my tea, which is always good, and chat with two of my favorite pod people.

Rebecca: Thanks for joining us, Todd.

Todd: Thanks for inviting me.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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293. Study Like a Champ

The study strategies that most students use may be helpful in passing high-stakes assessments, but do not generally support long-term recall of fundamental concepts. In this episode, Regan Gurung and John Dunlosky join us to discuss a new resource they have created that is designed to help students develop more efficient study strategies and improve their metacognitive and self-regulatory skills.

Show Notes

  • Hacker, D. J., Dunlosky, J., & Graesser, A. C. (Eds.). (1998). Metacognition in educational theory and practice. Routledge.
  • Gurung, Regan and J. Dunlosky (2023). Study Like a Champ: The Psychology-Based Guide to “Grade A” Study Habits. American Psychological Association.
  • Pashler, H., McDaniel, M., Rohrer, D., & Bjork, R. (2008). Learning styles: Concepts and evidence. Psychological science in the public interest, 9(3), 105-119.

Transcript

John: The study strategies that most students use may be helpful in passing high-stakes assessments, but do not generally support long-term recall of fundamental concepts. In this episode, we discuss a new resource designed to help students develop more efficient study strategies and improve their metacognitive and self-regulatory skills.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guests today are Regan Gurung and John Dunlosky. Regan is a social psychologist and is an associate vice provost and Executive Director of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Oregon State University, He is the author of over 120 peer-reviewed articles and has co-authored or co-edited 15 books. John is a professor in the Department of Psychological Sciences and the Director of the Science of Learning and Education Center at Kent State University. He co-authored the first textbook on metacognition and has edited several volumes on education. Regan and John are the co-authors of Study Like a Champ, which was published earlier this year by the American Psychological Association. Welcome, John and welcome back, Regan!

Regan: Thank you.

John D.: It’s great to be here.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are:… Regan, are you drinking tea?

Regan: Just water because it is a scorcher here in Oregon. So water, and lots of it.

Rebecca: Hydration is important. How about you, John?

John D.: No tea for me for about five years, I used to really be addicted to oolong. And now I’ve gone full espresso. [LAUGHTER] Water for me today too. It’s a little bit late for espresso on the East Coast.

John: And I have an Irish Breakfast tea today.

Rebecca: Oh, John, you’re really pumping up the caffeine today. Also on the East Coast,

John: My day started at 5:30 this morning…

Rebecca: So did mine.

John: …and it’s going to be going really late. We’re in the midst of grading here, we’re recording this a little bit earlier than it will be released. So we’ve invited you here today to discuss Study like a Champ. What prompted you to create this book?

Regan: So both of us have been teaching for a long time, both of us do research on teaching and learning. And I think both of us really like taking stuff from the lab and testing it in the classroom. And, I think, as passionate teachers, we noticed that we knew the stuff, we knew what students should be doing, we told our students what they should be doing. We even tried to design our classes in that way. But clearly, we needed to do more of it. And the impetus behind this book was let’s put these expert tips in the hands of students everywhere. We didn’t want it to be just those students who had teachers like us who talked about studying, we want it to be in student hands. And that’s where it came from, specifically driven by the fact that even though there’s some really neat stuff out there on learning, very little of that, if any, is written to the student. And that’s something right from the get go when John and I first talked, we agreed that this would be in a voice that would speak directly to students.

John D.: Absolutely. In fact, I think that was the main impetus because of all the wonderful books and volumes out there on learning sciences. And just too many of them, I think, appropriately so written for teachers. And often they tend to be a little bit fact listing because of that. In other words, I’m going to tell teachers everything there is to know about learning, which can be overwhelming. And what Regan and I wanted to do is kind of find the most effective and best little snapshots of the learning sciences to share with students, the things that we think will move the needle the quickest, so to speak. So by no means do we tell students everything there is to know about the learning sciences, but we hope we tell them the best stories to get you back onto the learning track, so to speak.

Rebecca: So you begin your book by discussing a variety of widely believed learning myths. Can you talk about a couple of these myths?

John D.: Sure, one of the biggest and I really don’t think this holds true for college students, but K through 12, definitely, it’s just the myth of learning styles. So, we all have learning preferences. I certainly have preferences. I wish my instructors would sing to me all the time and do my learning through music. It’s just that’s not going to help me learn calculus, and so forth, where really hard work needs to be done. So it’s natural to accept a myth like that, because it makes everyone feel good. It really can also undermine learning because it makes us want to do things that are more aligned with our preferences, but sometimes misaligned with most effective practices. So that’s kind of one learning myth, which I hope, in 10 years, if we were to have this discussion again, it would not come up because it was completely dispelled. But there are a variety of others too, that I think can undermine student success too.

Regan: And I think something else, that we really tried to put ourselves in students’ shoes, and we built on what our students said to us. And another one I wanted to highlight in response to that question is so often I think our students think that learning is up to us, if they have a good teacher they learn. If they have a bad teacher, they won’t learn. And undoubtedly, teacher effectiveness is important, but it’s also up to the student. The student has to do something, the student has to take accountability. And early on in chapter one, we show that at least half of the variance half of the accountability for learning is in the student hands. Teachers are also responsible, but really, if a student isn’t doing their bit, then learning is not going to happen. And now once you are ready to do your bit, well the rest of the book tells you what to do. But you’ve got to realize that don’t just sit back and go “Come on teach. Do your magic.” We all like doing our magic. But we can do all the magic in the world if you are not joining us in this adventure, and I’m thinking adventure a lot, because Zelda Stairs of the Kingdom just got released recently, and my household seems to be quite into it. So yeah, join us on the adventure.

John D.: Absolutely. Let me just jump in with one other learning myth that really gets me, and it literally gets me, because I fall prey to the same thing. That’s if you’re struggling, you’re not learning because it’s frustrating. And I often try to pick up new skills, I’m teaching myself to play the guitar now. And I struggle, and I get frustrated, I want to throw my guitar down because things aren’t happening. And I have to remind myself that sometimes it’s the struggling when you’re doing the most learning. And if we could allow students to realize that if you’re not struggling, you actually may not be learning, and that you should embrace the challenges, the hurdles that are in front of you. And it turns out, some of those hurdles are embracing the most effective learning techniques, which produce struggles in learning, but yet also produce the best long-term outcomes. Whereas other ways to prepare for classes and so forth, the way I’d like to teach myself to play guitar, makes it seem very easy. But then there’s really no progress being made. And if there’s any method I could really want to undermine, that would be a major one, that sometimes struggling is a good thing, not all the time, and it’s up to the students and the instructors to figure out is this a good struggle or bad struggle and how to correct that.

John: Those times when we try to give students desirable difficulties, they often find those to be somewhat undesirable. And I often get comments in my course evaluations that “he’s making us learn it ourselves.” And my response is always “Well, I can’t really learn it for you, I can give you the tools, I can give you resources, I can help you learn this material, but ultimately, you have to do the learning.” Going back just a little bit to your comment, John, about learning styles, I had a discussion in an online class, which is mostly upper-level students. And about three quarters of the students in my class were very strongly convinced of that myth of learning styles. So it hasn’t gone away. We hope it ma, but it is very pervasive, certainly in K through 12, where they’re regularly testing it, but some of the students have mentioned that they’ve been tested here at the college in some of their classes. And it’s again, really frustrating to see that, but it’s pretty pervasive.

Rebecca: Yeah, I was struck too, John, when you were talking about both learning styles and the struggle, because as I was working with mostly graduate students this semester, I had those exact conversations with those students. But it may have been the first time that they’ve really come up with some barriers that they faced in learning, and really had to reassess how they were working towards their goals.

John D.: Absolutely, and nothing but utmost compassion for students and sympathy, because in many ways, the experiences they had before college allowed them to use ineffective strategies and still get by. So things didn’t seem like a struggle, the difficulty now, the first time, then you hit a struggle, when you really have to change strategies or techniques, you may not realize what to do. It might seem frustrating and overwhelming, when in fact, now’s the time when the real learning begins.

Rebecca: Yeah, and I think sometimes when the subject matters new, as well as the strategies are new, students can immediately feel a little cognitive overload. [LAUGHTER]

JOHN D. Absolutely.

John: And part of that I think may be related to how they’re often taught throughout their whole career. In general, much of the advice they get in elementary and secondary schools, and sometimes in college, encourages them to adopt strategies that may not be that effective. Often, people still use high-stakes exams. And people don’t do a lot of interleaved practice or spaced practice, which are things you talk about really nicely in your book. And the incentive structure for students is perhaps to favor things that align well with short-term recall without that longer term learning. And your book can help, if we can get students doing this, but it seems to me like we also have to do a bit more work and getting faculty to adopt some techniques that may encourage students to use techniques that are more effective. Might this be something we could build into our classes a little bit?

Regan: Actually the riff over a couple of different things you said, John, I think there are two things going on here. One is, a lot of the issues that we run into with our students are actually pretty easy to pinpoint. And that is high school. And when I say high school, I’m not saying “Oh, high school teachers,” I’m saying the whole high school environment. One of my favorite examples is the syllabus. Many of us college and university faculty complain that students don’t read the syllabus, and I had a great conversation with my 17 year old. I was talking about the syllabus and he said, “Yeah, the syllabus is useless.” I said, “Excuse me?” and he said, “Here’s what we do with the syllabus. We spend a whole day, a whole day, reading through every word on the syllabus, but the syllabus is not really designed to help us learn.” And I looked at his syllabus. And sure enough, the syllabi he had didn’t really map on to the best practices that many of us listening employ. And I could completely see why he had that whole. “Yeah, I’m not going to read the syllabus when I get to college. I said, “And of course, you will now,” but it was a great conversation where I really got to see the mindset. And I think that’s just one example, where a lot of this happened, where it’s like, let’s see, what have they just been used to? Then add on top of that, how learning changed during remote learning. That’s another whole mix to the whole issue. And then, add one more, the misinterpretation of, I think, learning styles. Before we started this call, we were joking about the fact that our book is now in an audio version. Now, because it’s an audio version, does it mean the auditory learners will be better than those….? No, it just means that sometimes when you want to listen to something that works well, other times reading something works better. So it’s not this whole “Oh, look, there’s this one modality and I’m a person of this one modality.” And I think that preference that John D. so nicely used… it’s preference, right? …and we have preferences. But let’s also not forget the take home message of that Pashler et. al 2008 study, which is the more styles that you use…. And here’s where it goes back to desirable difficulties, mixing it up, is actually better for learning, no matter what your preference may be.

Rebecca: Oh, but mixing it up is so uncomfortable. [LAUGHTER]

John D.: It makes things a lot more difficult, right? One advice I would give too, that my teaching has changed dramatically, as I’ve gotten more into learning sciences. And at least for someone who teaches, I hate to say this, a non-essential course course that I love and courses that I love for undergrads, I realized I was teaching them too much. So I put them into almost a defensive mode, where the only way to prepare, because they were overwhelmed, is to cram as much as they could and hope to pass the exam because it was a tsunami of information. So over the years, I’ve followed the model, less is more, it’s up to me as the instructor to figure out what is really essential, and how to give them just as little as possible to make their experience as large as possible. So that they then can use the techniques to learn the content well enough so that they can keep that content with them a lot longer period of time. So it’s really kind of changing styles. Now, don’t get me wrong, if I’m teaching chemistry to pre meds, and you need to know chemistry, then you need a different approach, because there’s a lot to learn, it’s difficult, and aspects of our book really focus on how to meet those challenges too. And I think students, just like instructors, need to pick and choose where they want their battles, you don’t have to ace everything as a student, but decide what you really want to do well at, and then use the most effective practices to nail it as you work forward toward a long career and lifelong learning.

John: One of the things you include early in your book is a list of what research finds to be effective and what research finds to be ineffective, side by side, which for faculty use could be really helpful except for some degree of similarity between those two lists. Could you just talk a little bit about that.

John D.: I like to think about it, as much as I’ve not talked about it like this, as more or less effective versus effective and ineffective. And I’m not gonna like reference to that table necessarily, but let me talk about one that I badmouth a lot, which is highlighting as a learning strategy. And like Sharpie has not contacted me with a lawsuit or something because it sounds like I don’t want people to have highlighters. And what we mean by less effective as a learning strategy here is, is that using a highlighter is just the beginning of a learning adventure and not the end of it. So there are great uses of a highlighter of rereading material, of these things that really don’t lead to a great deal of learning, because they kind of are the stepping off point or the catapult for learning, so to speak. So is using a highlighter ineffective for learning? Absolutely, it doesn’t help you learn the content that well. But what I recommend to students: to highlight everything they want to learn as kind of a different approach to that strategy, so that they then apply the most effective strategies in learning it. Yes. So as much as we kind of play off ineffective to effective, it’s more like every strategy in its right place. And some strategies that can be generally ineffective for very specific uses might be relatively good, and what I think Regan and I try to do, because it’s way too much to think about if you’re not a learning scientist, like one exactly show us the specialty strategy, but we try to focus on are just strategies that students could learn just more generally to do well in any particular content. So kind of low hanging fruit, so to speak, where you don’t have to be a learning scientist to make decisions about which specialty strategy to use in every place. But here’s some kind of fail-proof strategies that can help you anywhere.

Regan: I want to actually say there’s that flipside too and John, this is something you asked about earlier when you talked about teachers changing what they do, and I think John D, and I joke about the companion volume to this is Teach Like a Champion. But I think the nice thing about that table of high utility and low utility strategies is that it’s not just the student who needs to be aware of the fact that some are high and low. But I think we take it further to say why are some of those high and low, and then here’s the key companion piece, which is, we hope that instructors reading this can also take those tips, and be ready to share different options with the students. Because I know both John and I have compared notes on this, when a student comes to our office after an exam who’s not thrilled with their score, who has not scored well, we both do some pretty intensive. “Alright, so tell me exactly what you do.” Just that conversation is so important. We both ask to see their notes. And of course, every once in a while a student says I don’t take notes. Well, let’s start right there. And that’s why we have a whole chapter on note taking, and why take notes and how to take notes. But I think that’s exactly it, is so many of us. and I’ll say us, not just our students, so many of us are so used to doing things just one way that we’re not ready. And we don’t look enough about is this really working or not. And I think that’s what we really push with a lot of very real examples ripped from the headlines of our lives, as it were, where we talk about, look, this is what somebody’s tried, and here’s what they did wrong. And here’s how they can make it better.

Rebecca: I wanted to talk a little bit about that chapter on notetaking. Faculty often make the observation that students don’t take effective notes, but then don’t necessarily respond by teaching students how to take notes or giving them some strategies to improve that skill. Can you talk a little bit about some of the things that finally might show students or offer students to take more effective notes?

John D.: Absolutely. So the one thing that I would recommend highly is that if we all agree that taking notes in its own right is not where the learning occurs. And in fact, research comparing people who take notes versus who don’t take notes typically showed no differences between the two. Now, the key is, when you look at these studies carefully, you’ll realize the folks who took the notes, and who didn’t take notes do equally poorly. So it’s not like they do equally well. So the notes are a artifact that in many cases students can use to really learn the content well. So the question is, how do you get all the correct and appropriate information into those notes? So one thing that teachers can do, that research shows really helps well, it’s just flag important content, literally tell students “Okay, time to take notes, this is critical, I need you to know this.” One of my favorite statements, ”The next thing I say, will be on the exam.” [LAUGHTER] And see how many people start taking notes. Now, of course, I would love to see notes that are embellished with examples, with questions, and so forth. But at least getting the rudimentary content down there as an artifact, so students have it to utilize as they’re preparing is so important, or having teams of students take notes and share those things as well is also good. So I think for teachers to be compassionate, but also to help your students sometimes identify what’s most important, by speaking louder by saying, “Hey, this is really critical.” Sometimes I have to even flag it to not only just critical, but it’s going to be an exam, you’d think those two things meant the same thing, but sometimes students need a little help. I think it’s important, and there’s nothing wrong with telegraphing what is most important in your class. In fact, let me restate that. There’s everything not right about not telegraphing. Now, try to parse that. But what I’m saying is, we should be telling the students what they need to learn, how we’re going to test them on it, what we’re going to test on, and allow them to meet those successes. And I think good note taking, and helping students take notes by telegraphing what should be in there, can be very useful, in my own experience, and at least some of the research too.

Regan: Notice what else is in there. If we do want students to take good notes, we don’t want to be talking extremely fast. We want to make sure we have pauses, we want to make sure our slides, to the extent we use them, are not so packed with information that either they want to copy it all down or they get it all as a handout so they don’t have to, but there are all these nuances. And I want to go right back to that finding about the students who take notes and the students who don’t take notes. The bigger issue is what are you doing with those notes? I think far often students just think about it as “I’m going to record what the instructor said.” Well, you’ve got to go back and revise them. You’ve got to go back and check and see if your understanding is right. You need to review them. The issue is, I think, when people take notes, they’re not doing enough with those notes. And there are ways where we can talk about how to take better notes and they’re not. When I teach 100, or intro level classes, every once in a while, I will stop, and I do this during the first week, I will stop. And I’ll say, “Alright, here’s a reality check. If you took good notes, you should have the following. How many of you have it in your notes?” And I do that a couple of different times that first week or the first two weeks to get into that habit of you should be taking notes, you should be doing something about it. I also want to say something that didn’t make it into that chapter on note taking, but it’s gone up another shot, because I’ve seen this so often, in the last year and a half or two years, students taking photographs of the slides. Reality check, people, that’s not taking notes, taking a photograph of a slide is not taking notes. But I think in some students’ minds they’ve taken notes, just more effectively. And there are studies now rolling out that show that the photograph slides versus note taking versus controlled no notes. that the photographs and no notetaking is doing the worst on quizzes. But I think that’s something else we’ve got to take up” how you take notes is important and taking a photograph is not it.

John D.: Let me spin back to something that Regan said that I think is great, too, as far as helping students develop better notes, I begin, and I know Regan does this as well, every class with a no-stakes quiz. And I use that for a variety of different reasons, some of which we talk about in our book, but one of them is first try to answer the quiz multiple choice question without the alternatives from memory. And if you got it from memory, that’s important, because that’s going to help you learn. And then if you don’t get it from memory, now see if you can answer using your notes from the last class. And if they can’t answer the question using their notes, we have issues. So they’re not taking complete notes, they don’t understand their notes, or the issue could be with me. Occasionally, I look at the notes and realize, “Oh, my goodness, I must have said something wrong last class, because everybody’s notes are incorrect.” [LAUGHTER] And if everyone’s notes are incorrect, the source of the error is probably me. So it’s a way to help students understand that the notes are the vehicle to understand the content that we really want them to learn. And there’s ways to reinforce that through no-stakes quizzes, and so forth to help them understand that what we’re doing in the classroom is providing all the scaffolding to help them succeed.

John: One of the things you emphasize early in the book, and throughout the book is the importance of students developing their metacognition as well as their self-regulation skills. Could you talk a little bit about why that’s important, because I think that’s something that’s not emphasized enough throughout their educational experience,

John D.: I’m gonna just focus on one aspect of our particular viewpoint on self regulation, and then I’ll let Regan go with the more fun stuff. I want students to really succeed in school and in college. But quite frankly, as a college educator, I want students to succeed in life after they leave here. And one of the most important skills that anyone can learn is time management, that’s about self regulation. And believe it or not, I have actually students tell me, it’s like, “Well, I know, managing my time and developing plans, that’s just not my cup of tea.” (speaking of teaching for tea). But it absolutely should be, because effective people develop goals, plan on how to get them, and manage their time to get there. So if students can take something from this book that I think is highly valuable about self regulation is to look at our examples and our encouragement and inspiration to manage your time, make goals and plans, and develop a time management strategy that works well for you. Because that’s ultimately going to lay the foundations for a successful use of other strategies we discuss in the book, but also for a highly successful life, whether it be success in your job, your hobbies, raising a family, or whatever, successful people manage their time and self regulate. That’s something that we really do push in the book, and some of it’s not necessarily metacognition, per se, but it’s about really taking ownership of your life and deciding how to get things done effectively. So time management, for me is so important aspect of this book.

Regan: I think whenever you think about self regulation, I really try to stress two elements of it on one hand, especially think about metacognition is the: “What do you know? Do you know this stuff?” And there’s that whole “Am I ready for this exam? Do I really understand this concept? Do I know how to do this?” That’s the classic metacognition, but even more broadly, when we talk about plan and monitor and assess your knowledge, that’s, I think, really important as well. And of course, the tips such as retrieval practice is great for the assessment too and to assess yourself. But I think I love the way John talks about time management because when we talk about self regulation, a big issue that I hear from students a lot is where those two things interact, not being able to regulate how they use their time, especially when it comes to social media. And students will say to me, “Yep, I start scrolling Tik Tok, and before I know it’s an hour later. Well, that’s a basic self-regulation issue. That’s a time management issue. That’s a planning issue. And I think in our planning chapter, we recognize this and we tell students “Look, it’s okay to enjoy social media. But guess what? Plan your social media timr. So it’s not like you’re saying, I’m not going to use social media. Be real. If that’s what you enjoy, sure, look at some social media, but plan it out, allocate time for your social media, just like you allocate time for your work so that everything fits into your schedule.”

Rebecca: Allocating time, it feels like have a lot of conversations with students about that on a regular basis.

John D.: Oh yeah.

John: Are there other topics you’d like to emphasize about your book that we haven’t touched on yet?

Regan: Well, I think one thing that if you’ll notice, the last chapter in our book is all about things that, for the longest time, nobody thought related to studying: sleeping, eating, physical activity. But I think that is just so important. That is so important. And gosh, I know, I don’t think I ever shared this with John. But sometimes I almost played with putting that chapter first. We did put it at the end, because I think it’s really important. But I think most students don’t realize how those life things interact. And I think for those of us who read up on higher education, there’s just so much written about burnout among students, among faculty, and all of that relates to those things we talk about in the last chapter. It’s prioritizing sleep and prioritizing good eating and prioritizing physical activity, prioritizing just getting out and getting some air. And some of my favorite comments that I get back from students… it happens a lot when I teach health psych… but even otherwise, where they will say, “you know, yeah, I caught myself scrolling, I went outside for a walk, and it was just five minutes, but I came back and I could tackle things better.” And I think, people, it’s 360 degrees of living is what we’ve got to practice.

John D.: And I love that Regan. Because obviously, we saved the best for last with that chapter. But, come on, to do all these things. It’s a time-management issue. If I’m going to work, all of this in, how can I do so so I have enough time for play and I have enough time for work, which are two important aspects of life. So, totally agree.

Rebecca: Well, they always wrap up by asking: what’s next? [LAUGHTER]

John D.: Wow, that’s a big question. And what’s next, I would say for me, the strategies that I think are most effective, that work the best, unfortunately, have also been investigated the least, because they’re difficult to investigate, they involve multiple sessions for students to engage the same material, and so forth. So as someone who was kind of born and raised in a laboratory, either my own lab or laboratory of the classroom, what I’d love to see is just much more evidence-based research focused on further understanding, not only what works best, but how students can engage in the best practice in the most efficient way. So it’s balancing both an understanding of wanting students to obtain their learning objectives, but also understanding that they want to do so effectively and efficiently. Because there’s so many aspects to life beyond just school. So I’m always going to say more research, although I could totally understand some would say more application too, but I’m gonna go what’s next is some more research and all these really effective techniques and how to use them more effectively.

Regan: And it’s that last part, John, that is what’s exciting me right now, I’ve been learning a lot more about the whole field of implementation science, which is just because something is effective, and something is efficacious, what are the factors that influence its implementation? …because whether it’s a student reading our book and trying to implement our recommendations, or a faculty member, instructor, teacher listening to us and trying to implement what we’re saying, there are still nuances, there are still contextual factors. And I think we’re just getting better at intentionally and systematically teasing apart what some of those issues with implementation are. And for me, that’s been pretty exciting. I was fortunate to read a lot of a fellow Oregon State University, new PhD, Dr. Rachel Schweitzer, who’s done a lot of this work on implementation science, and some of her ideas. I’d love to be able to test them in my class, to dovetail with continuing research on study techniques and how to make it happen more,

Rebecca: Some really important stuff that needs to happen, for sure.

John: And thank you for this book and all the other research and work that you’ve done in support of improving student learning.

John D.: Thanks for having us on.

Regan: Thanks so much.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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289. The Cognition-Motivation Connection

Emotions can have both positive and negative impacts on learning. In this episode, Michelle Miller joins us to explore the relationships that exist between emotions and learning.

Michelle is a Professor of Psychological Sciences and President’s Distinguished Teaching Fellow at Northern Arizona University.  She is the author of Minds Online: Teaching Effectively with Technology and Remembering and Forgetting in the Age of Technology: Teaching, Learning, and the Science of Memory in a Wired World. Michelle is also a co-editor, with James Lang, of the superb West Virginia University Press series on teaching and learning.

Show Notes

  • Miller, Michelle (2023). “Revisiting the cognition-motivation connection: What the latest research says about engaging students in the work of learning.”  March 3.
  • Miller, Michelle (2022). “Ungrading Light: 4 Simple Ways to Ease the Spotlight off Points.” The Chronicle of Higher Education. August 2.
  • Remind
  • Transparency in Teaching and Learning (TILT)
  • Sathy, V., & Hogan, K. A. (2022). Inclusive teaching: Strategies for promoting equity in the college classroom. West Virginia University Press.
  • Ariely, D., & Wertenbroch, K. (2002). Procrastination, Deadlines, and Performance: Self-Control by Precommitment. Psychological Science, 13(3), 219–224.
  • Abel, M., & Bäuml, K. H. T. (2020). Would you like to learn more? Retrieval practice plus feedback can increase motivation to keep on studying. Cognition, 201, 104316.
  • McDaniel, M. A., & Einstein, G. O. (2020). Training learning strategies to promote self-regulation and transfer: The knowledge, belief, commitment, and planning framework. Perspectives on Psychological Science, 15(6), 1363-1381.
  • Miller, Michelle (2019). Attention Matters. Tea for Teaching Podcast. Episode 86. June 19.
  • Michelle Miller’s R3 Newsletter
  • Sarah Rose Cavanagh’s Once More, With Feeling substack
  • Cavanagh, S. R. (2016). The Spark of Learning: Energizing the college classroom with the science of emotion. West Virginia University Press.
  • Cavanagh, S. R. (2023). Mind over Monsters: Supporting Youth Mental Health with Compassionate Challenge. Beacon Press.

Transcript

John: Emotions can have both positive and negative impacts on learning. In this episode, we explore the relationships that exist between emotions and learning.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Michelle Miller. Michelle is a Professor of Psychological Sciences and President’s Distinguished Teaching Fellow at Northern Arizona University. She is the author of Minds Online: Teaching Effectively with Technology and Remembering and Forgetting in the Age of Technology: Teaching, Learning, and the Science of Memory in a Wired World. Michelle is also a co-editor, with James Lang, of the superb West Virginia University Press series on teaching and learning. Welcome back, Michelle.

Michelle: Oh, thanks for having me. It’s great to be here today.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are:… Michelle, do you have some tea?

Michelle: Well, not exactly. I’ve started hydrating with fruity water today. So, I’ve got my water jug and I’m working on it.

John: And I have just a little bit of a peppermint-spearmint tea blend here. And the reason is just a little bit as this is our third podcast of the day today. So I didn’t have a chance in between them to go back to my office and get some new tea or some new hot water. So I do have a little bit to get us started here.

Rebecca: A tiny bit left from my pot of blue sapphire tea.

John: …which is much more colorful.

Rebecca: It is, but not in my cup, only in the pot.

John: We’ve invited you here to discuss your March 3 blog post, addressing the relationship between cognition and emotion. In general, how is cognition influenced by emotion,

Michelle: I’ve been interested in this connection for a while and watching the evolution from within my field of cognitive psychology and kind of moving away from the approach that I came up with when I was just starting out as a graduate student, which is I recall was this kind of oil and water conception of cognition and emotion that here on the one side, we’ve got thought processes, we’ve got memory, and so on. And on the other side [LAUGHTER], we’ve got the emotions and so on. And we’re just going to really work from in our subfield to try to get our arms around just these cognitive processes, and don’t worry about the rest of it. And now, I think that most cognitive psychology theorists in the field would say that, yeah, our cognitive processes are definitely shaped by and infused by what’s going on kind of over in the emotional processing systems of our mind and in our brain. And if I had to describe, just from my own perspective, what I see is a change over time and an evolution in our field, we’ve kind of gone from really talking about parts of the mind in this very compartmentalized modular way, where different parts do different things pretty much independently. And now you see more discussion of how these different parts have interplay with each other, how they give what I would think of as a sort of a soft input to other subsystems, or even set some constraints on what those other systems are doing without totally determining them. So I think we are moving into this more nuanced view of how those two things work together. So that, yeah, our emotions affect what we believe, they also serve as a way to almost elevate or suppress different aspects of what we’re processing so we might remember things in a particular way, or think about them in a particular way. And it’s neat to me too, as somebody in the field, because I look and I see clinical psychologists, the people in the area of psychology who work on how do we help people in therapy and help people with different disorders and challenges. They’ve known this for quite some time, but they’ve looked at it sort of in reverse. So if you’ve ever heard the school of thought known as cognitive therapy, or cognitive behavioral therapy, one of the core tenets of that approach is that the emotional side of how we function, our emotions, are affected by our cognition. So what we feel, even our mood states and so on, that’s fundamentally driven by things like what we believe. And so they’ve come up with these really exciting and powerful techniques for addressing beliefs that people have and thereby affecting their emotions. So we can take a cue from that and have this more nuanced view of the interplay. So back to cognitive psychology. I also come at this really philosophically as what we would call a functionalist, [LAUGHTER] that’s sort of a lens through which I see how we address questions in psychology. So when we say, “Well, why does the mind work in this particular way? Why does it have this component or why does it do this in this way?” I would look at and say, “Well, how does that help us survive? What’s the function for helping us really survive and thrive in our world?” And when we look at things like emotions, our emotions are there for very functional reasons. I believe our emotions exist in order to kind of move us towards things that help us in our survival and move us away from things that are going to be a threat to our survival. And also they serve in this way to kind of alert us to what’s relevant. So it’s almost like a relevance mechanism. So if something provokes an emotional response in us, that may be an old shortcut that our mind has to say, “Yes, this is something that’s important. This is something that maybe you want to remember and that you want to pay attention to.” So I see emotions as kind of a feel for relevance, and that’s something I’m sure we’ll get into in our conversation about teaching and learning. later. And all of this is a practical issue too. I tell the story sometimes about Minds Online, and writing that book, where I got to about midway through the book and literally had this crisis, I remembered it happening like in the middle of the night, there’s something huge that’s missing right around this point in the book. And that book, for those who have taken a look at it, it takes a very cognitive view of how we select and use technologies. But I came to this realization, we can’t really talk about how to maximize the effectiveness of those approaches, unless we also talk about why students are going to do them in the first place, and how we can get them motivated to do them. So, in that book, I ended up covering some very basic elementary foundational concepts in motivation and motivation theory with that idea of what are just the essentials that every teacher needs to know and how might that also get involved in how do we choose certain technologies? How do we set things up in a particular way, for example, in an online course to keep students moving and that keep them putting in that productive effort. And so that’s been around in the back of my mind for quite some time. But now I’m reading all these new articles and this wave of interesting new research that is finding yet more connections between those two sides of the mind. And so how to get students to engage in strategies that work from a cognitive perspective and how to direct that feel for relevance. And early on in my career, as I mentioned in that blog post, I look back and it seems so harsh now, like, well, how do we get students to be accountable. And now I’ve kind of shifted that along with many others towards really looking more at the support side of this and bringing in things like empathy for our students, I don’t think I’ve ever been one of those super punitive “look to your left, look to your right” kinds of teachers, nor have I ever really advised that to their faculty. But I’m realizing that in this really critical case that I’m looking at this relationship in new ways, and I’m excited to share that.

Rebecca: So there’s been a lot of discussion about student motivation and engagement…, a crisis in it. [LAUGHTER] A lot of faculty have reported students being less engaged or less motivated. How can we, as faculty, address some of the challenges that people are experiencing at this moment?

Michelle: And it is such a pressing question, and that’s another thing that’s just really been registering as I’ve had my antenna up about what are people talking about right now? What are they bringing into conferences, and so on? And first off, as a little bit of a skeptic, I have to say, “Well, I think that we still need some more information to nail down exactly what the extent and the nature of the engagement crisis is.” And I think all three of us are attuned to what I guess you can call the fallacy of “students these days.” [LAUGHTER] So as so many people have observed, it’s so tempting to have that filter on of like, “Well, back when I was a student, I was always intrinsically engaged in my classes, I didn’t miss assignments, and so on and there’s a downward trend.” So there’s something about that. I put on my skeptic filter when I see that. But that said, we do have these experiences. And I don’t think regardless, even if we look back and say, “Well, maybe this wasn’t really part of a bigger trend as we thought.” Even if that were to happen, are we gonna look back and say, “Well, we shouldn’t have worried so much about engaging our students, we can almost always stand to engage them more.” So with that big caveat, I think that we should also be really reflecting on and separating out, as much as it’s really possible to do so, disengagement from other related things like prioritizing. I don’t have the capacity to cover all that I need to as a student, and perhaps also as a family member, a parent, a worker, and so on. So here’s how I’m going to go at it, or even just straight up overwhelm, and I think we can look at that from our own perspective, too, and say, “Well, right.” I think we’ve also seen quite a few faculty professional development directors and others who work with other faculty to say, “Oh my gosh, I put up a half a dozen workshops, and I’m having trouble filling them. So we too, as a lot of our demands have converged over the last couple of years, and as we’ve coped with those stresses, we too. It’s not that we’re disengaged from what we’re doing, but we’re having to make some different choices out of necessity. We have the economic costs of college and that whole dynamic that’s going on as well. I’m no expert in that. But I think we all know that students today are working more jobs, succeeding at every single course and getting through as quickly as possible is an economic necessity and so on. So the stakes are very, very high for students, and students are dealing with that. And so that’s one also very important thing to think about when we’re looking at this. So with that, though, have students been more disengaged? I mean, my experience immediately coming back to in-person teaching, I found myself that students were really excited. At the risk of sounding very strange here, it was like a box of excited puppies: Oh my goodness, we’re all here in the classroom together. And I felt the same way in some ways too. But really directing that in some, again, productive ways is what we have to do as the leaders of our classes. Now to practical tips for what can we do. If there’s a disengagement, students are elsewhere, they’re not doing the work, or they’re all excited but they don’t know how to manage that. But here’s a couple things that I think are very practical. So I’m a big advocate these days for flexibility and approachability in what we do. So I wrote a piece last year titled, “Ungrading Light…” I think that was the catchphrase in the title… which talks about “Okay, without sort of throwing out grades and say, ‘Well, students have the wrong motivation when it’s all about the grades.’” If we’re still going to have grades, what are some positive ways to keep students really focused on the learning and engaged with the learning and not just like, checkpoint, checkpoint, how do I get through this? And I do think that even some basic changes to policy can help here. So things like I really have gotten very flexible on deadlines. The caution here that this is going to look very different for people with different course sizes, section sizes, different disciplines, what the learning objectives really are in your course. So I don’t want to imply that everybody just can do this in the same way. And as I also mentioned in the piece, things like very flexible deadline policies can present a professional risk for people who do not have the security of, for example, tenure, and people who are historically minoritized, and are going to elicit different kinds of reactions from students to play out on things like end-of-semester evaluations. So for example, faculty of color. So with those big cautions in mind, now, here’s been my experience is I communicate with students… I say, “I want to be approachable,” I want to really show them and not just tell them that if you come to me and say, “I was pulling double shifts all weekend, and I need to do this paper draft, and I know that, but I need another two days,” that I’m not going to come down on them in a harder, personal way. And if they do that, just not all the time, I will say, “Yeah,” and then my catchphrase right now is, “Take the time, you need to do your best work.” And that turns out actually to be really good for my motivation, too, because I would really rather read what they put together [LAUGHTER] with a little bit of more time, that’s all about I want to do something I can be proud of in this course, and actually walk away with great knowledge. It’s more geared towards that and less geared towards “Oh my gosh, didn’t come in until 11:58 when it’s due at midnight, and I sort of just checked that box again. So that is something as well and other ways to be approachable, that can also elicit more engagement. How do we know students are engaged? Well, when they reach out to us. And so, here again, different individuals have to decide their appropriate comfort level and parameters. But I have a syllabus statement that says here are all the different ways to get in touch with me. If you’ve got a long question, and we need to talk, I’ve got a scheduling program, you click a button, and boom, now you have access to my calendar, and you can get on my calendar the same way my colleagues can. And that’s good. If you have a really quick question like, “Oh my gosh, there’s one thing I need to do in order to finish this assignment and actually be successful, then you can text me or send me a message in a program such as Remind, which can kind of buffer so we’re not trading phone numbers. But, that immediacy, it has not really resulted in this giant pile up of lots of inappropriate communications, which is what I was always warned about when I was coming up as a teacher. But instead, students get the question answered and then they can kind of stay engaged with the flow of what they’re doing. So just basic ideas, but ones that I think can help move us back towards a more engaged setting where students are excited to be there and so am I. If I could add one other thing here, too, we can also take a page out of the transparency philosophy. So if you’re familiar with Transparency in Teaching and Learning, the TILT framework, it’s so powerful. And it’s all about giving more explicit directions to students, as well. What you may read as disengagement or not caring, might be “I don’t know where to start and now, I really am feeling either alienated, overwhelmed, or something in between.” And I think that’s another we can all relate to is, we’re a lot more likely to take the first step down the path and keep going if that first step is lit up, or maybe if the whole path is lit up. So taking that little bit of extra time to say “And here’s where to start and if you get stuck, here’s what to do.” That can also help.

John: I’ve been observing the same sort of issue that many people have reported of students not completing work. I’ve seen students being much more excited to be back in the classroom, and they tend to be fairly engaged in classroom activity. But what I’ve been seeing and what a lot of faculty have been saying is that students aren’t doing the work outside of class at the same rates that they used to do. And one of the concerns in terms of making your classes more flexible, in some cases, you can do that really well and I do allow that with many of the assignments. But in classes where the material builds from week to week, if students start getting behind early in the semester, they’re going to be struggling a lot more later. So I have different policies depending on whether they’re producing something, some type of educational project… a podcast or something similar… as they do in some of my classes, then they can have more time. And I give them as much time as they need to do that with multiple iterations. But with other things like reading the materials online, where there’s some embedded questions, and so forth, there, I do insist that they get it done by a certain time, because then when they come into class and they’re asked clicker questions, some of which they’re graded on, they’re not going to be successful in that if they haven’t done the basic reading. And that’s where I’m seeing a lack of engagement, outside of class. I’ve had many fewer students complete the readings before class, or even weeks after they were due, they’re still not completing some of those readings. And that’s the concern that I’m having. And I have to say that I’ve also observed some of this with faculty too, that attendance at professional development workshops have been a lot lower this year than in the last couple of years. And some of it may be because of burnout after the pandemic. And I should note that on my campus, we’re also transitioning to a new learning management system. And a lot of people have been struggling with that, which takes up a lot of their time, reducing the amount of time they have to learn other new things while they’re struggling to learn the new system. But this issue of engagement does seem to be impacting the amount of learning that I’m seeing, at least in my large intro classes, I’m not seeing it so much in my upper-level classes. But I’m wondering if some of this may be because we have students who’ve spent a year or two with remote learning in schools that often had very few resources to do that, well and students may have just gotten out of practice with doing a lot of work, because in many school systems, students were just passed on to the next grade level without necessarily learning very much in many classes.

Michelle: Yeah, I’ve seen this dynamic, actually even at my upper levels as well became rather glaring the first time that we went back to an in person symposium, it was the kind of capstone experience in this class was to bring some research to the symposium. It’s a wonderful experience, but it dawned on me partway through the semester to step back and just say, “Okay, how many of you have never done a presentation like this before?” And yeah, previously, most of the class would have had some experience either in an in-person research lab that they were in, or in a methods class or something like that. It was one of those head slapping moments, at least for me, feeling, “Of course, of course they don’t know.” And I try to come at it like, “Well, this is the time to do what I probably should have always done for what was previously a small group of students. But it’s still an important group of students who are sitting in the back going, ‘Oh, my gosh, I feel lost. I don’t want to even raise my hand. I don’t know what she’s talking about with the poster or participation or even things like what to wear.’” And so I did, I went back and dusted off and created a few stopgap materials. I found some things out on the web that actually demonstrated a poster presentation that was in progress and what to do and not to do. So it can be an opportunity to do more of that transparency and kind of scaffolding and bringing everybody up. But yeah, it can be shocking to stand back and say, “Okay, who has not actually done this thing that I kind of always assumed would be the case by this level,” regardless of what that is.

Rebecca: I’ve experienced this, even with graduate students, this lack of knowledge of certain kinds of academic experiences, in part because they were learning online or not doing things in person, and now they’re in in-person classes and having any in-person experiences. So I had the same experience, Michelle, but with graduate students, and needing to really build in some transparency there that maybe didn’t need to be there before because in their undergraduate experience, they were very likely to have had a similar experience.

John: And as you said, Michelle, giving students more structure and more support is something that we probably should be doing anyway. We just finished a reading group on Viji Sathy and Kelly Hogan’s book on inclusive teaching. And that’s the message at the heart of that book: that giving students support will help all students at least some and will especially help those students who come from backgrounds that provide less preparation for success in college. So to the extent to which we as faculty all learn that lesson, that giving students more support is useful, it’ll be a better environment.

Michelle: I agree and what seems implicit in that., how you’ve put that too is, instead of like, “Oh my gosh, another thing I have to cram into the semester” …for our motivation and our engagement is to say, this is part of one of the most noble pursuits that we can have as educators, to give it that meaningful frame. So yes, a hearty I agree with that book, in particular, and their framework. And for me, that helps me kind of say, like, “Okay, yeah, this is not just an extra add on, this is what we’re here for.” And if I’m trimming back a few extra articles, or chapters, and I have done that, to some extent, in favor of being able to go more deep and into content, and be more supportive in these positive ways, I think that’s a win.

Rebecca: I think one of the things that I’ve noticed or experienced recently with students is high engagement in class, high engagement in the subject matter, but we’ve had really interesting conversations about procrastination or not doing things outside of class, largely due to a lack of confidence, or striving for perfection that doesn’t exist. And there’s a lot of that emotion around that. And so a lot of my students have talked about that, or shared that with me, which I’m grateful that they’ve shared that with me. But that’s what’s preventing them from getting started.

Michelle: Absolutely. And I think folks who follow the research on procrastination out there, it’s not as much in my specialty area, but I do think it’s fascinating. And it’s another one of these touch points between what we believe, what we feel, what we’re motivated to do, and then in turn, what we remember and what we learn. So I think that for people who are interested in this whole topic of procrastination, why does it happen? What are some really good ways to talk about it, and address it, there’s new stuff coming out. And it’s a good thing to talk about with students as well, I think years back, it was almost a taboo subject. But now from what I hear you saying, you just bring it up with students, and we can all talk about it not as like, “Oh, that’s some terrible thing that other people, bad students, are doing. This is all of us, right? [LAUGHTER] We live in a world of abundance, but also abundant distractions, and so many things competing for our time. So I like this idea of opening up that line of communication, saying, “What do we all do to tackle this when it occurs?”

John: Dan Ariely had a paper a number of years ago, where he did an experiment in class, I think it was an economics class, actually, where students wrote papers. And he and some co authors had two sections of the class, where in one section, students had three papers with fixed due dates spread evenly through the semester. And in the other section, students were able to pick their own due dates. And there was a penalty in either case of one percentage point a day for each day the work was submitted late. And what was found in that study is that the students did best who either had fixed due dates, they had higher quality papers, and higher quality work, and so forth, they wrote more, and the quality of the work was much better when they had fixed due dates, or when they chose evenly spaced due dates. From an economist’s perspective, the rational thing to do would be to put all three due dates on the last day of class, because then you could still plan to do it evenly throughout the semester, but you would have no cost of doing that. So if something came up, you could postpone it. But what happened is the people who put all their due dates at the end of the semester ended up procrastinating, turning in work later, the papers were shorter, they were lower quality, and in general, they didn’t do quite as well. So that’s one study, I often will cite to students when we talk about due dates and deadlines, and so forth. But it’s an interesting study. And I haven’t seen anything else in economics journals, at least, related to that, but I’m sure there’s more that I haven’t seen in the literature.

Michelle: Fascinating stuff from across the disciplines.

John: One of the things you talk about in your blog post is that the strategies that students use for learning are not the strategies that evidence tells us are most effective. Students tend to use strategies that provide some short-term benefit, and seem to be easier, rather than the strategies that require them to struggle a little bit more with the content. One of the things you talk about are some ways that we could encourage students to adopt strategies that may not feel quite as good in the short run, but result in more learning. How can we motivate students to use evidence-based learning strategies?

Rebecca: …motivate them to struggle? [LAUGHTER]

Michelle: Right, but that is really what we’re talking about here. And I do want to go into this… big qualification here… I don’t think that students are just out there wanting to get the best grade and for the least effort necessarily, that’s just not a narrative about students that I buy into. So, I don’t think students are trying to do low-effort strategies. But, just like the rest of us, we don’t have a very good or accurate view always, a very empirical view, of what actually pays off in terms of learning. It’s pretty rare that we sit down and actually kind of do the math and say, “Well, I did this, I systematically changed the approach in this way, and here’s the outcome.” So we don’t come at it that way. So no wonder that over time, we end up with kind of a distorted view of what actually does work. So that’s a big piece of it. And it is true at the same time that these strategies we’re talking about… well, let’s take one, for example, of blocked study. Now this is a term that I also want to unpack a little bit too, it’s not super intuitive. So this has to do with the principle of interleaving, which I always say it doesn’t always apply in all studying, but to cases where you’re learning how to apply different problem solving strategies and you have to choose from several when you’re having to categorize and learn to discriminate among categories. So that is a subset of what students are sometimes learning. And the thing is, we have this great powerful line of research that shows that actually mixing it up in an unpredictable way, the different problem types or category types, means it’s going to be a lot more memorable when you actually work through those practice problems or practice sets. And if that’s the case, the unpredictability of like, well, something’s gonna pop up categorizing different painting styles, I have no idea [LAUGHTER] if it’s going to be a Renoir or a Monet, what could be next? It’s that unpredictability. So people sometimes confuse it with just like mixing up topics or having variety, but it really refers to the systematic principle. Now, when students are offered the opportunity to structure their own study, what do you know, they tend to go with blocked study, and again, it’s not because there’s some dispositional factor, they don’t want to do their homework or something like that. Really when you look at it intuitively, it’s like an illusion, block study feels so effective. I’m going to work through all of this one painter or all of this one way of solving a statistics problem. And then I’ll go into the next and our textbooks are organized that way, too. So students have seen that, and so that’s what they fall back on. And there’s some recent work that I’ve talked about in that blog post and in a few other places, that has really studied in a very granular fashion… it’s presented students with different alternatives, like here’s a blocked study schedule. Here’s an interleaved one. We don’t use the technical terms, we show them both options, and say, “Okay, let’s pretend you have a math test coming up. Which one of these do you want to do? And why?” And yeah, students, they gravitate towards the blocked one. And they say, I perceive that this is going to be easier, first of all, and that’s fine. We want to use the most efficient strategy. So they say, this is gonna look easy and also, it feels more effective. Because I feel like, “Oh, yeah, I’ve got it.” But as we all know, sometimes that’s a false sense of security. So that’s the example as it lays out in that one case, and I think that that is a larger kind of big dynamic, that we do have to be aware of what looks easy, what feels easy, what looks effective, what feels effective. Sometimes, your brain is kind of playing tricks on you. And that becomes very serious when it is the case that things like interleaved study are more effortful, but they’re going to pay off more for the time invested. Retrieval practice, which I and a lot of other folks in the space talk about so much, that’s another that it’s gonna require a different level of effort and engagement to close my book and say, “Alright, instead of rereading this chapter, what did I actually get out of it, or maybe I can seek out a quiz.” And to me, I also think it’s not just the effort involved, and research, by the way, it’s also showing students also to look at this and go, “that looks difficult.” It also kind of emotionally, I mean, I was feeling okay about this chapter, and now, I can’t really kid myself any more. So to the extent that students might be kind of saying, “Yeah, yeah, I’ve got it, I’ve got it.” …like, we might all do this, this will kind of bust that unjustified optimism, and that doesn’t always feel great in the short term. So if that’s the case, I mean, we can set up these wonderful learning activities, and if students aren’t going to do them, then they’re not doing them or us any good or any benefit. So, that’s the case as well. And so if they have a sense of the value, and a lot of these strategies that maybe we can touch on, do have to do with exposing and revealing and convincing about the value, and finding ways to draw students into exactly those techniques. So just because these are difficult, I do want to make sure everybody doesn’t get this terrible impression of like, “Ah, studying is going to be this miserable slog, no pain, no gain,” …it’s more subtle than that. And they really do work, you really are gonna get so much more out of the time that you put in and for students who really are stretched really thin as we’ve touched on. That’s an important powerful message.

Rebecca: You mentioned a number of specific examples in your post, do oyu want to dive into some of those and share something like the snowball effect or self-determination theory, or some of your other really awesome examples?

Michelle: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. And, after all, the big philosophy and approach matters, but let’s get down to the actual techniques. So I’ve referenced something called the “snowball effect,” and this is just my informal term, but really, the more you know, the more that you want to know. And the more that you know, because of the way memory works, the more you know about a particular domain or subject area, the easier it is to acquire new facts. And like I always throw out the example of folks we know who are just really committed to some hobby or area of interest, the sports fanatics and so on, they can run into a fact one time and boom, they’ve got it, they’ve maybe got it for life, and they don’t have to study [LAUGHTER] or do anything like that. And so there is that snowball, or rich get richer effect, just because of some factors about how memory is set up and how it works. From a very practical angle, like I ran into this really intriguing study. And it’s not one where we’ve got piles of research yet, but this really got me thinking. So they did a study where they had students through retrieval practice, learn some basic facts about an area that they picked. And they were able to systematically track that when students did learn this foundational information more solidly, then when they had the option, “Oh, would you like to know more about this subject?” …students were more likely to say yes. And that’s totally voluntary. And that’s the sort of thing that makes our hearts go pitter pat, as teachers we want students leaving and going, “Oh, my gosh, now I really want to read that next reading that Dr. Kane assigned, for example.” And like when you were talking about, students are coming into class, and we’re trying to get them into the next level of conceptual stuff and exciting things they can do, if they don’t have the facts, it’s gonna be really, really tough, so it also really points up the importance of doing that. And it also, I think, addresses one of these big myths about memory. And this is one that I’ve talked about in some of my recent workshops, and so on, and I mentioned in my last book, this big myth that if we do focus on having students concentrate on remembering foundational information, we’re going to turn them off of learning: “Oh, it’s going to be this sort of these nightmare of drills.” And, “sure, they’ll know it for the test, but they’ll walk out and they’ll never want to be engaged with the subject again. So it’s a big loss, [LAUGHTER] right?” And this is really calling that into question, saying that sometimes knowing some of these cool initial facts can start to set you down that path and then maybe someday, you will be that expert who can hear a fact one time in this area and we’ve got it. Why? Because we already know so much about it. So again, that whole Interplay there. There’s also the role of choice and autonomy. And this is one that I think a lot of really intuitive, committed, teachers really hit on early, even if they never really have some of the more formal terminology for it. So when there’s choice, not only are students more invested in what they’re doing, there’s possibly a role of curiosity here. So I talk about, in this blog post, this sham lottery study, it was one of these, where if you look at it on the face of it, you’re like, “What are they doing?” But as a psychologist, I’m like, “Ah, that’s really clever.” So basically, they had research participants going through this little pretend lottery of like, “Okay, you’re selecting out of this bucket of red balls, and so on. And what do you think it’s going to come up?” And the one twist that they put in there, is sometimes people chose which of these two little buckets, there are these little random drawings, that they were going to focus on? And then it’s like, okay, well, we can either just move on with the study, or you can see how it came out? Well, they want to know how it came out when they chose… even this incredibly arbitrary [LAUGHTER] low-stakes situation. So I think that’s also another kind of natural, emotional process, motivational process, that we can tie into… setting up curiosities or questions, but also having students say, “Well, which of these two projects do you want to do?” These days I offer options whenever I can. Would you like to write a term paper? The sort of formal paper? Or would you like to put together a slideshow that you can narrate and share? Big learning objectives are probably similar, but students can pick and I always present in practical terms, I say, “Well, if you are going to graduate school next year, and you need a writing sample for your portfolio, this is a great opportunity to do that orr if you’d like to stretch your skills with oral presentations, maybe because of the last few years, you haven’t gotten to do that as much, then you can choose this,” …but simply by having them make a choice, the research would predict that they are going to be more invested, and they’re going to be involved in these more effective things. So that’s one and oh, I’m really excited to see what’s coming out in this whole sub area of “Okay, we’ve done all the research we know that things like retrieval practice and interleaved study, all this engaged stuff. We know it works. We put it on a tip sheet, we gave it to students, nothing happened.” Uh oh.[LAUGHTER] Now what? So not just the like, “Okay, what should students be doing?” But “how do we get them to do those very things?” And, boy, if there was ever a time when we realize, yeah, my ability to just sort of exhort you and make you do things because I say so is limited, this is the time. Because I don’t get to go home with students [LAUGHTER] and say like, “Alright, that whole thing about quiz yourself. And so now you really have to do it.” So there’s this relatively new framework that’s come out too from some cognitive psychologists that I really admire, Mark McDaniels and his team. The knowledge, belief, commitment, and planning approach, KBCP. So this pulls in from some other research on intentional behavior change that’s also been perking along just all on its own for years and years. We know so much about how people set a course and decide to change their behaviors. And study skills are, after all, kind of an entrenched pattern of behavior for many students by the time they get to us. How do we go in and change it? And yeah, it’s absolutely not through my least favorite technique, which is put together a list of random tips and hope for the best. So they say, alright, knowledge is the first step. So just telling students like, “Hey, there’s all this research that shows that if you close the book and quiz yourself, you’re going to get more out of this. If you do the reading quiz that I set up for you, and do it as many times as you possibly can, that’s going to help you retain the foundational information.” I’ve told them, I’ve shared it with them, or something like interleaved study, if you’ve got different problem types, mix them up. But it doesn’t stop there. That’s only the first step. So the next step is belief. And that means changing beliefs, which means persuasion. So we kind of dust off a whole bunch of other things out of the psychologist’s toolkit. How do you persuade people? Well, you show, don’t tell. So this team proposes doing things like “Well, let’s run a head-to-head comparison, like a Pepsi Challenge, in class. Sure, your brain tells you that you learned a ton just from reviewing, but did you? Let’s try it.” And this takes some time. I mean, this is not easy. But this is one of the things they propose: commitment. So now that I’ve persuaded you that this is the way to study, now, what’s your next step? So getting your students to say, “Yeah, I actually authentically believe this. And I see how it’s going to help me and I’m going to try it.” And then of course planning. So instead of just like, “I will do this,” right? Those of us who are veterans of New Year’s resolutions of yor [LAUGHTER] know that that is not the way to go. So yeah, saying “Okay, but here’s what I’m going to actually do. So I’ve got a test coming up, I’m going to maybe set up a study schedule, instead of just cramming it all in the last minute, which is [LAUGHTER] a really good empirically grounded strategy. I’m going to find these practice quizzes, or maybe I’ll get together with a study group and do that. So here’s my plan.” And then if possible, circling back and say, “Well, did it work.?” And hey, if we’re right, then students will actually try it, they’ll say, “Wow, in less time, I knocked the top out of this test that I was really worried about.” And that is going to feed that virtuous cycle of going right back to those effective strategies. So KPCB, I love it too, because I’ve been doing something similar in the Attention Matters Project that I think I’ve talked about on some previous episodes as well, which is all about having students themselves come in and see how their attention is limited, learn about the effects of things like distraction on their learning. But we don’t stop there. We give them a few rudimentary tools as well, we say, “Okay, what is going to be your plan if things are dragging in class and your mom is texting you? That’s tough. How are you going to get through [LAUGHTER] that without then checking out of your class? What are you going to do if your neighbors are watching who knows what on their laptop or they’re texting and it’s bothering you? What is going to be your plan?” So getting students to really think ahead to those things, commit to doing them in a way that works for them, and puts that newfound knowledge into practice. So those are some of the things that I’m really experimenting with and excited about right now.

Rebecca: So in that approach, it seems really necessary to help set up a structure for students and then circle back and have a reflective piece so that maybe they will do that on their own next time.

Michelle: And there’s some exciting suggestions from research here, too. I mean, I know it’s easy sometimes as faculty, especially at the end of a long year, like this one, to say, “Ah, well, did it actually stick with them?” But there’s a couple of different projects out there that have kind of converging on this idea that once students really do see something like retrieval practice, active studying, and so on, and once they really experienced that, as part of the structure of one course, they absolutely will run with it. So they will go into the next class, whether in your discipline or not, and say, “Well, from now on, I’m actually going to have a study plan that’s set up in this particular way and I’m going to do this.” So I personally find that very, very encouraging that “Yeah, it takes some work to do this stuff, but the payoff, even if you personally don’t see it right in front of your eyes, the payoff is likely there.”

John: And so the more faculty you start doing these things too, the more likely it is that students will adopt new approaches. So spreading this more widely is helpful.

Michelle: Yes, yes, a hearty I agree to that statement. And I can test on my own campus, I’ve seen more faculty bringing in more structure, things like online reading quizzes, I have noticed that, so I guess that’s a counterpoint to the “Wow, my lived experience is telling me that there’s these issues in engagement. Maybe so, but my lived experience is also telling me that students are coming to me more ready to be proactive about their study, they need a little less persuasion to do things like reading quizzes, because they at least they’ve seen them before. So yeah, I think it absolutely can work that way you’re describing.

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking, what’s next?

Michelle: Wow, well, these days, I’m working a lot on my substack newsletter, it’s called the R3 Newsletter. And I think this is the mechanism by which we connected on some of these new topics. So I love that it’s already starting these great dialogues. And if you haven’t seen substack at all, it’s a bit of a blogging platform. And my substack is free, some subtasks are paid, but mine is definitely free. And so, for example, if you’re interested in this topic, I would definitely tell your listeners to check out Sarah Rose Cavanagh’s substack, as well, it’s called “Once More, with Feeling” and I also want to affirm that she is and her work are really at the forefront of this whole topic of motivation and emotion and particular in learning so a great other substack to follow it and buy her book, Spark of Learning is also just an absolute modern classic in this. So I decided to get in the fray since I saw these wonderful thinkers around me also doing this. And this has been a really good platform, and a way to structure for myself something that I felt needed a refresh, which was my reading of the literature that’s coming out. So what I do is twice a month, approximately, I’ve been putting out discussions of research that I’m reading. My little heuristic is anything that was published in approximately the last year, really privileging the new stuff. And I’ve historically just seen that then when I really get into the nitty gritty of the research and what it says and what it doesn’t and parsing that for folks, especially those who may be outside of social sciences, that’s where I get the most affirmation from folks and people saying, “Yeah, this was really helpful.” So I decided to run with that. And so that’s a big project ight now. I’ve been really happy with the reception and just working on that. I’ve been writing and thinking more about this topic of motivation and cognition. So as we mentioned at the top of our conversation, it’s one that goes back to kind of my initial ponderings, thrashing around as a beginning graduate student of like, “How does this all work?” Coming back to that, and really finding new ways that I can share that with my fellow faculty. So getting the word out there. I have a few new projects that I’m working on that tie back to that attention issue. So that’s another perpetual area of interest for me. So I have a few new writing and research projects that are going on with that and kind of in the development phase. And this summer, I am going to be catching up on a stack of books, just an epic number of these great books and works that are coming out. Seems like every week, there’s a new thing that goes on that list. So I look forward to a few weeks or more to really concentrate on that.

John: And we should note this is the second podcast that has come out of things we’ve seen posted on your substack blog.

Michelle: Oh, wonderful.

John: One other thing. Sarah Rose Cavanaugh has a new book coming out that we were fortunate enough to get a draft copy of and it should be out this summer: Mind over Monsters, if you’d like to see more about this topic.

Michelle: Oh, absolutely. Alright. It’s on the stack now.

Rebecca: That pile keeps growing.

Michelle: Yes, it does.

Rebecca: Better add on another week. [LAUGHTER]

John: We could all use an extra week or summer.

Rebecca: Right? Yeah.

John: Well, thank you. It’s always great talking to you, Michelle.

Michelle: Oh, my pleasure, you as well.

Rebecca: Thanks, Michelle.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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222. Interleaved Practice

Students engaging in blocked practice focus their efforts on a particular topic and then move on to the next topic in sequence, resulting in a perception of content mastery. Interleaved practice provides an alternative approach in which students engage in learning activities that require them to determine which concepts are relevant in a given application. In this episode, Josh Samani and Steven Pan join us to discuss their study comparing the effects of blocked and interleaved practice on student learning.

Josh is an Assistant Teaching Professor of Physics at the University of California, Los Angeles. He is also an instructional consultant for the Center of Education Innovation and Learning in the Sciences and Director of the UCLA-APS Physics Bridge Program. Steven is an Assistant Professor of Psychology at National University of Singapore whose research focuses on evidence-based teaching approaches.

Shownotes

Transcript

John: Students engaging in blocked practice focus their efforts on a particular topic and then move on to the next topic in sequence, resulting in a perception of content mastery. Interleaved practice provides an alternative approach in which students engage in learning activities that require them to determine which concepts are relevant in a given application. In this episode, we discuss a study comparing the effects of blocked and interleaved practice on student learning.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners..

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John: Our guests today are Josh Samani and Steven Pan. Josh is an Assistant Teaching Professor of Physics at the University of California, Los Angeles. He is also an instructional consultant for the Center of Education Innovation and Learning in the Sciences and Director of the UCLA-APS Physics Bridge Program. Steven is an Assistant Professor of Psychology at National University of Singapore whose research focuses on evidence-based teaching approaches. Welcome, Josh and Steven.

Josh: Thank you.

Steven: Thank you.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are… Josh, are you drinking tea?

Josh: I’m drinking the purest kind of tea which is no tea at all. Water.

Rebecca: It’s important to tea to have water, so this is good. This is good. How about you, Steven?

Steven: I’m having some very nice chamomile tea in honor of the podcast.

Rebecca: Awesome, even though it’s midnight.

Steven: Yeah. well, non caffeinated

John: …and I’m drinking Irish Breakfast tea today.

Rebecca: I have a classic English breakfast today as well.

John: We’ve invited you here today to discuss your research project on interleaved practice in physics classes that was published in Nature Science of Learning in November 2021. Before we discuss that study, though, could you describe to our listeners what interleaved practice is and how it differs from blocked practice?

Steven: Interleaved practice is a way of arranging learning activities in which you switch between different topics or skills as you try to learn them. So for example, say in the domain of mathematics, you’re learning to solve volume problems, graphing problems, factoring problems. With interleaving, in a single session, you would switch back and forth between those different skills. So maybe you will attempt a volume problem, then switch to a graphing problem, then a factoring problem. You’re constantly switching back and forth, mixing it up, or interleaving, between those different skills or topics. Now in contrast, a more common practice is known as blocking or blocked practice. And that’s where you focus on one skill or topic at a time, sort of exclusively. So for instance, in an initial session, you’ll focus only on, say, volume problems. And then it’s not until the next session, you will only focus on graphing problems. And then the next session after that maybe only factoring problems. So blocking and interleaving are in a way sort of diametrically opposed. In one case, you’re constantly switching back and forth. In the other case, you’re focusing on one at a time. And currently blocking is much more common in everyday practice in classrooms, it seems to be better organized, more intuitive to people, whereas blocking, firstly, most people don’t know about it. But if they hear about it, they may think “Oh, that seems disorganized, haphazard. Why would I even want to do that?” And so interleaving and blocking… very different ways to schedule your learning.

Josh: And I think also, from the point of view of gaining mastery, there’s this intuition that if you want to master something, you kind of need to block your practice on each sub skill, and hammer away at that for a long time until you master that sub skill then move on. We think this is maybe another reason why, in general, people intuitively are drawn to blocking as an initial study strategy.

Steven: Right. And just this idea of practice makes perfect, it kind of sometimes seems to imply that you should focus and target a particular skill or topic and just become really good at it by practicing it over and over. And that’s the essence of blocking.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about some of the prior lab experiments, and what they suggest about interleaved versus blocked practice before we jump into your current study.

Steven: So, the first studies of interleaving were conducted in the domain of motor skills, and this is work dating back to the 1980s. And the chief finding is that… and it was surprising at the time, and still seems somewhat counterintuitive today… that if you interleave as you’re practicing a set of motor skills in a given domain, that results in better overall proficiency than blocking. For instance, in the domain of badminton, learning to serve different types of badminton serves, the finding has been that if you interleave as you practice, and you practice one type of serve, then you switch to another… then another… then another… that results in better serving ability than practicing only one kind of serve at a time before switching to the next. And that finding that interleaving benefits motor skills has been shown in a variety of motor skill domains, including baseball, basketball, and so on. So the earliest work was in motor skills. Moving on to the early 2000s, there was a move into non-motor skill tasks. And this is primarily involving perceptual category learning, where you’re shown, essentially, pictures that exemplify different categories, for instance, bird families, different artists, painting styles, and the finding there has been that if you interleave as you’re viewing these examples, you view one example from a given category, then you view another example from yet another category, you keep switching… that results in better ability to recognize those categories than if you block where you’re just seeing one category over and over at a time, and that finding has been especially the case for categories that are sort of confusable, similar to one another. And it seems that interleaving is a great way to learn to tell them apart. And now, even more recently, there’s been a move to really highly educationally relevant tasks. For instance, I myself have published a couple of studies investigating interleaving with learning grammar rules in a foreign language. And it seems that interleaving is a great way to learn different sets of grammatical rules. Perhaps the most sort of impressive set of recent studies has been worked by some researchers at University of South Florida, in which they interleave math homework in seventh grade classrooms. So early, I mentioned learning to calculate volumes and graphing and so on. That’s literally the kinds of problems that they interleaved in homework in seventh grade classrooms and that results in greatly improved learning over the traditional blocked approach. And so, overall, the literature on interleaving is small but growing, but there have been a variety of promising results across very different domains. But, really, the literature has just scratched the surface and it’s not yet clear whether the benefits of interleaving are universally applicable. But again, it’s showing considerable promise.

John: Your specific study took this out of the laboratory and into the classroom. Could you describe the experiment that you did?

Josh: Yeah. So in the winter quarter of 2020 at UCLA, I was teaching two sections of Physics 5C, which is a large-enrollment Physics for Life Sciences course. This is the course that pre-meds take mainly, but also some other students from the life sciences. And each course had an enrollment of about 180 students. So these were pretty large classes, so we can get some good statistics for our study. And the topics are things like electricity, magnetism, quantum mechanics, all of these things are taught at somewhat of an introductory level. These are not like physics major, really in-depth courses, but nonetheless quite challenging. And most students in this series find these topics quite challenging. And what we did was, we gave the students three homework assignments per week that were spaced out basically as evenly as we could, given the course schedule, and in one section of the course… so there were these two 180-person sections. In one section of the course,for the first month, all of their homework practice on all of these assignments were blocked practice. Whereas in the other section of the course, all the homework assignments were interleaved practice. So what that meant in our study design is that on a given homework assignment, students in the blocked practice condition, for every given topic, they would receive three problems that were what we call isomorphic problems. So isomorphic problems are problems where the surface features are quite different, but the deeper underlying structure is quite similar. In the blocked group, students saw these isomorphic problems all blocked together. Whereas in the interleaved group, students saw these different isomorphic problems for a given topic arranged so that they spanned multiple homework sessions. So instead of seeing all those problems in a single homework session all in succession, they saw them in three different homework sessions that were distributed across a week. At the end of this month, all students were given a surprise test to see if their learning had been retained and if they could transfer their learning to somewhat more challenging problems, in some cases for some of the problems on the test, and then basically, we measure the difference in performance between the blocked group and the interleaved group on this assessment. And then for the second month of the class, we did exactly the same thing with the new topics, but the section that was previously interleaved was now blocked, and vice versa. The idea being that, this way, every student in these two sections received both of the conditions. And we could make sure that regardless of which students are getting what type of problem set, we see the same result. So basically, like an internal replication almost. So that’s basically the design of the study.

Rebecca: So the intervention was the homework. Were the things that you were doing during class time blocked practice, or were those also interleaved practice?

Josh: Yeah, that’s a great question. So actually, maybe I should also clarify that the only thing that was different about these courses was the homework. Everything else was identical to the extent possible. I was teaching the course, so the lectures were back to back and I attempted to make the lectures as identical as possible. And lectures were somewhat traditional in the sense that there was a lot of me talking about generalized concept and abstract principles, but also doing some worked examples, and a bit of audience interaction. Students also had lab sections that they attended each week. They had discussion sections where they worked on problems. But all of those things are exactly the same. The only thing that was different, literally, was the arrangement of the problems. And in particular, the entire group of problems, the blocked group and interleaved got were exactly the same. So it was literally just the ordering of problems and their distribution and nothing else.

John: So why did you use surprise tests rather than embedded assessment?

Josh: Yeah. So in an authentic educational context like this, where you’re trying to measure the effect of some intervention, it’s pretty well known to anyone who’s taught a class in any context whatsoever that students tend to cram they’re studying. And the problem with that is that you could imagine,we do this intervention in the homeworks and we change the ordering, and students do all this stuff that’s different. And all of a sudden, if they know a test is coming, they can study 10 or 20 hours. And we have no idea what they’re doing during that studying, maybe everyone will interleave their practice during that studying. And it’s really quite a large amount of studying. So maybe it’ll just wash out any effects that we would have seen otherwise. So we use surprise tests, basically, to eliminate the contamination of cramming, which we know is ubiquitous. This way, we can measure, with much more precision, the effect of the thing that we did, as opposed to it being contaminated by cramming. And, by the way, it’s also pretty well known in the science of learning literature that cramming does actually work. So when students cram for 20 hours, we expect them all to do pretty well, as opposed to when they don’t, we can kind of see what the homework actually did for them.

Steven: …with the caveat that cramming is effective, but short lived in terms of its benefits. And just to add on to what Josh said, we thought of the surprise test as sort of the purest measure of the effects of our intervention. It was uncontaminated by the cramming and other various things that students may have done in the run up to the announced high-stakes exams.

John: That was something I’ve really liked about this, because it’s a methodology that I think perhaps could be used a bit more in measurements of teaching interventions. I haven’t seen it used very often in the past.

Steven: It’s not as frequently used as perhaps it should be, but there are some studies in which surprise exams are implemented just for the very reason that we did, sort of to have an uncontaminated assessment of whatever was being done in that particular study. One thing I also would add, that I think Josh mentioned… that students were genuinely shocked when they came into the lecture hall and rather than a review session, as we had suggested they were going to experience, he started handing out the surprise exam forms

John: It’s a form of retrieval practice, which is a form of review.

Josh: Oh, yeah, I think, in fact, I’ve actually used that as a form of review in the past, interestingly enough, even before we did this. Another thing I want to add is that using high-stakes, for example, midterm exams to measure the effectiveness of these sorts of things, is also problematic in the sense that, presumably in education, what we’re trying to measure is long-term retention, to a large extent, and students cram on these tests. And so given what Steven said, since cramming is effective only in the short term, what we’re really measuring is just what students know in a very short period of time. And I think it’s more broadly important to move away from that protocol. We should be measuring things at larger time intervals in general.

John: So, what did you find? How large were the effects?

STEVEN So in both stages, first of all, students who had received interleaved practice did significantly better. So, both from the perspective of it being a statistically significant finding, but also in the size of the effect. In stage one, the effect size was 0.4, which for those who maybe haven’t used such measures before, that would be considered like a medium-effect size, a moderate size of an effect. But in an authentic educational context, like in the wild where we’re doing this experiment, it actually might be considered a kind of a large one, because in general effect sizes, not in the lab, for studies that are done in a setting like a classroom, effects tend to be somewhat smaller, because it’s like all the different things that are going on. But in stage two, the effect size was 0.9, which means this is a very large effect, especially by the standard of educational interventions in classrooms. And just for those who, like I said before, effect size is not something their familiar with, in stage one, tthe average performance for blocked students in stage one was 0.43, which means that they answered 43% of the rubric items correctly, whereas in the interleaved class, it was 0.54, so they answered 54% correctly. And in stage two, the blocked students answered 27% of the rubric items correctly and 47% in the interleaved group. So it was a larger difference.

Rebecca: I’m curious about the second stage in that, if they’ve already been surprised one time, were they then primed to get a surprise a second time and maybe motivated more effort and time on homeworks?

Josh: So interestingly, one thing we did in the study, which is part of the published data, is we asked students to report how much study time they devoted before the surprise test. We also asked them to report how surprised they were that there was a surprise test during the review session. And interestingly enough, the surprisal remained very high the second time, and the amount of studying students did before the surprise test beyond the homework was still quite low. So at least from the self-reported measure, we can be pretty confident that things were pretty similar in both of the stages in that respect.

Steven: Perhaps though, if we did this a third time, maybe that would no longer be the case, but it worked both times.

John: Some of our listeners might be wondering how you counted the surprise test? How did you include this in the computation of their grade.

Josh: So in the end, actually, this had no effect on the computation of their grade. When the surprise test was administered, I did offer 1% extra credit to students based on their performance, but it didn’t actually affect the core grading rubric. So we wanted to make sure that if there were, in fact, big differences in performance, it wouldn’t adversely affect anyone in the long term in terms of their grade.

Rebecca: After having this intervention twice in the classes, sid you talk with students about this practice and its impact on them?

Josh: You mean students in those particular classes?

Rebecca: Yeah, after the fact.

Josh: I actually have not. That’s an interesting question. Actually, I haven’t even really seen very many of them to be honest. I teach so many students that it’s very rare for me to interact with anyone from previous classes, because everyone’s so busy. There were one or two instances of this, and they were very surprised and interested, actually, to see the results, but nothing particularly large scale.

Steven: One thing we did do, though, was for the homework assignments, have students rate after they completed those assignments, how well they thought they had learned and so on. And in those ratings, they didn’t seem to show any evidence that one particular homework type, namely interleaving, would actually be better than the other type.

John: Why might interleaved practice have this sort of positive effect on longer-term recall.

STEVEN So there are a variety of viable sort of explanations for the benefits we observed here. And I like to sort of categorize them… actually, Josh and I like to categorize them… sort of into two main categories, first, being interleaving, sort of engaging long-term memory processes, and that enhancing learning, and then the second being interleaving actually promoting specific kinds of learning that are unique, that you don’t get when you engage in blocking. So, with the first, it’s based on the idea that, with interleaving, when you encounter a given problem type, you don’t revisit it again until some time has passed, there has been some spacing or distributed practice. And in the learning sciences literature, distributed practice (or revisiting information after a delay) is actually a very potent enhancer of long-term memory. So again, with interleaving, you see one problem type, and you’re practicing other problem types, you don’t return to that original problem type until sometime later. And so, because of that spacing, the next time you encounter something, the students are going to have to recall from long-term memory, what they remember about that particular problem type in order to solve it, and so that long-term memory that’s constantly being engaged by interleaving, may be enhancing learning. So that’s sort of the first explanation. And the second set of explanations really involves interleaving because you’re switching back and forth between these problem types. This may afford you the opportunity to sort of compare and contrast one problem type with the next. And that can yield a host of possible benefits. You may become better, for example, at going beyond surface features, but actually recognizing what really distinguishes one problem type from the next. So on the surprise exam, you actually can tell this problem type from the next. You can also perhaps get better practice at choosing the right strategy to solve a given problem versus another. And also, our surprise tests had some problems in which students had to combine strategies from multiple problem types in order to come up with a solution. And so it’s possible that with interleaving, because students were switching between problem types, that might have given them the opportunity to think about what relates one problem type to the next, and that could have enabled them to be better able to combine strategies to solve these surprise test problems. None of those kinds of learning are possible with blocking, because you’re focused on one problem type at a time, there’s no switching, no ability to compare and contrast, and so none of those learning opportunities occur. So those are all possible explanations for how interleaving is enhancing learning in this particular study. And it’s also possible that multiple mechanisms are at play here, resulting in this powerful benefit.

John: In some of the lab experiments involving interleaved practice, generally, when students were exposed to interleaved practice, they felt they were not learning as much. When they were exposed to blocked practice, they thought they were learning more, yet the longer-term testing results in most of those experiments suggests that the opposite was true. Why is it that we so often see this sort of metacognitive illusion, where students perceive things that are beneficial as being less helpful, while the types of strategies they most typically use as being more useful?

Josh:: Maybe I can first of all say one thing just about what we actually measured in terms of judgments of learning very specifically, I think Steven did touch on this a bit earlier, but it might be interesting for the listeners to hear that we’ve actually measured two things. So we measured perceived difficulty of the homework. So right after students worked on an assignment, they rated the perceived difficulty, and we also measured judgments of how much they learned during that homework assignment, on that particular set of concepts. And in those two cases, interestingly, students tend to view blocking as being easier, which maybe actually is pretty intuitive because when you kind of are doing the same thing over and over again, you get this fluidity with it and you get into the state where you kind of know what you’re doing and you don’t have to think too hard about it. And I think that probably is what contributes to some degree to what you’re saying… why students don’t maybe respond so well to interleaving. Because you don’t get that fluid feeling of, “Okay, I’m kind of rolling, I’m doing these problems, and I know how to do them all.” So they perceive them as being easier. And they also felt like they learned more… possibly also, because they’re conflating this sense that they’re really fluid with how much they’re actually learning, which it turns out may not actually be the case, and probably isn’t the case. And in fact, that’s what we found here, is that. in both stages, this is what we found in terms of the perceptions. But in both stages, students did better on the surprise test. But also, interestingly enough, students in the blocked group did do better on their homework in general than students in the interleaved group. So it was easier for them. So in some sense, they were accurate about how hard the homework was for them. But they were inaccurate about what that meant in terms of their learning. And maybe I’ll let Steven go beyond what I said about why this may happen. But that’s one idea.

Steven: Yeah, I agree with that interpretation, I would add that one of the sources of metacognitive illusions relating to effective learning strategies involves students, learners, sort of conflating performance with learning. So how well you were actually doing in the moment with how much you’re actually learning sort of underneath everything. And, with blocking, and a variety of learning techniques that are actually less effective of the long term, they can give you high levels of performance as you’re using them, sometimes because they make the learning task much easier. And in our case, with blocking, because your practicing the same type of problem over and over, perhaps after the first problem, you no longer really have to work all that hard, you just repeat the same procedure… performance level is high. So students may infer that oh, well, I’m doing really well, I must be learning quite effectively. But actually, the underlying learning is quite low, whereas with interleaving, the performance level is not as high because they’re switching, it’s more difficult, they may then infer that, “Oh, my performance is low, I’m not doing so well, I’m not necessarily learning as well.” But actually, that struggle is very beneficial for learning over the long term. But this sort of inability to differentiate between learning versus performance, because performance is not always a direct indicator of the underlying learning, may be the source of this sort of disparity.

Rebecca: I love that you’re bringing this up, Steven, because I think a lot of times students or even folks that are new and in a professional position too, that are just starting out as an emerging whatever, whatever field they’re in, feel like they need to perform. And there’s this pressure or grades are often assigned based on performance, rather than the idea that learning and growing requires some struggle. And we don’t always think about that or encourage that.

STEVEN Oh, absolutely, yes.

Josh: Yeah, I think this has some implications for student mindset in general. We talk very often these days about growth mindset, and students having growth mindset being beneficial. I think students internalizing these sorts of results, although it’s very hard to get students to do that, may go some way in convincing them or helping them generate a mindset for themselves of growth, as opposed to a fixed mindset. So, understanding that things that actually are effective for learning oftentimes feel very difficult and lead to lower performance.

Steven: And I would just add on that, some of the more difficult but more effective in the long term learning techniques, they result in more mistakes and more errors. And certainly with interleaving, we saw a greater rate of problems being solved incorrectly than in the blocked condition, so students were making more mistakes. But the act of making those mistakes was not necessarily detrimental for learning in the long term.

Rebecca: Now, we can just get our assessments and things like this to match with that idea…

Josh: Yeah,

Rebecca: …we’d be all set. [LAUGHTER]

Steven: That would solve all our problems.

John: A lot of it, I think, is just the difficulty of convincing students of these issues, that there is benefit from making mistakes, and there’s some substantial learning gains from that. And it’s something I’ve been trying to do in my classes for a long time, without as much success as I’d like. Students like to feel good about their learning, and they like to be successful immediately. But that’s not consistent with long-term recall, or transfer ability.

Josh: Before I forget, along these lines, in terms of student perception, and judgments of learning, there’s kind of a couple of funny anecdotes along the following lines. So, when I was giving the surprise tests, students are shocked. And you can kind of hear this audible thing in the room with like, “Oh my god, we’re doing the surprise test…” and increasing anxiety and all these things. And something that I noticed, and you have to be, of course, very careful about these sorts of anecdotes, but I think it’s possibly indicative of something deeper. What I noticed was, in the blocked conditions, when they were taking the surprise test, there actually were a number of students who immediately decided to give up and turn in their tests. And basically unsolicited said to me, “I haven’t done any studying, how could I possibly answer any of these questions?” And so there’s this interesting thing where students somehow perceive the practice that they were doing as being completely useless. There were a few students in the blocked condition, in particular, who felt this way. And they only felt that after having crammed for an exam, would they be prepared. So there’s this kind of interesting, just also cultural, sort of perception around practice where somehow this spaced practice that they were doing this entire time, was not really doing anything for them and they had to cram to do well on the test. So I think it just speaks again to these kind of conceptions student have about learning, and oftentimes these illusions about learning that are really detrimental.

Rebecca: Yeah, I was just reflecting on what you were saying, Josh, and that I’ve definitely had the same experience with students. I teach web design. So I teach something very different. But we might work on a new project or a new assignment, and so we’re revisiting stuff from the past over and over again, because to start a new project, you have to know the things that we did before. And students will say, “Oh, I can’t do this. We haven’t done this in a while.” So just remembering many of these same instances [LAUGHTER] reflect the same idea. A lot of our textbooks and even adaptive learning platforms are primarily set up to encourage blocked practice, and many of our courses too, and what are some ways that faculty can build interleaved practice into our course design? …maybe beyond there’s the homeworks, as you mentioned, but are there other ways that we can start thinking about it in our practice?

Josh: Yeah, so firstly, one thing that any instructor can do that might promote kind of like an organic form of interleaved practice is to make sure their course is cumulative to a large extent. So if you tell students from the outset that you’re going to have a one midterm on so and so material that’s right before the midterm and this other midterm on so and so material, they’re basically going to focus on that material. And they’re not necessarily going to mix what they learned in that section with what they learned in sections for other tests. So if your course and your exams are cumulative, meaning that you are, for example, testing on a variety of topics, as opposed to just a single topic at a time, it’s a natural incentive for students to interleave their practice, because they need to do that for the exam. And in those cases, it’s probably a good idea to encourage students and say, “Well, you know, the structure of the test is going to be that it’s going to have mixed problems. And so it makes sense for you to mix your practice…” and you don’t even necessarily need to explain what interleaving is for someone to kind of feel like, it’s probably a good idea for me to mix my practice if the test is going to be mixed. Also, I know you said beyond the homework, but it actually can be logistically challenging to do interleaving If you haven’t thought about the sort of schedule you would need to use. I think the schedule we have in our paper actually is a good model for this because we had to think for some time about how you could actually do this effectively in a real classroom. And the main constraint to think about is that, with interleaving, if you’re mixing topics, you can only mix topics together you’ve already had before in the course, like something that students have learned something about. And so you just need to think sort of intentionally about: well, given the schedule of my class, and given the topics that we’ve covered, how spread out can I make the topics over the time that the students have to do the practice. So I’d recommend if people are looking for a concrete version of this, to see how you could arrange the schedule to make this happen. We have a diagram in our paper where you can see how they’ve been shuffled together, and it might be kind of helpful.

Steven: Yeah. And to add on to what Josh said, a lot of the work with interleaving is in the setup, sort of designing the interleave schedule. And probably one of the reasons why blocking is so popular is it’s frankly, much easier, you just: this week, I’m going to focus on this topic and once it’s done, I’m just going to move on. You don’t have to think about it again. With interleaving, the instructor beforehand, probably should sit down and think about: Okay, how am I going to make things cumulative? And then in the service of that, how am I going to perhaps arrange various learning activities where I’m going to require students to revisit other material? I’m going to perhaps mix things, randomize things in a way that is less predictable, less nicely, discreetly organized as a blocked schedule would be. And doing that would be a way to set up interleaving in advance and then just follow that schedule. I think it’s probably very difficult, possibly impossible, literally, to have interleaving sort of introduced midway through. You should plan it in advance and then execute it, and then all the difficult work is done up front.

Josh: And you mentioned also adaptive learning technologies. And at UCLA, for example, we use online homework systems that do automatic grading of assignments and problem banks and things like that. One really easy thing you could do if you use such a tool is just to try to shuffle the problems together from different topics. So we use something called Mastering Physics and on that platform, you can pick and choose the problems very easily, and you don’t want to think too hard about it. You could just make sure that you have problems from different sections mixed in as opposed to when you give a given homework only problems from this one section in the book.

Steven: Also explaining to students from the outset, sending out the expectation that interleaving of the materials will happen and it’s by design, because you could even say potentially that the exam isn’t necessarily going to be nicely organized, where you’re going to be told this problem is on Chapter one, this next problem is gonna be on Chapter Two, it’s probably going to be mixed together, so why not practice in a way that is similar to the actual exam. And moreover, in real life, everyday circumstance, usually, the next situation you encounter is not necessarily predictable and a repeat of what you just saw. Things are often interleaved in the real world. So in a way, engaging in interleaving is kind of a better proxy for what you actually have to do when you apply skills.

Josh: But I would say one last thing, just in terms of implementation, as with many of these sorts of things, you have to know ahead of time that there might be some student resistance. Because the homework is going to feel a little bit more difficult, you have to be prepared that some students are going to say, “Well, this is totally different than what I’m used to” …and maybe feel like it’s just the wrong way to do things. And so you just have to be prepared as an instructor, as an educator. We know this as educators, that we encounter resistance, but it’s a good thing to know ahead of time.

Rebecca: I think one of the key things when we’re introducing techniques that feel like a struggle, where we might fail is that there’s room to fail and not have long-term consequences in terms of grades and things and to think about making sure that we’re setting these things up in a way that promotes learning and promotes engagement with the method rather than just resisting it or just being really upset about how it might negatively impact a grade. Because also when we have emotions running high that are negative, like that’s not going to help our learning either. [LAUGHTER]

Steven: Right and making, I think, some of these activities low stakes, and not being highly detrimental to one’s grade if one bombs an assignments that’s interleaved, probably would be very palatable to students, but would lower that anxiety,

John: One of the things I’ve been doing for about a decade or so now is using progressively cumulative exams in my large class where I have weekly quizzes that a growing share of them are drawn randomly from earlier portions of the course and student resistance to that is pretty high, I do talk to them about the benefits of interleaved practice. But when they’re trying to work through the exam, and they’re trying to remember things from a month or so before, they don’t find that quite as pleasant. But reminding them that the more effort they put into this, the more they’re going to remember in the future, and that the goal of the class isn’t to get them the highest grades on their exams, it’s to give them a preparation in the discipline that’s going to let them be more successful when they take upper-level classes that build on this foundation. That’s what I tell them, and some students do accept that. But I wouldn’t say it’s a universal acceptance of this.

Rebecca: It’s so hard, John.

Josh: Yeah, who would have thought that the purpose of education is for you to remember things a month in the future?

Steven: It’s always a conundrum that perhaps the most effective instructors are not necessarily the most popular instructors. [LAUGHTER]

John: What does the evidence suggest about interleaving, across disciplines and across different types of concepts? Does it seem to work as well in all disciplines?

Steven: There seems to be a promotion of interleaved practice, particularly, I think, in the popular media that latched on to this technique and think, oh, wow, it’s really amazing and counterintuitive and cool. I’m going to recommend it broadly. And I think one of the concerns with that is then you have suggestions to interleave just anything under the sun and in any way. And although the effect of interleaving in controlled studies, in many cases, has been very, very promising, that isn’t necessarily a license to just interleave anything. And in particular, one of the sort of potential moderating factors is maybe the degree to which the materials that you’re interleaving are confusable, or similar with one another. And that may be really critical. So you can’t just interleave my say physics homework with history homework, and things like that. But the problem is then, when some people read these articles online, that say interleave, they don’t get that nuance. I think that’s a bit of a concern. And further, beyond that, there does seem to be different benefits, depending on the type of material. So, about two years ago, some researchers in Germany conducted a meta analysis. And for those listeners who may not be familiar, that’s sort of a statistical analysis of multiple studies in a given literature. And they did this meta analysis on interleaving studies, a good portion of them. And they found that the interleaving benefits were especially strong for perceptual categories like bird families and things like that, learning to recognize pictures. And whereas for text-based materials, like expository texts and short kind of non-visual materials, there was no substantial interleaving benefits. So I think that sort of raises a cautionary note that we don’t know the extent to which interleaving enhances learning across the wide space of possible things that you could use it for. And actually, that was one of the motivations for our current study, because we were thinking, would it actually work in the domain of physics? That hadn’t been investigated before. And actually, very few studies have been conducted in undergraduate classrooms. And so there was lots of unanswered questions that had not actually been empirically tested that we examined in this particular case. And again, yet other circumstances warrant further investigation before interleaving, I think, could be confidently used.

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking: what’s next?

Josh: For us, in the sense of research on interleaving, what’s next is getting at this question of generalizability. How broadly across different types of learning, different contexts, do our results generalize. And we think of tackling this in a couple of ways. The first is, you could tackle this from a theoretical and mechanistic standpoint, meaning if you could understand why interleaving works, and be pretty confident about the factors that lead to why it works, then you can look at it in a given scenario and ask yourself, “Well, do those factors exist in this scenario, and therefore, can we be confident that it’s going to generalize to this scenario?” …so, sort of mechanistic theoretical line to understand its generalizability. And the other option is just to scale. So you could, for example, scale our experiment to something that goes across many disciplines simultaneously. We think both of those are really important and promising directions for future research. So, for us, we think, in the broader scope of interleaving research, that’s kind of a nice thing to investigate next. But also, I just want to say that in terms of just interleaving versus blocking, an interesting questions about interleaving versus blocking, there’s still a question that is largely unanswered, what about some sort of a hybrid schedule? Sometimes we think to ourselves, and I think we actually personally have this intuition, that some degree of blocking at the beginning of a very novice learner’s learning might actually be very beneficial. So, for example, imagine you’re learning to play piano, and your instructor teaches you three different scales, and you’ve never played the scales before, and then asks you to play the scales interleaved. So, play this one scale, then play the next scale, play the next scale. You may just be so non-fluid with playing these scales that perhaps your practice won’t actually be very beneficial, even if it’s interleaved. Maybe you need to play one of the scales two or three times over and then start the interleaving. The same may be true for mathematics learning or for problem solving in physics. So there’s still very much open questions about things like that, like, what exactly is an optimal schedule, and under what conditions do these optimal schedules need to be applied.

Steven: And to add on that, sort of the robustness of the interleaving effect across extended durations, perhaps longer than the four weeks that we sort of implemented interleaving assignments, and then had the surprise exam and different, maybe more advanced, materials, rather than an introductory course, maybe a more advanced level course where the students are already coming in with more pre existing knowledge that’s relevant, and so on. There are lots of possibilities to explore as to the extent to which this sort of interleaving effect generalizes to a variety of different educational circumstances.

Josh: I think talking about scale and understanding how this works across disciplines. I also want to say as sort of a tangential note that I’m a physicist by training, Steven is a cognitive psychologist. We connected in a little bit of a sort of random way at UCLA. But it’s been an incredible thing, having an interdisciplinary collaboration. And I think in our view, such collaborations are just really powerful and useful in the science of learning, in particular, that is becoming this very multidisciplinary field. So on a broader note, I hope what’s next for the science of learning is more of this sort of collaboration across disciplines.

Steven: Yes, and both of us brought unique perspectives and skill sets to this particular project. And it ended up working just marvelously. And hopefully there’ll be more of that in the future.

John: Well, thank you. We really enjoyed reading your study, and I think it’s a really nice contribution to the science of learning.

Josh: Thank you for having us.

Steven: Thank you.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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