400. Snafu Edu

Most books and resources devoted to professional development focus on strategies that faculty can use to create a positive learning environment for our students, but generally assume that everything will work as expected. In this episode, Jessamyn Neuhaus joins us to discuss her new book, Snafu Edu, which acknowledges the reality that everything does not always work as we hope that it will, and suggests strategies for addressing common situations in which things go wrong.

Jessamyn is the Director of the Center for Teaching and Learning Excellence and Professor in the School of Education at Syracuse University. She is a historian and the editor of Teaching History: A Journal of Methods. Jessamyn has published extensively in scholarly publications in the areas of history, pedagogy, and cultural studies. She is a recipient of the SUNY Chancellor’s Award for Teaching. Jessamyn is the author of  Geeky Pedagogy: A Guide for Intellectuals, Introverts, and Nerds Who Want to be Effective Teachers, and the editor of Picture a Professor: Interrupting Biases about Faculty and Increasing Student Learning. Her newest book, Snafu Edu: Teaching and Learning When Things Go Wrong in the College Classroom will be released shortly by the Oklahoma University Press series on Teaching, Engaging, and Thriving in Higher Education, edited by James Lang and Michelle Miller.

Show Notes

  • Jessmyn Neuhaus
  • Teaching History: A Journal of Methods
  • Neuhaus, J. (2019). Geeky pedagogy: A guide for intellectuals, introverts, and nerds who want to be effective teachers. Morgantown: West Virginia University Press.
  • Neuhaus, J. (2022). Picture a professor: Interrupting biases about faculty and increasing student learning. West Virginia University Press.
  • Neuhaus, J. (2025). Snafu Edu: Teaching and Learning When Things Go Wrong in the College Classroom. Oklahoma University Press.
  • Neuhaus, J. (2003). Manly meals and mom’s home cooking: Cookbooks and gender in modern America. JHU Press.
  • Neuhaus, J. (2011). Housework and housewives in American advertising: Married to the mop. Springer.
  • Harlow, R. (2003). ” Race doesn’t matter, but…”: The effect of race on professors’ experiences and emotion management in the undergraduate college classroom. Social psychology quarterly, 348-363.
  • Barbeau, L., & Happel, C. C. (2023). Critical teaching behaviors: Defining, documenting, and discussing good teaching. Routledge.
  • Lauren Barbeau and Claudia Cornejo Happel (2025). Critical Teaching Behaviors. Tea for Teaching podcast. Episode 390. April 23.
  • Felten, P., & Lambert, L. M. (2020). Relationship-rich education: How Human Connections Drive Success in College. Johns Hopkins University Press.
  • Lang, J. M. (2020). Distracted: Why students can’t focus and what you can do about it. Hachette UK.
  • Palmer, P. J. (2017). The courage to teach guide for reflection and renewal. John Wiley & Sons.
  • Miller, M. D. (2024). A Teacher’s Guide to Learning Student Names: Why You Should, Why It’s Hard, How You Can (Vol. 2). University of Oklahoma Press.
  • Pittman, Chavella (2025, forthcoming). Empowered: A Woman Faculty of Color’s Guide to Teaching and Thriving. University of Oklahoma Press.
  • Piven, J., & Borgenicht, D. (2010). The worst-case scenario survival handbook: travel. Chronicle Books.
  • Norell, Elizabeth A. (2024). The Present Professor: Authenticity and Transformational Teaching. University of Oklahoma Press.

Transcript

Rebecca: Since we began this podcast in November 2017, we’ve had hundreds of opportunities to have extended conversations with many innovators, researchers, educators, thought leaders, and advocates working to support student learning. We are grateful to all of our guests who have so generously contributed their time, to the new friends and colleagues we’ve gained, and for all of our listeners. We’re excited that our friend and colleague, Jessamyn Neuhaus joined us to celebrate in our 400th episode.

John: And now we return to our regularly scheduled programming.

John:Most books and resources devoted to professional development focus on strategies that faculty can use to create a positive learning environment for our students, but generally assume that everything will work as expected. In this episode, we discuss a new resource that acknowledges the reality that everything does not always work as we hope that it will, and suggests strategies for addressing common situations in which things go wrong.

[MUSIC]

John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

[MUSIC]

Rebecca: Our guest today is Jessamyn Neuhaus. Jessamyn is the Director of the Center for Teaching and Learning Excellence and Professor in the School of Education at Syracuse University. Jessamyn is an historian and the editor of Teaching History: A Journal of Methods. Jessamyn has published extensively in scholarly publications in the areas of history, pedagogy, and cultural studies. She is a recipient of the SUNY Chancellor’s Award for Teaching. Jessamyn is the author of Geeky Pedagogy: A Guide for Intellectuals, Introverts, and Nerds Who Want to be Effective Teachers, and the editor of Picture a Professor: Interrupting Biases about Faculty and Increasing Student Learning. Her newest book, Snafu Edu: Teaching and Learning When Things Go Wrong in the College Classroom will be released shortly by the Oklahoma University Press series on Teaching, Engaging, and Thriving in Higher Education, edited by James Lang and Michelle Miller. Welcome back, Jessamyn.

Jessamyn: Thank you. I’m so glad to be here.

John: It’s good to see you again. Today’s teas are:… Jessamyn, are you drinking tea?

Jessamyn: Tea is my afternoon beverage, and we’re recording this in the morning. So I’ve got a very large cup of high octane coffee.

Rebecca: A good way to power the day.

Jessamyn: Exactly.

Rebecca: I have Yunnan Noir today.

John: Very good. And I have a ginger peach green tea today.

Rebecca: Nice. We’re invited here today to discuss Snafu Edu. Can you tell us the origin story of this book?

Jessamyn: Yes, so John and Rebecca, let me take you back in time to the late 1990s, dawn of the internet age. Grunge was king, and I was pursuing my doctorate in U.S. History and Gender Studies, and in doing that research, I became just utterly fascinated with 20th century prescriptive texts, things that reinforced sociocultural and especially domestic ideology, normative domestic ideology. I mean stuff like cookbooks, etiquette guides, 1950s mental hygiene films. And so as a scholar in the archives, that’s what I loved examining in the most, this evidence, these leftovers, of what people at different points in time had decided was the best, most ideal way to live and be, especially at home and at school. And if you’re fascinated by those things, here’s a shameless plug, check out my first two books, which were published in my work in history. One’s on cookbooks, and one is on gender and advertising representation of housewives. So anyway, as a scholar of teaching and learning, I’ve always had that little research fascination in the back of my mind. I kind of question about how advice and research about teaching reinforces certain norms and ideals, not intentionally or consciously, but as discourse, as texts doing ideological work in culture. So I was always thinking, could I maybe write something about teaching, give actionable advice about teaching, like in real life, that interrupted some of those prescriptive ideals. I wanted to write a book that would be useful in people’s daily teaching work. That was the great joy after I published Geeky Pedagogy was hearing from people who were able to use it in their just day-to-day work and drawing on the abundant research about effective teaching practices, and at the same time, in Snafu Edu, I wanted to emphasize that that daily teaching work is, in a word, it’s messy, and it’s not a matter of if, but when something will go awry. And then that was all percolating, and it got cemented in the post-pandemic years so when something had really, really gone wrong in a major way, and the time was right for me, as an author, because I’m fortunate at this point in my career to have something of a platform. I’m no James Lang or Sarah Rose Cavanagh, but I have the ability in the world of educational development and in scholarship about teaching, I have some power to get my work published and to speak to people about things I think are important, the things that I believe need more attention, that we need to talk about more. I’m in a position to be able to articulate those and get some listeners. And what I wanted to articulate this time in this book, is, OMG, things can go really, really wrong in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: I know when I was reading, Jessamyn, I felt like you totally captured the messiness, and certainly the messiness of my classroom and many other colleagues that I have. [LAUGHTER]

Jessamyn: Excellent.

John: And I think that will resonate with probably all of your readers. So, speaking of readers, who is the target audience? Is it for faculty just starting off, or for faculty at all stages of their careers?

Jessamyn: Well, my audience is anyone who’s in an instructional role on a college campus. I have been thinking more and more about the ways that teaching happens, not just in classrooms, not just with professors, but all kinds of people in designated staff positions as well. And I am very attentive to what Roxanna Harlow termed disparate teaching realities, meaning that teaching labor is really shaped by every individual’s intersectional positionality, including our embodied identities. And so my hope is that, with those things in mind, anyone and anybody in any teaching context can find it useful. I do think it will be useful for anyone at any stage in their career, but I think it’s going to especially resonate with mid-career educators, basically, anyone who’s been teaching long enough, and it might just even be a couple classes, but anyone who’s been teaching long enough to have made some serious bloopers and experience students making big mistakes too.

Rebecca: Definitely does something to establish some sort of [LAUGHTER] community around the realities of teaching.

Jessamyn: Yeah, so you have some experiences to think back on. I would say, especially for a large section of us, the experiences that kept you up at night, that you tossed and turned, reliving, wondering what you should have done differently, torturing yourself about what went wrong, it would be helpful to have a couple of those in your mind when you pick up this book.

Rebecca: So, I know that we’ve talked about, and you’ve certainly written about in your work, the idea that one size fits all professional development doesn’t really work. So can you talk a little bit about why there’s just no simple solutions to the common problems in education? [LAUGHTER]

Jessamyn: Yeah, I mean, humans gotta human. [LAUGHTER] Nobody’s a widget moving through the world like a product on a factory belt. Every person has their own unique set of experiences, life circumstances, pet peeves, passion projects. I know, for example, Dr. John Kane is a musician and makes a lot of time and effort in his life to play music. There’s things that just matter to us more than maybe matter to other people. And especially in our work, everybody’s bringing with them into the classroom a whole huge honking set of emotional and cognitive baggage that they’ve acquired during their previous or even concurrent experiences in educational settings. I mean, it’s a lot. And also what we’re here to do is incredibly hard. Learning is very, very hard. It often, usually always entails setbacks, and that includes learning how to teach effectively. So, in my view, this reality needs more direct and specific highlighting in discourse about teaching. We just need to talk a lot more about the fact that teaching is not a perfectible activity. And it’s not that anyone’s out there saying teaching is perfectable. No one would say that consciously, but there’s a real strong subtext and a lot of discourse about teaching that, in even, like otherwise, really excellent advice about teaching that, if you just do it, everything will be fixed, everything will be perfect, and that’s not possible.

Rebecca: You talked about the bloopers, but I think a lot of people feel really isolated when those bloopers occur, or those are the things [LAUGHTER]they don’t want to share.

Jessamyn: Yeah, exactly, for many reasons, teaching in higher education is absolutely a closed door culture, and it’s really hard to describe to people who are not college teachers, even people in K through 12, like the dynamic, where if another professor walked into your room when you were teaching, it would be shocking. You would stop. You would be stunned. What are you doing here? …would be absolutely the feeling. It’s a closed, locked, barricaded door around teaching in higher education. So yeah, the stakes are super, super high for when something goes wrong.

John: One of the issues that you’ve just mentioned is that people are working in their own little silos. And when things go wrong, they often don’t talk about it with other people, and as a result, everyone imagines that [LAUGHTER] everything’s going really well for everyone else, and then you have those sleepless nights. And faculty respond to that in different ways. Some people will blame themselves and will struggle with it. Other people might blame their students, and we see a lot of that as well….

Jessamyn: …or both… [LAUGHTER]

John: …or some combination thereof. Why are faculty so resistant to share their experiences with other colleagues?

Jessamyn: I could sum it up in two words: graduate school. A whole bunch of us, not every single person, but a whole bunch of us in higher education, we’ve been quite literally trained in how to wield our intellect like a weapon, and to always try to be the smartest person in the room. I’m exaggerating, and obviously our positionalities, identities, really shape our experience with graduate school. But I do think there’s a culture in academia that feeds perfectionism generally, that you never expose your vulnerable underbelly to the other smarty pants in the room. And I think teaching is especially fraught because of our limited and limiting ideas about what good teaching looks like.

Rebecca: How do we start to normalize this idea of discussing our snafus? Is there things that professional development like teaching centers should be doing? Are there things that administrators should be doing?

Jessamyn: Well, I have two thoughts on this. One is highly aspirational, [LAUGHTER] probably not possible. One is more immediately doable. So in my utopian vision of life as a college educator, everyone will gather every spring for a campus wide oops day, like the only thing we’re doing is discussing all the things that we personally did wrong and all the things that went wrong in our classrooms. And we could include some brainstorming about what to do better next time, but that wouldn’t be the main point. The main point would be, we’re gonna bring out into the light, all the monsters under the bed, the things that went wrong. And as we know from every story about monsters ever, like, once we bring them into the light, they’ll shrivel up and blow away. So probably not too realistic, but more practically speaking, we can advocate at every stage and in every way that when we’re formally evaluating teaching that we need better language and systems for recognizing and then documenting every instructor’s growth narrative of teaching advocacy. I’m really influenced here by the book Critical teaching behaviors: Defining, documenting, and discussing good teaching, by Lauren Barbeau and Claudia Happle, they offer a framework based on six identifiable instructor behaviors, and they argue there’s a vast amount of work that effective teachers do before, during, outside of class meetings in order to facilitate student learning. So leaders, that includes your promotion and tenure chairs, department chairs, administrators, they need to do everything they can to define effective teaching as a career-long process, and that has to include pedagogical learning and reflection, trying new things, assessing and adapting, and importantly, that in that growth narrative, because it’s about growth and learning, there will be mistakes and missteps, but that is evidence of growth, not evidence of ineffective teaching.

John: You mentioned the work by Lauren Barbeau and by Claudia Happle. We had an earlier podcast with them in the spring of 2025 and we’ll share a link to that in the show notes. To help build this sort of discussion, it’s really important that teaching centers have the trust of faculty. And one of the things I think we’ve both seen is that when we have faculty reading groups and people are talking about things that work well and things that don’t work well, it helps to develop that sort of trust. Would this book be a good focus for a faculty reading group?

Jessamyn: Yes, I think so, of course. We would want to ensure, this is one thing I do mention in the book about classrooms, but we want to ensure psychological safety for our participants, making sure that everyone feels able to share ideas, bounce ideas off, and maybe flop, like, maybe suggest something that doesn’t really make sense, and definitely share all the things that we have personally flubbed. So framing it as we’re here to build our growth mindset and think about ways to keep moving forward in our own growth narrative, keeping those things in mind and maybe even more importantly, right now, I think this would be a good book for our present moment when, in fact, there are so many very, very big, truly, almost incomprehensible things going very, very wrong for higher education. These are being brought mostly by outside political and legislative attacks on our curriculums, on our programs, other essential aspects of our day-to-day work. I mean, it’s a true shit storm, and I wrote this before, the past administrative… what would you call it?

Rebecca: …the list of executive orders? [LAUGHTER]

Jessamyn: Yes, exactly. So I don’t discuss it in detail, but one thing I do mention, and what is happening now, is the beep storm that is happening right now on the heels of another major beep storm was the pandemic years, and even more, like for most faculty, the incredibly fast spread of generative AI has taken another big bite out of our cognitive emotional and even our physical stores of energy we have for teaching. So, it’s a good time to think about how educational development can support pedagogical wellness, and how something like a book club is not only a chance for us to learn stuff from experts in research about teaching, but also, and maybe right now more importantly, a place to build connections and community by talking honestly with each other about teaching and that has to include all the things that can and do go wrong. And I would take it as a very big personal victory if, in discussing this book, we could draw on the power of humor and laughter, even rueful laughter, maybe defiant laughter. I don’t mean mocking. I don’t mean laughing at students, but maybe by not always having to take ourselves so super seriously, we can counteract some of the incredibly demoralizing and discouraging realities about teaching, the ongoing disparate teaching realities, the perfectionism. I know not everyone is willing or able to engage in kind of self-deprecating joking that is my go to but that’s one reason I shared a bunch of my worst mistakes in this book. So if you can’t share your own for whatever reason, this is my public permission for you to use mine.

John: We’ll be doing a book club on our campus this fall, so we’ll let you know how that goes.

Jessamyn: And anyone who is doing a book club on Snafu Edu, I’m very happy to zoom in to do a Q and A with your group.

Rebecca: Awesome. I couldn’t help but imagine, while you were describing your utopian oops day, like a lot of laughter and things like “bravely sharing their blunder award,” or something, [LAUGHTER] like where everyone votes for the best blunder. [LAUGHTER]

Jessamyn: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] The face plant award, yeah.

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah, yeah.. I wanted to just share that I imagine that as it being a very joyful event, [LAUGHTER] despite the hard conversations.

Jessamyn: Yeah, that would be fun. I’m there. Send me an invite.

Rebecca: All right, sounds good. [LAUGHTER] You suggest a general approach throughout this book, addressing challenges in our classrooms, and summarize it with the acronym, STIR,, S-T-I-R. Can you talk about what STIR stands for and how one might use it?

Jessamyn: Sure, with the caveat I get that there’s already too many acronyms, and this is a pretty cheesy one, but part of the reason I went to the acronym is because of when things do go wrong, it’s hard to think clearly, and sometimes a snappy acronym can help keep us on track, can help us bring back to the present moment. So this particular one, it’s a variation on other kinds of conflict resolution strategies such as SOAR, which is stop, observe, assess, react. For Snafu Edu. I’m suggesting, for my audience of other brainiacs and eggheads in higher education, is Stop, Think, Identify, and Repair, and it’s just a way of framing some of the preparation we can do for when the snafus hit the fan, a reminder that in situations that pose problems, when things are about to go wrong, when things might go wrong, when things are going wrong, we can usually exercise some agency in the classroom and interactions with students by taking a beat to use our big brains, then think about what all might be going on, to approach with curiosity based on what we know from our research and the scholarship for teaching and learning from our wisdom of experience, try to identify what’s going on, and then to the extent that it’s possible, taking steps to repair the snafu. And this is a good place to note that my book doesn’t address the very worst case scenario for any classroom, active shooter threats or other kind of physical danger. That’s 91,1 not STIR.

Rebecca: I really like that you chose repair for the R, because there’s a lot of other words you could have maybe chosen that was a really important choice.

Jessamyn: I think so. It evokes trying to patch something up to the best you can. One thing that I really wanted to avoid was some of the cliches around making mistakes, or the discourse about making mistakes that it’s always inevitably going to lead to a good outcome. With the right “can do” attitude and the right frame of mind, you can always turn it into something really positive. That’s not true. I don’t believe that, and I didn’t want to even accidentally reinforce that with the word

John: Your book is broken up into five parts that address challenges in teaching and learning associated with inequity, disconnection, distrust, failure, and fear. Could you give us a couple of examples of some of the problems associated with these issues and how you might perhaps go through that STIR approach?

Jessamyn: Sure. The most important thing I want to say first is the thing that Snafu is really adding to the conversation is that those five things create problem and obstacles for learners and for us as educators. Most books about teaching, including my first book, Geeky Pedagogy, they focus mainly on the learner’s experience and strategies for addressing and reducing obstacles to student success and then conversely, research on like inequities faced by instructors often doesn’t also fold in that students are navigating those inequities as well. So in Snafu Edu I want to make sure that when we talk about things going wrong in the college classroom, we are talking about everybody in the college classroom, including us, including the instructors, including the TAs, including everybody. So for instance, inequity, systemic intersectional inequity, it exists no matter how much certain politicians want to convince us that it doesn’t… it exists. It creates obstacles to student learning, and it creates obstacles to effective teaching, especially for any faculty member who doesn’t, quote, unquote, look like a professor. Disconnection and distrust are also aspects of higher education that researchers have been showing for a long time really interfere with success, with major upticks in the post-pandemic era for obstacles to students’ academic success. So, like when a student just doesn’t feel connected in any meaningful way to the subject or the institution, it’s going to be a lot harder for them to persist, and Felton and Lambert’s book, Relationship-Rich Education shows us pretty darn definitively. But so too do instructors need to experience some sense of connection to their work, to the students, in a professionally appropriate way, to their institution. Otherwise things snafu up our work. They get in the way of our success. And distrust, so talk about snafus in the classroom, trust is just the bedrock for what we do, but often not central in our minds when things go wrong. So take for example, here’s one, 100% of people listening to this podcast will have experienced students engaging in non- class related scrolling, emailing, texting, online shopping and so on. There are many and many complicated reasons that our devices are so distracting in the classroom. There’s a bunch of strategies we might use to cultivate attention, covered really well, most recently by James M Lang’s book, Distracted: Why Students Can’t Focus, and What You Can Do About It. But even before all those strategies, we have to be aware that these interactions, even like you see it out of the corner of your eye, they can seriously erode our trust in students as a group. Another one that I think many listeners and readers will relate to is how even one, like literally even one, deliberately cruel, demeaning or even thoughtlessly worded comment on anonymous standardized end of student evaluations, how much that can damage our trust in students. And speaking of student behaviors, another one where it’s really important to think about it in terms of the snafu is fear, because student fear can manifest in behaviors that on the surface look like something else entirely, and not coincidentally, look like things that really can just drive us right up the wall, something that looks like complete disengagement, even hostility or inattention. It might be rooted in students’ really deep psychological physiological fear, completely unrelated to us, related to something else in their school experiences, related to something in their life circumstances. And I guess the last couple things I’ll say is that these snafus, one thing that really became clear as I was doing the research is that they’re both very common and systemic and almost universal, but then they’re also really shaped and defined in unique and individual ways. So, take failure. What does it mean to fail in college? What does it mean to fail in academia? I mean, we have some system wide metrics, like, literally an F for failure, but how that’s experienced by students, how they define it, is really shaped by their life experiences, their goals, their personality traits, what fields they’re interested in, and so on. And failure is tricky too, because by its very nature, learning has to include some failure. You have to do something not very well…and that might include, really just completely dropping the ball… you have to do something not very well before you can learn how to do it well, and that includes teaching. But again, we’re working in these bigger systems that can really interfere with our ability to engage in productive failure and mistakes.

Rebecca: Each part of your book uses a similar organizational structure where you kind of describe the problem, discuss possible repair strategies when things go wrong, and concludes with a discussion of proactive approaches and a go bag, [LAUGHTER] that reduce the likelihood or severity of the problems in that section. Can you talk a little bit about why you chose this particular organizational structure?

Jessamyn: Yeah, I so appreciate that question, because I really wrestled with how to structure the book in a way that supported my argument, we have to normalize mistakes, missteps and things going wrong in teaching and learning, and when I say normalize, part of that is recognizing that they take a real toll on us, that again, I didn’t want it to be like this cliched view of mistakes. I didn’t want it to read like I was saying, “Oh, well, we mess up sometimes, but it’s all a glorious process of learning, and we’re gonna hop on our Mr. Mess, the learning unicorn. We’re gonna fly up to the rainbow of perfect teaching and learning.” No. Things going wrong, it can really suck, and it’s not always resolved in a productive way. Sometimes things go wrong, period. There’s no silver lining, there’s no wisdom gained. It’s just bad and things go wrong. So the structure, how I thought about how to do this, the first section really is just an overview, but it lays out some of the most compelling evidence from the research about why things go wrong because of inequity, disconnection, distrust, failure, and fear. And I want to start there to really enforce why these snafus can be expected, and then building on that, the next chapter, again, is working to normalize snafus by focusing on what to do when they happen, and keeping in mind that, again, positionality and context always matters, and that the repair suggestions in the next section, they always have to be adapted to your teaching context, your personality, and what will work for you with where you’re at. But I didn’t want to just leave it there. I did want to make sure that readers were empowered as much as possible to exercise agency wherever and however they can. And increasing agency is my response to the snafus caused by fear. The opposite of fear isn’t exactly agency, it would be something like courage, like Parker Palmer’s The Courage to Teach, but I think courage is just a little bit too judgy. It’s a little bit too much to say to people, things go really wrong, but you have to be courageous. I don’t think that’s sufficient, in the year of our Lord 2025 to say, “be more courageous.” I think, though we can say for students as well, in the face of fear, that we can find ways to exercise agency. Agency is limited. It’s limited by things outside our control often, but there are places where we can exercise it in teaching and learning, in our classrooms, in our actions, in our course design. So those last chapters in each of the sections gives an overview of some, it’s not all of them, it’s just a selection of a couple high impact practices for increasing equity, increasing connections, increasing trust, increasing success and increasing agency. And in all cases, it’s about how to increase those things for ourselves as well as our students.

John: Can you give us an example of something going wrong in the classroom, some possible repair strategies and how to ameliorate future related issues so that people come prepared for such problems?

Jessamyn: Sure, let’s talk about one super, super common snafu that on the surface may seem like a small issue, but once you’ve delved into it, it touches on some really big ways that things can go wrong and can create real obstacles for teaching and learning: names, our names, and more specifically, learning, correctly pronouncing, and using each other’s names in class and in interactions with students… and wait, before everyone who teaches huge lecture classes of hundreds skips ahead. This does apply to all of us, all of us working in higher education or really, actually, any human person in any professional or social situation, names matter. Names always matter, even if you personally, you as an individual cannot memorize every single student’s name in your 300-person, 400-person lecture. That doesn’t mean that names aren’t important. I mean, they’re not just like labels. They’re not just widget labels. They’re the first and foremost expression of our subjectivity, of our ability to act and be in the world. And so to be recognized by names is to be recognized as a person. The scholarship on teaching and learning very clearly shows that when an instructor learns and uses student names, even if, like in a huge class, they can’t learn every single name or use them every single time. It improves students’ rapport with, perceptions of, the professor, and it can improve learning and engagement. But I would argue, just as important is students learning and using each other’s names, and students learning, correctly pronouncing, and using… and this is maybe controversial… but using a professor’s last name and their title. Yep, I’m going on record here to say that when you’re working with them in the classroom, in a class, students should call you Professor such and such, or Doctor so and so, because and here’s where names intersect with some of those big potential snafus. Names, and for professors, titles are closely tied to inclusivity in the classroom. So inclusivity, meaning that every single person, including the professor, has the maximum opportunity to learn, to engage with the material and to improve their skills. So professional titles really matter, because professors from historically marginalized populations must navigate, must mitigate, students’ preconceptions and stereotypes about academic expertise and authority. So just in short, students are more likely to call women and to call all faculty of color by their first name or Mrs., like in my case, than to call us professor. And of course, students’ sense of belonging and willingness to participate, even attend class, is demonstrably improved when people there, including the professor, know their name. But let’s be honest, it’s really hard. Learning names is really hard in any setting, and I have to give a major shout out here to Michelle Miller’s book. It’s a short guide, A Teacher’s Guide to Learning Student Names. I mean, like chef’s kiss, it should be required reading for everyone in higher education. There’s a lot of ways and means for learning student names, helping students learn each other’s names, and here’s where Snafu Edu comes in. There’s also so many ways this can go wrong. We can get students’ names wrong. We pronounce them incorrectly, we stumble, we fumble, and sometimes that can be pretty disastrous. Sometimes that can be in a way that reinforces stereotypes, that undermine students’ sense of belonging, and that is the same with students using each other’s names and students using our names incorrectly or not knowing them. So all those things could go wrong. When this happens to me, I use the first two repair strategies I discuss in the book for when I mess up a name, students messes up my name, I use a script. That’s my first strategy, and I apologize, my second strategy. So when I say a script, I don’t mean like a memorized monologue you’re using word for word, like a robot in every situation. I don’t mean literally a script like actors use, but I do mean having at the ready a collection of short phrases, a couple sentences that we can do almost automatically in tense or difficult situations. We are human people. When we’re dealing with other human people, we have some biological, even social, cultural, learned responses to potential conflict, problems, defensiveness. We may default to fight, freeze, fawn, or flee. Fawn was new to me, just recently. I know fight, freeze, or flee. Fawning means people pleasing, trying to appease someone, bending over backwards to placate and eliminate any perceived threat. So script in this context, doesn’t mean memorize, but does mean practice, like you have stood in your office and practiced. This is something Chavella Pittman, in her work, has recommended to faculty as well, that you do need to practice what you’re going to say. Now maybe you are so socially skilled and extroverted that you never for one second feel the need to practice your words. And if that’s true, like, how nice for you, like, [LAUGHTER] I love that for you. Good for you. But for the rest of us, scripts can really help. So my two combined strategies, scripts and apology, when I call a student the wrong name or I don’t remember their name. “I’m sorry, [Use the correct name].” That’s from Michelle Miller, like you got to use it to learn it. “I’m sorry, [Correct name]. Names are important. We’ve all been working on remembering them. I apologize for my error.” That’s it, short, simple, no need to get into any like explanations or defensiveness, just “sorry about that.” And to be clear, apologizing is never fun for anyone, and again, positionality and context always matters. It won’t look the same for everyone every time, but when we mess up, and we will mess up, a short, quick apology is an effective repair strategy. Using a script can ease the pain of that. And I have another one for when students call me, it’s usually Mrs. Neuhaus. Sometimes they try Jessamyn, but that’s can be hard to say, so they might default to Mrs. Neuhaus. So I have a script, and it’s something like, “Thank you for that question or comment. Before we discuss it, I just want to remind you that when we’re working together in this learning community, I asked to use my professional academic title, Professor Neuhaus. I know it’s not easy to remember, using everyone’s names isn’t easy. I appreciate your effort to do this,” something like that. These are my repair strategies, because of the ways that those small moments can really create big, big snafus in equity, trust, and connection, for educators, for us and for our students. So the final part of your question was, then, how might we reduce this in the future? It’s not easy. Again, from Michelle Miller’s work, I know that the key thing is to make it a priority and put in the time and effort to learn names and also structure classes and class activities so students can learn and use each other’s name, and more broadly, learning and using names goes to two important strategies I outline for increasing equity. We want to plan for learner variability, and we also want to plan for learner biases. So we want to proactively structure activities, office hours, interactions, knowing that we must expect and hey, let’s be joyful about this. We celebrate diversity as an academic asset, and that includes every unique and individual name. So that’s great. Let’s plan for that. Plan for ways to do that. If it means I’m going to have a shorter class the last day of our first week, because I’m going to make names the priority and I need time to practice them, then that’s what I’ll do. And two, the second one is also important, planning for ways that learner expectations or assumptions can flare up around names. So instead of getting caught in, “Oh my God, who is Mrs. Neuhaus, I spent so long in graduate school to get my PhD, do not call me Mrs. Neuhaus,” [LAUGHTER] like and then snapping “It’s Doctor, not Mrs.” I mean, that’s true, but is that helpful? Is that a good way to build connection, trust, equity and to move on productively? And does it feel good for me to do that? No, no, better is to have that practiced response, that script in my mind so we can address it and move on.

Rebecca: …In a much more calm fashion. Each chapter ends with a section called “gear for your go bag,” which we mentioned a little bit earlier. Can you talk a little bit about why you chose the metaphor of a go bag for these sections?

Jessamyn: Sure? Yeah, two reasons. One, just on a practical note, and especially for books like this one, that’s kind of crammed full of actionable teaching advice and you’re generating a lot of ideas as you’re reading it, it’s really helpful to have that concise summary at the end of the chapter. But second, I just love the metaphor. It resonates with the quotes that I use throughout the book, from the Worst-Case Scenario Survival Handbook. I deliberately chose this book, and I wanted to use it because it’s this very tongue in cheek, but also factual guide for surviving ludicrously terrible situations: your parachute doesn’t open, you get stuck in quicksand, you have to land a plane even though you’re not a pilot. And when I use it in my book, it’s this rejoinder to sanctimonious teaching advice that downplays or even ignores the reality of things going wrong, like “No, things go wrong.” So having a go bag in that context, it means you’re packed and ready for when things go sideways. In popular culture and in prepper world, it means you’re packed, ready to go when the apocalypse hits. So in the book, it’s just my little bit of a snarky way of saying we can at least have a few things to grab when something goes wrong.

John: What would you say is the major message that you’d like your readers to take away from this book.

Jessamyn: Sure, I have to start with a shout out to Liz Norell. She’s the author of The Present Professor. She was an early reader of Snafu in manuscript form, and she helped me identify and articulate three major ideas that run through the whole book and that I would like readers to take away into their teaching practices: humans mess up, inequities exist, but the super teacher does not exist. And don’t get me started too much on the super teacher. I’ll take up all the rest of my time. But since we haven’t mentioned it yet, the super teacher, I want you to think about the last time you saw a college professor character on a TV show or film, and specifically, were they teaching? And if they were teaching, what they were doing, they were lecturing. They’re always lecturing, but they’re not just lecturing. Their lectures are on this inherently fascinating topic, usually like psychosexual violence [LAUGHTER] or like serial killers. And students were mesmerized. They show, they always show… They depict the students. Nobody’s scrolling, nobody’s sleeping. They’re nodding. They’re eagerly raising their hands to ask questions. And after his, it’s not always, but often it’s, his lecture, his highly entertaining lecture that he gave with no notes whatsoever, the students might even feel moved to applaud. I mean, I ask you applause. Okay, so such depictions, they’re more than just amusingly inaccurate representations of the college classroom. They express this really persistent and powerful, limited and limiting assumption and expectation about what good teaching and authentic learning looks like. So it’s not just bad for teaching. It’s bad for learning, because in this representation, students do nothing but sit there and get entertained and somehow their heads are magically filled with knowledge. So it undermines our own self efficacy. It can undermine our self image. It really contributes to stereotypes around professors, and they are just born that way. The super professor’s not like going to the workshop and reflecting on pedagogical practices, and they’re definitely not messing up and then making an adjustment trying to do better. So it would make me really, really happy if, because of reading my book, any educator who gets caught in snafu, the first thing they think of is, “yep, humans mess up,” and then going forward, figuring out what to do next, keeping in mind that inequities exist, they’re reality, shaping everybody’s teaching and learning contexts, and that nobody can live up to that really impossible ideal that doesn’t reflect how teaching and learning actually works in real life, to stop, think, identify, and repair to the extent that is possible.

Rebecca: That seems like a great note to wrap up on, but we always wrap up by asking, “What’s next?”

Jessamyn: I am really excited about my current book project, which is going to be a guide for college educators to designing, assigning, assessing and, most importantly, enjoying, unessay projects.

Rebecca: That sounds fun.

Jessamyn: It’s going to be fun.

Rebecca: I like the underscore on the enjoying.

JESSMYN: Yes, yes. It’s the biggest ace in the hole for talking about unessays is that people who put in the work to design them, because it’s not easy, and assess them, also not easy, report that they have fun assessing them. That’s like a mind blowing, reality shattering statement, instead of slogging through grading, counting every minute you could have fun doing it. Yeah, let’s talk about that.

John: Fun is good. [LAUGHTER] Well, thank you. It’s always great talking to you, and we’re looking forward to future conversations.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Jessamyn: Thanks for having me.

Rebecca: I always appreciate that you put a full range of human emotion in talking about teaching and learning and enjoy your storytelling. So I’m glad folks will have the opportunity to read Snafu Edu soon. Thank you so much.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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394. Pacific Oaks’ Approach to AI

Generative AI tools are challenging traditional models of college instruction. In this episode, Camille Huggins, Yolanda Carlos, and Orlando Saiz join us to discuss how Pacific Oaks College is working to use these tools to more effectively support student learning. Camille, Yolanda, and Orlando were participants in an AI Institute offered at Pacific Oaks College this year.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Generative AI tools are challenging traditional models of college instruction. In this episode, we examine how one college is responding to more effectively support student learning.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guests today are faculty and administrators at Pacific Oaks College. Since we have several guests participating today, we’ll have each of our guests introduce themselves, describe their role at the institution, and state what type of tea they are drinking.

Camille: My name is Camille Huggins. I am a core faculty at the Pacific Oaks College for the last five years, and I’m Caribbean, so I like that strong Lipton yellow label tea. It has a lot of caffeine to it, it’s a good little balance with the lemon. New Yorkers, we love a lemon, no milk, so that’s what I’m doing today.

Yolanda: Sounds good. Camille, my name is Yolanda Carlos. I’m core faculty at Pacific Oaks College. I’m over at the BA and MA Early Childhood Education degree program, and I love Earl Grey with a bit of milk.

Orlando: My name is Orlando Saiz. I’m an administrative faculty and Director of Research at Pacific Oaks College in the EdD Early Childhood Education program. I normally drink coffee, but today I’m having the loose-leaf spearmint tea.

John: Very nice.

Rebecca: Yeah, some yummy tea choices for sure. John, are you drinking any tea today?

John: I am drinking a ginger peach green tea today.

Rebecca: Nice, John. I’ve switched things up, John, I have chai today.

John: That’s been a while.

Rebecca: I know, I know.

John: We’ve invited you here today to discuss the AI initiatives that you’ve been working on at Pacific Oaks, located in Pasadena, California, where it’s much warmer than it is here today. So first though, could you tell us a little bit about Pacific Oaks College and its institutional mission?

Yolanda: Sure, I’d be happy to. So yes, you’re right. The weather here in Pasadena, year round, is beautiful, and the Pasadena Children’s School began in Pasadena, California in 1945. It was started by six local families as a children’s school, which believed that each individual possessed an inner light worth nurturing. It later became a teacher training institution founded on Quaker values of community, equality, and peace, which would offer a progressive education that would help the world heal. Pacific Oaks College was established in 1958. The mission of the college is to train future professionals to be of service and positively impact their communities, to help, and not harm them. Presently, the college is focused on building competent professionals who are culturally aware, respectful of the communities they serve, open and willing advocates focused on justice, fairness, and prepared to advance or lead in their profession.

Rebecca: Our institution has a somewhat similar history in that it started off as a teacher prep institution as well. That’s kind of fun to hear a related story. Can you talk a little bit about the student population at Pacific Oaks?

Camille: So we have a majority is online. 80% of our school is online right now. So we have a combination of asynchronous, synchronous courses. We still have some on the ground students, because we transitioned from on the ground to online during the pandemic. So around 2022, 2023 it became that perhaps this works better, because our students were more interested in doing online courses than on the ground courses. Our typical student body… we are a Hispanic-serving institution…. are Latino middle-aged women in their 30s to 40s. They are working, they have children, they’re married. So sometimes English is not their first language. They have maybe went to school. If they went to our bachelor’s program, they may have had some remedial courses or whatever. But if they are in our master’s degree courses, which is a lot of our courses, they would have gone to college, but they’ve maybe had a gap between bachelor’s and master’s about eight to 10 years. So the academic acumen is the issue when they first get to school. So we have to spend a lot of time really trying to hone in on their learning abilities and basically help them get themselves to match what the rigor of the program is. But yeah, we love these kind of women. They are in the trenches. They are not into lofty ideas. They’re into really learning the skill sets that they are basically trying to gain because of our programming, which is marriage and family therapy and social work and education. It’s a very professions-based kind of school, so they spend a lot of time really getting skill sets, being practical. They’re very practical in understanding what they need to know, and we really help them with their skill sets.

John: In November of 2022, ChatGPT appeared right before finals at the end of the fall semester, and it resulted in some fairly significant effects on higher ed, how did faculty at your institution respond?

Yolanda: Some instructors embraced ChatGPT initially quite readily, and others even used AI apps for assignments to enhance them. Other faculty were hesitant and wanted more information. P.O. is a smaller higher ed institution, and with that being said, we have the ability to be nimble and to add changes to our assignments as needed and to keep up with best practices. P.O. is part of The Community Solution (the TCS) system. It’s a centralized infrastructure and culture that supports six higher ed education institutions. In the spring of 2023, TCS provided a conference space for our system faculty to showcase AI, living out the mission of embracing a culture of learning. So faculty across the institutions presented and all worked collaboratively in experiencing AI in a variety of modalities at our central location in Chicago.

Camille: So I think, how did we embrace it Is that, for the students, we kind of looked at it as a plagiarism kind of situation… so punitive, this is going to stop them from learning blah, blah, blah. And as we got into the AI Institute for the AACU we discovered that this can really help the students. We said our student body is first-generation women, mostly Spanish-speaking, different languages, and so forth. So AI can help them with writing. AI can help them getting their thoughts in order. A lot of times, these students ask, “How do you want this assignment to go? How do you want this assignment to look?” And I thought, AI can help them in that avenue as well. The more you saw a lot of these applications come in ChatGPT starts it off, but then you got Deep Seek, you got Claude. You have a lot of different platforms. You realize that this can really be used to help them educationally. So for us, as faculty, we maybe have been using it secretly. I started using it just to do emails, you know, “write this nicer, put my thoughts and write it nicer,” but we started to not look at it as a negative, but this can be the mechanism of the future. It’s like autocorrect. I can barely spell, but autocorrect makes me look as though I’m passing national spelling bees.

Orlando: I’m relatively new to the institution, so I wasn’t around in 2022, I was working at a different institution, but right away, I was invited to join the AI committee at our school, and I found it very interesting the tools that were available that I was completely unaware of, and just to see how there’s certain programs and GPTs where they can serve as a tutorial and be of service to students, faculty, it’s just amazing. I’m very much looking forward to what the future holds.

Rebecca: So you’ve kind of given us a little bit of a base for how folks were initially responding to AI. Can you talk a little bit about ways that faculty are now using AI to support the educational mission, whether that’s in curriculum or educational activities or other uses?

Yolanda: Recently, I’ve been focused on the basic logistics in application of AI, student use to complete assignments or to create assignments. And so, for example, there is in one class a poem they have to develop. And with that, I used an AI tool for them to download, a free use, to put in their poem, and this AI app creates a video with music, with words and with pictures, and it brings to life their poem. And the students were really excited about that. It really helped to bring that assignment to the next level and then at the institutional level, our Pacific Oaks college AI team has been working on developing the institutional policy for AI usage, for students, faculty, and our community, for example, we believe that it’s important for students to submit their assignments and documents in a format that can be screened for AI usage by the systems that are made available to faculties for screening Word documents. For example, we use Turnitin. We want students to be able to generate and create their own content and use AI as a support for developing ideas, not writing their papers for them. So as an institution, we’ve been engaged in critical discussions and in planning around the use of AI in the classroom, and then also distinguishing the human element, or the connection, versus automated AI machinery, tools, and apps. We encourage the using of AI for brainstorming, creating ideas. This should always be followed by student-created content, rather than the use of AI tools and prompting to create or develop assignments.

Camille: To add to that, I’m the chair of the Faculty Council for our college. On a macro level, we basically engaged in a lot of conversations. We’ve had a lot of staff meetings with the adjunct faculty as well as regular faculty, about AI and how to engage with it for ourselves, as well as for our students. Another thing we did was, as Yolanda said, we are part of a larger system of six universities, we invited the larger system to come in and do a two-day training on UDL (universal design for learning) and then AI. And we’ve been looking at making collaborative initiatives between the UDL and the AI systems to basically incorporate it in our classes as well. Another thing we’re doing is working on a policy, it’s a working policy, as Yolanda situated, but also we have not really introduced it to our students. So that’s our next part of our journey is basically how to appropriately engage students and basically give them a demonstration. I think students really benefit from a demonstration. They definitely, when in online schools, they really benefit from one one-on-one personal interaction via Zoom. They really like it. So that’s what we’ve been working on as well.

Orlando: Just to add to that, in advising doctoral research students, some of my students are using AI platforms to organize their sources. They can engage in mind mapping, and I think it’s a helpful tool for the literature search, even though I don’t think it’s a good idea for them to fully rely on that. I think a good mixture of human capacity versus AI platforms and tools to complement each other are important.

John: Let’s go back to the use of AI to support UDL. Could you talk a little bit more about how AI tools are being used to support a universal design for learning approach in the course?

Camille: So UDL has a lot of different facets to it, audio, visual. What I’ve really been looking at is the growth mindset piece, because what we’ve noticed with some of our students, I’ve been doing some one one-on-one. We’re gearing up to do focus groups with them. We got a small grant to basically implement UDL in the entire college. And so what I noticed with our particular students is that they don’t want to necessarily identify as having a learning disability. That’s just not their thing. But what they talked about, in a very roundabout way, was the lack of confidence, the lack of really being scared to look for assistance. So I was thinking that we need to implement a growth mindset kind of component into our teaching modes, as well as, and AI can help with that, because it can help give you courage to ask questions. You can ask AI to look at how we can integrate: “I’m having difficulty understanding this assignment, I’m having difficulty understanding this article. Can you break it down for me so that you can make more sense?” So integrating an AI component with the UDL will help enhance their learning abilities. So that’s what we’ve been kind of structuring. And I heard from the students that they really were having issues with just self confidence, which makes a lot of sense based on the fact that they haven’t been in school in years, and everything is just moving at lightning space as far as learning acumen. So that is one way.

John: One of the things you mentioned earlier was that students come in with fairly differentiated backgrounds in terms of their prior knowledge, and they have to get up to speed. Have they been using AI to help fill some of the gaps they may have had in their prior learning experiences.

Camille: I’ve noticed it in their assignments, yes, but what I’m learning is also they just put in the assignment, but they don’t put in the reading material. So the assignments come across very superficial and not necessarily depth of critical thinking or any kind of reflection of the reading. So the AI won’t even put in references in it, so the references won’t match what’s in the coursework. So getting them to not use it in the underhanded way… You’re using AI, I have no problem with you using it, but it has to be used to assist you, not do the work for you, and that has been the bridge that we’re trying to cross.

Rebecca: You mentioned the large percentage of your coursework being online, and I know that faculty, in a lot of our conversations around AI, have been really concerned about using AI in online environments, because it’s a little bit harder to distinguish the human from machine-generated. Can you talk a little bit more about ways that you’re helping students move in the direction of the assisting and not doing it for them, so where it’s not an academic integrity issue?

Yolanda: So, what I’ve been using is what’s called the AI sandwich. I’ve been working with students to help them understand how they can use AI like, for example, if they have a topic, but it’s really broad, to helping them brainstorm using AI to narrow down their topic or to develop ideas for topics, and to help them to create and understand how to develop a good, concise thesis statement for their topic. And then, with that being said, the next step is how to gather their data, so using AI to create questions for interviews, for surveys, and then methods for data collection for their action research project. But with that being said, then I go into the humanization of AI, and I shift the focus to our model for P.O. It’s the head, heart, and hands model. I talk to them about, when we’re completing assignments, it’s not just to complete the assignment, but it’s to gain that knowledge, not just to regurgitate it, but to have that passion, because then it’s in the heart. So it’s the knowledge in the head, the passion in the heart, then our practices, our hands, that comes forth in our practices, and that sets us apart from others, and that’s something that AI cannot do for us. That’s something that we as the human, that’s how we humanize the use of AI, but the human-to-human, I talk to them about how AI has helped you generate these questions, these surveys, but you’re going to be conducting these interviews, you’re going to be writing the anecdotal records. You’re going to be taking the raw notes and submitting those, perhaps maybe taking voice recordings or video, but then we can take AI to help organize those for them, so that then they can maybe create their outline, and then they can submit their papers. How I do it is they submit it in chunks, and then I review and we’re in revision state, and I provide feedback. The feedback I provide is using a tool called VoiceThread where I provide specific assignment feedback using what’s called VoiceThreads, where they can see me, they can hear me, and if they need to, they can also see the wording as well. So it touches upon all learning modalities.

John: I have used VoiceThread in the past, and I’ve really enjoyed it. I had to drop it because my classes were large, and just listening to all the audio responses took far too many hours.

Camille: I know Orlando, you did some AI stuff. You’ve been doing it in your doctoral program.

Orlando: Yes, just thinking about most of the students that I teach are at the doctoral level, and most of them are engaging in doctoral research. So if you consider that traditional approaches versus futuristic or current approaches, most of the material that students are engaging in at that level is meant to be challenging. They need to learn research and it’s important to learn statistics and different methodologies. So I’m super open to new tools that they can use, but it’s difficult to substitute AI tools with general educational tasks that are meant to help students advance and to gain a wealth of skills. But some of the newer tools that I’m becoming aware of, and that I’ve noticed could be helpful as a tutorial for statistics and for research methods, even research design. There’s one called Julius AI, where you could drop your data in there and it can spit out a result. If it doesn’t spit out the right prompt for you, you can re-prompt it until it gives you what you want. I’ve tried it with simple data that I’ve had, running a correlation. It gives you everything you need. So I mean, if students are struggling with conceptualization or just to have the right terminology, because it is important to verbalize your research in a way that’s accurate and specific. So I think the AI tools could truly help for that, as well as general organizational tools. NVivo is another research tool that students are using. I’ve used it in the past as well. It is fueled by machine learning now, so creating those hand-coded or manual themes that was done in the past is probably going to fall a little bit by the wayside, but I still think there’s some value for students to learn the traditional way and to mind the author’s recommendations from grounded theory and from phenomenology. I think there’s some real value in that, and they could really showcase the ideas that they have. My exposure to AI is relatively new, and it started when I began teaching here at Pacific Oaks and I joined the AI committee. My doctoral program is very new. This is an inaugural class, and previous development of the doctoral research manual included a passage for plagiarism, to guard against plagiarism. After reading some material, particularly AI for Teachers, by Jose Antonio Bowen. I noticed the finding in there that faculty generally do not do well recognizing AI passages versus AI itself. So I thought this is something that I need to step up, and it has to do with academic integrity. So I wrote a follow-up passage to that where students’ work will be detected for AI passages. It doesn’t say how many passages or the percentage, but I think it’s going to be important for students to understand that they can’t just copy and paste their whole doctoral dissertation and that be acceptable, and there has to be some systems in place to guard against that.

Rebecca: So you’ve mentioned using Turnitin and tools like that to detect AI. Can you talk a little bit about ways that you’re managing false accusations or false positives on AI use?

Camille: So I don’t really trust Turnitin. Let me just put it out there as a misnomer. I feel as though sometimes they see as plagiarism, and when I actually look at the paperwork, it’s like they use the same word the 10 million times and it’s been picked up. So I don’t know if I don’t trust Turnitin or I don’t know how to use it properly. We put it out there like that, and so I don’t really rely on it as much, especially for those who English is not their first language. What I’m looking for is execution of how they write. When I did my PhD, I wished there was a ChatGPT back then, I had to hire an editor who was from another country, and that scared me. I was like, I’m paying you, and I was born in America and speak English, and I’m paying you… she was like from Ukraine or Russia… to edit my paperwork. So because of that, I had to learn how to write. Something about that was not sitting well with me. So I had to learn how to write. And I felt as though ChatGPT and one of these things can help you to learn how to write. In Spanish, the adjective comes after the actual noun, whereas in English, it comes before. And so I thought that this would help them. If, in fact, they can learn how to write, I can overlook plagiarism. What I can’t overlook is them not using the readings and the learning resources that I provide for them. I grade on how they write, and that’s really good, but I also grade on use of learning resources, and I think that that was more important to me than the other thing. Another thing is a lot of them don’t know how to use it properly, so they don’t even see the attachment upload document to put in their articles. So that tells you that maybe sometimes they’re just cutting and pastes. And if you’ve never noticed in ChatGPT, they’ll say the same thing different ways, and it’s up to you to pick up on which way to say it. So me catching them there has been very helpful. Orlando’s correct. Sometimes you can’t tell, but then that’s good, because then you’re learning how it’s supposed to be written in the first place, and then ChatGPT also has a lot of spaces in between, so I’m teaching them not to cut and paste. I want to teach them how to use it in a sense that it can craft a paragraph for you, as opposed to you just cutting and pasting. So catching them in that area has been helpful to me. But again, I will say I don’t know much about Turnitin. I don’t trust your plagiarism readability. So I go in that direction.

Yolanda: I agree Camille. They also have a disclaimer in there, so it kind of is a little bit on the nebulous side. And typically, when I go in and I look, because I think that’s a humanization of anything that we’re going to be using, it still requires us to take that step, to go in, to look at, and to make sense of the meaning of what has been submitted. And then I agree with you. We’re looking for content. Do they really understand this content, and can they apply what they’ve learned? Are they applying this in a real case scenario. But when I’m looking at Turnitin, it flags references, and that tends to be the large chunk of it. When I can see that it’s flagged references. And I’m looking to see, are they in seventh APA edition? Yeah, they are. It’s flagging them because they have submitted this in the revision before this. And so those are things to keep in mind as well. Nothing’s perfect, but it’s learning how to use the tools that we do have available to us that’s important.

John: So you’ve all talked a little bit about how students are using AI, and Camille mentioned how she’s used it to help shape emails. Are many faculty using AI to help develop curriculum, to help develop learning activities, to create various scenarios or other ways in supporting their instruction.

Camille: It has really helped me, and I think other people are doing it too. I’m in the social work department. My other faculty have not caught on as much as I have, but it really helps me with case studies, because my classes are more applied. It helped me develop case studies that make sense. They have better characterizations, like they’ll sit there and say, identify mental health symptoms and then identify environmental stressors. And I was like, “Yeah, I never thought about creating it in that way.” So I think that has been very helpful. It has helped me create quizzes, exams in a lot of ways. So I’m in love. I’ve subscribed to ChatGPT as well as Claude. I’ve been trying out Deep Seek and you know, the platforms can go on and on and on. We were just told that there’s an AI for curriculum development that’s specific for lesson plans and so forth. So I’m going to look into that as well if there’s a free trial. So I’m into it big time, my colleagues, not quite yet, I don’t think. And I’m also a writer, so it helps me with contextualizing ideas and in figuring out what’s out there right now, and so I can look at different articles. I think Deep Seek is pretty good when it comes to accuracy and references, because I check it constantly against what’s in there and what’s outside. But I love it, and I think this AI Institute really opened my eyes to the vast applications that are out there that I think we all should know and not get overwhelmed by. It’s like Bitcoin. You don’t know what’s going on, but I’m really excited about it.

Orlando: Yeah, for myself, I tend to use Copilot. I think it’s helpful, since it’s kind of integrated into the browser that I use, and it’s helpful to summarize long passages, to bullet point them. But also, as a writer, I use it if I’m struggling to find a source. I’ll just drop a prompt in there, and it’ll help me to generate a few more sources that I wasn’t aware of. But at first I was a little resistant. I was just unaware of how it worked and how it operates. But I’m starting to learn more and more, and I do still have a concern about privacy, so I won’t drop students’ whole papers in there, just because it’s not my work. It’s something that I’m not in charge of, and is not my property. So I’d rather just kind of use it in a broader sense, just to kind of quicken my pace in the work that I do.

Camille: I just want to put it that a student told me about ChatGPT. That’s how I first learned about this whole thing in the first place. And I always say I talk to young people because they know and keeping up with them. I’m 53 and I officially have no idea what’s hot anymore, what’s happening. I’ll have to admit it, but this student was like, “Why aren’t you using ChatGPT?” and I’m like, “What are you talking about?” And when it came I was like, “Whoa, this is just next place to go.” So I’m open to it, because the young people know about it, and I’m glad that they have it, because it makes life easier. But you have to know how to prompt. I think that was the biggest thing. Learning how to prompt it and yield it to what you need is what been the biggest challenge.

Yolanda: For me, I have mainly used the app. So initially I discussed how I used one for a poem, and it was Lumen5. It’s an animated avatar video program that they download for free, and they’re able to create this beautiful video with the poem that they developed and they created. What’s really cool about it is that they get excited about an assignment that before was just something that they just went through and they just jumped through the hoops. Well, now with that Lumen5, it’s just kind of has brought things to the next level, and I also use ITSE standards for educators. It’s how to use AI and AI tools for educational purposes. So that’s something that I do and use, and I’m stretching and finding new apps at different times, and then having students go in. I use it as kind of like a pilot program. I’ll pull it in, and I’ll say, “Well, this time, we’re going to use this.” And I’ll say, “it’s not mandatory. Those that you want to use it can use it. Those that don’t want to use it can use the regular standard assignment.” And it’s amazing to see that the majority of them choose to use the AI tool.

Camille: It also creates flyers, if you do that. And it has helped me with ethics applications. So, yeah, it’s a part of my life. It’s on all my laptops [LAUGHTER] and my computers. It’s kind of embarrassing now, but people say, “Oh, you’re leaning on it too much. And if you lean on it too much, it becomes they take over your ability.” But I’m directing this. I’m still involved. I’m the creative director of what I will use and what I won’t use, and I’m still a part of the equation. They haven’t taken me over, have they?. This is the kind of philosophical questions you ask yourself.

Yolanda: Amen, that’s the humanization of AI.

Rebecca: I think one of the things that I’ve heard you all talk about today is that the AI Institute gave you some concentrated time to practice and explore and learn, and kind of set that time aside so that you had the time to do that. I think often it’s one of those add-ons, like in my free time that none of us have, that we might explore these things. So it seems like that dedicated time was a really valuable and important investment for each of you to really integrate it into your work.

Camille: Yeah, we had a staff meeting because, you know, again, our Senior Vice-President of Academic Affairs, he’s really interested in it to kind of go, how can it be used for our professional use? And I remember my colleague and I, we created a case note: “How to Write a Case Note through AI.” And I think that just was, like, blown away. The other faculty were like, “Wow.” If you know anything about social work, you could write it as a SOAP note, which is a subjective objective assessment plan. You can use it as a DAP note, which is a diagnostic assessment plan. So we used it as a demonstration about all the different ways you can write case notes. Now there are AI systems to help with case notes in social work agencies which Is like: you put the paperwork in, put the information in, and they will create yourself an intervention plan. So I think that’s the good thing about Pacific Oaks College, because we’re such a profession-based kind of college, you’re teaching Marriage and Family Therapy. It’s one of the biggest marriage and family therapy schools on the West Coast. And then social work we just got basically a couple of years ago, using AI to help with you as a professional, I think has been great. So doing it with the teachers was the first thing, faculty, and now we’re going to try to see if we can do it with the students.

John: So you all participated in the institute. What proportion of the faculty participated in the institute? And do you still have some faculty who are resistant to trying AI?

Camille: For the Institute, it was seven of us. Three of us showed up today, but the seven of us. One, the Dea,n has moved on to another position, but everyone else has maintained. has stayed. More and more people are interested because of the fact that we’ve been doing staff meetings. And I was very surprised, because when I set up the TCS, which is the system-wide AI and UDL classes, it was like three hours of their time Monday and Tuesday, and everyone showed up. Everyone showed up. Everyone’s interested. And every time we do it, they’re like, “Wow.” Every time you see in the chat, “This is mind blowing.” So I think they’re interested. But we haven’t done anything formal to basically quantify how interested they’ve been and how involved they’ve been, but we’ve shown to them, AI is here to stay, it is valuable, and it can be used by anyone.

Yolanda: I believe we have developed a survey tool that we’re going to be sending out to faculty. So that’s something that we’re going to be looking at, gathering the data of their familiarity with the use of AI. And then I think we’re going to do a pre- and then a post-, and then we’ll probably then follow up on that, because that will denote the need.

Orlando: I think, as well, at other larger institutions, that have decided on a specific platform to use, as far as AI, and how to integrate that into the school’s existing tools. We’re still in the process of deciding about that. I know some of the schools, they use a paid version of ChatGPT or CoPilot. We’re still in the phase of selecting the best platform, but I know there’s some good options out there, and I think it really will add to and cause us to progress in our programming.

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking: what’s next?

Yolanda: So preparing for the unknown. What I would say, first is we need to focus on relationships, the ability to connect with others, so that they can collaborate and work in teams together, because this is the 21st century workforce need. Second is helping our students with resiliency, I also like to call it flexibility, because the one thing that is constant in life is change. That’s the one thing that we can depend on, is change. And resiliency is the ability to push through obstacles and to have the confidence to act on the new knowledge that they have to create the change they want to see in the world. And then lastly, this is a P.O. core value is reflection. All of our assignments generally have a reflection piece that’s weaved in there for them to reflect upon. So I always tell them it’s important to stay humble enough to reflect upon changes that need to be made, and then the courage to act on the next steps that need to take place.

Camille: What’s next? Institutionally speaking, what I like is the fact, though we are a part of a system which is TCS and the six universities, the wisdom of the President was that he didn’t want a uniform AI platform for each school. He thought that we have a law school, we have a medical school, they’re going to need different kind of AI platforms than us. So we have been given the authority to autonomously pick our own AI platform that will work best for our particular students. We are keeping our students heavily in mind. We want to make sure that AI is used ethically and with integrity, but while being helpful to them. So we’re rolling out a policy that’s going to help them in that sort of way. We are also redoing our plagiarism handbook and basically incorporating AI and making sure that that kind of meets and it’s more seamless. We are definitely trying to pick a platform that kind of works for education, marriage and family, and social work, three different distinct professions, but yet very similar in a lot of ways. We’re also working on an AI manual, to some degree, to basically figure out how all the different components that come with AI, rethinking it and reshaping it. We have not done a review of our faculty manual in about 10 years, so that’s also being incorporated. We’re in the midst of change at Pacific Oaks, so AI came perfectly so they can be instituted in our paperwork and our regulations.

Orlando: As an institution, I think we’ll continue to serve as possibly thought leaders for the topic of AI. A lot of us are integrating it into our work, and I can see that continuing in the future. I think we all have a great idea about responsible use of AI, and I think that will definitely continue. Personally, I’m working on writing another book chapter. Most of my materials have been on doctoral researchers. So this new chapter is about doctoral research agency, where it’s based on a lot of material I’ve been looking into. Part of that should be focused on helping students to adapt and prepare for the future. As Yolanda noted, I think the skills of adaptation and integration are important, and AI could definitely help with that process. And yes, overall, just using AI to help prepare students for the future, whether it’s in the job market or for personal enhancement. I think that’s all important, and we could definitely motivate students in that way and help them to navigate that process.

Rebecca: Well, thanks for joining us. It’s nice to have a little case study of how a particular institution is working through AI.

John: And this is an issue that all campuses are facing. So it’s great to hear how you’ve been addressing it. Thank you.

Yolanda: Thank you for having us.

Orlando: Thank you.

Camille: Thank you so much. I hope that we were informative. We’re trying to move to cutting edge while keeping our tradition and our principles.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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373. Cross-Institutional Peer Observation

Peer observation and peer feedback can be useful resources for faculty professional development. In this episode, Anna Logan, Ann Marie Farrell, and Martina Crehan join us to discuss a cross-institutional, cross-disciplinary peer observation process. Anna is an Associate Professor in the School of Inclusive and Special Education and the former Dean of Teaching and Learning at the Institute of Education, Dublin City University. Ann Marie is an Assistant Professor, also in the School of Inclusive and Special Education at Dublin City University. Martina is Head of Teaching Enhancement Unit at Dublin City University. She has over 20 years experience in professional development and as a curriculum innovator.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Peer observation and peer feedback can be useful resources for faculty professional development. In this episode, we examine a cross-institutional, cross-disciplinary peer observation process.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guests today are Anna Logan, Ann Marie Farrell, and Martina Crehan. Anna is an Associate Professor in the School of Inclusive and Special Education and the former Dean of Teaching and Learning at the Institute of Education, Dublin City University. Ann Marie is an Assistant Professor, also in the School of Inclusive and Special Education at Dublin City University. Martina is Head of Teaching Enhancement Unit at Dublin City University. She has over 20 years experience in professional development and as a curriculum innovator. Welcome back, Anna and Ann Marie and welcome Martina.

Ann Marie: Hi. Thanks for having us back.

John: It’s good to see you again. Today’s teas are:… Anna, what tea do you have today?

Anna: Today I am having a very traditional Barry’s Red Label tea. Barry’s is a very famous Irish tea from County Cork. So I’m having that.

John: And Ann Marie?

Ann Marie: I am having an earl grey tea today. That’s actually my favorite tea. So that’s what I’m having this afternoon.

John: And Martina?

Martina: So I’ve gone a little bit more exotic with a rooibos tea. So it makes me think of beautiful warm blue skies. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: And I have an English afternoon today,

John: And I have… something I missed out last time… an Irish breakfast tea today, I would have had Barry’s if I was able to get back to the office this morning, but it’s a Twinings, but at least it’s Irish breakfast this time. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: at least the right part of the world, John. So we’ve invited you here today to discuss your joint work in setting up a cross-institutional process of peer observation of teaching. Can you tell us a little bit about the origins of this project?

Martina: Thanks, Rebecca. So this project was a collaboration between three Irish universities, Dublin City University, Maynooth University and RCSI, and our story began, hard to believe now, actually, as far back as 2017 and it started with a conversation between myself and two colleagues who worked as faculty developers in three institutions. Have to mention my co-conspirators here, Muireann O’Keeffe and Morag Munro, and we’d all been involved in peer observation of teaching work in one form or another in our respective institutions. We were very aware of how valuable a tool it could be in scaffolding professional dialog and reflection and practice, and we became very interested in the potential for cross-institutional and cross-disciplinary peer observation. A lot of the literature at the time was very focused on peer observation of teaching in a single institution, but we were coming across more and more publications which really focused on the power of cross-disciplinary and cross-institutional. We were really lucky to have some funding at the time that was available via a partnership between the three institutions. So we initiated a pilot scheme. We focused it on large-group teaching as the common focus for the participants, and designed a process where we supported the participants with an induction. We also supported them in terms of the observation process itself, reflection, professional conversations and so on. And we sought volunteers, and were really lucky to be joined by, I think, 10 volunteers across the three institutions from a range of different backgrounds, two of whom were Ann Marie and Anna, and I think they might want to speak about their motivations for joining us.

Ann Marie: Well, from my perspective, I was just very interested immediately by the idea of having an opportunity to work with somebody outside of DCU, outside of my own university. And my background is teaching. I was originally a primary school teacher, and so that’s my background. And since I’ve been working in higher education, I’ve been really interested in the pedagogical aspect of my work. So when the invitation went out, it just seemed like something that was really interesting to me, and it fitted in with some of the work I was already doing. So that’s what motivated me to join up.

Anna: And I love teaching. And of course, this was something that was focused on teaching. I think Martina might have mentioned that it was focused on large-class teaching, which was something that I was really interested in. So that was another motivating factor. When I read a little bit about it, or was approached, the structure and the opportunity to engage in reflection on my teaching, particularly the teaching in a large class, was really useful. I am very committed to improving my teaching all the time, and I really was motivated by the opportunity that I could identify aspects of my teaching that I had a hunch weren’t great, that I was a little bit concerned about my pacing, for example, and so I knew this would give me potentially a good opportunity to get feedback on that and develop my skills in terms of teaching those large classes.

John: When we do peer evaluation of teaching on our campus, it could be for formative purposes, but it’s often more for summative evaluation, which is perhaps not the most useful form of peer observation, and I really like the idea of having people from other institutions observe teaching, because it takes away any possibility of that type of summative evaluation. Have people appreciated that aspect, that they’re getting reactions from people outside their campus who will not be involved, even indirectly, in evaluating their teaching for retention or other purposes.

Ann Marie: From my perspective as a participant in the cross-institutional peer observation of teaching project, it was absolutely fantastic to have somebody coming from a completely different context who didn’t know one single thing about the culture and the ideas and the way we do things, even generally as an institution, never mind specifically, in my classroom. And I was paired up with a guy who was teaching a completely different subject area and he was doing something around digital media and literacy for trainee doctors at RCSI, the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, so it’s a medical university in its entirety. So he was coming from a completely different perspective, and even when we visited each other’s institutions, that was really useful. Like one of his comments is, a lot of my students are all student teachers, they’re all resident in Ireland, most of them go home at the weekends, whereas his students were mostly International, maybe went home once a year. So he was very struck. He came in to see me on a Friday morning, and there were about 40 suitcases lined up at the door as the students were coming to my session, and then were running for buses to go home. And he was struck by that, and even just the profile of the class. So what’s really useful about that kind of cross-institutional thing is that you see your own students, your own organization, in a much broader context. And I think that does influence how you view Teaching and Learning then as well.

Anna: And I absolutely agree with Ann Marie’s observations in relation to that. I also think that the cross-disciplinary nature that Ann Marie has highlighted was really very, very important. And coming back to your observation, John, that this really wasn’t about summative assessment, this was about mentoring and peer support and mutual peer support. I was paired with somebody from a business background, so I was visiting and observing in a large undergraduate business classroom. And it struck me at the time that I was authentically a learner in that place. There wasn’t a competition. I wasn’t going in with my lens as a teacher educator with a particular interest in inclusive and special education. So it was, I suppose, in a way, less competitive. And maybe this wasn’t a conscious thing, it wasn’t, “how do they do it in this institution?” Because it was an entirely different discipline. It meant I was an authentic learner about leadership and management education, and hopefully, I think my peer was equally a learner in my classroom about inclusive education. So I think it was both the cross-institutional and the cross-disciplinary which really supported that mutual peer support aspect, rather than somebody coming in in an evaluative summative role. It wasn’t designed as such, and it didn’t slip into that space because we were in different disciplines and in different institutions.

Martina: I think generally as well, just to add to that, John, in Ireland, in higher education, probably for the most part, we’re quite lucky where peer observation of teaching in most institutions has maintained that very formative developmental aspect. It’s actually very rarely used here in that much more summative, evaluative way. So I think we’re very lucky from that perspective. But as I was listening to Anna and Ann Marie speaking there, I’m not sure if somebody used this phrase in some of the research that we’ve conducted on this, but I remember somebody talking about the cross-institutional and the cross-disciplinary piece allowed you to tune into a different frequency of teaching and learning. And I thought that was just a lovely way of summarizing all of that which kind of resonated with me and has stayed with me, I have to say.

Rebecca: One of the things that I heard you both speaking about is being a non-expert in a classroom on the subject matter, which helps you be in the classroom as a learner, and probably helps you give really different feedback on the teaching of your peer, in a different way than if you are an expert on the subject matter, which I find to be really interesting and really helpful. And I know that when I’ve had the opportunity to be in other classrooms of different disciplines, have found to be one of the most exciting and rich experiences as an observer is to be in those really different disciplines: (A) because it’s really interesting to learn something new, [LAUGHTER] but (B) because the methodologies are often really different and give you some really interesting and new ideas. I’m interested to hear a little bit more about some of the logistics of how this process was put in place, because you’re talking a little bit about visiting the different institutions and coordinating three different organizations, and that sounds like a really complex situation to put together. Can you talk a little bit about what that was like for both the organizers as well as the participants.

Martina: So, I think we were very lucky in that, from my perspective, from an organizational point of view, I had a colleague in each of the other institutions who was as enthusiastic and as motivated in this. So from a logistical perspective, we kind of shared the organization, and we shared the locations for some of the induction workshops and some of the conversations that we needed to have with the participants, which Anna and Ann Marie will be able to talk to you about from their perspective and as a participant. We took the responsibility of matching the individuals, so that made it, I think, a little bit easier for the participants, and then it was really up to them to organize: When will I visit? What day? What time? How will that work out? So we left that in the hands of the participants so that they could make their own decisions, and hopefully that made it a little bit easier for them. So I think from the organization point of view, the logistics were possibly maybe a little bit easier than for the participants.

Ann Marie: Well, from a participant’s perspective, I just found it was really well structured. So we had like a planning or a support day with Martina, Muireann, and Morag at the beginning of the process, where they went through models of reflective practice. They went through principles of the type of feedback, or considerations we as participants needed to take into consideration when we were working with our partner, like, for example, establishing ground rules with your partner in terms of what the nature of the feedback, maybe what you would request as feedback that the person being observed might ask for particular feedback and so on. So it was just really well supported from the outset, and then when Martina then sent us off in our pairs, I linked in with my partner, and we had at least one, if not two, phone conversations, and that was to agree when we were going to meet, who was going to go where and when, basic things, like giving directions, all of that sort of thing. And then when we met, we gave each other a tour of each other’s University. And that was really interesting, and it broke the ice. It was a lovely kind of, I suppose, relationship-building thing, like we spent a little time in both institutions before we did the feedback or the observation or whatever. And in our case, the chap I was paired with came and observed two of my classes. He asked could he come and see a second one? And I said, “Yes,” I was delighted. His classes were mainly completed at that point in the semester, but he had recorded them, so I watched one of his recordings, and then we sat down in terms of feedback. And it was interesting, because I was far more nervous about giving feedback than I was about receiving it, because I am a teacher educator. I go out to schools all the time. I’m constantly giving feedback on teaching, and that’s a very particular context in terms of going out to one of our students who’s doing a course. But this was different. So I didn’t want to become the teacher educator. I wanted it to be equal. So I was quite nervous actually about giving the feedback. But the whole process of the actual observations and the feedback was just so collegial. It was eye opening, like he saw things that he could only see because he was sitting at the top of the room, and I do walk around when I’m in a tiered lecture theater. I walk around, but I cannot sit down at the back for 30 minutes or an hour and watch, whereas he did, and he had very interesting things to say about what students were doing while class was going on. So that actual process of the two of us working together, I just found it really, really, really useful. So that was my main takeaway around that.

Anna: My experience was different. You asked about the process, John, so just talking about the process, my experience of the process was slightly different. Yes, there was that initial face-to-face workshop, which was really useful. But there was a flexibility in this. Even though it was structured, there was quite a lot of flexibility. Martina said, after that first day, it was really handed over to us in our pairs to work it out. And I think one of the things that was great about it was the flexibility, because we had to be quite flexible, my partner and I, for a number of reasons. First of all, my partner hadn’t been able to come to that initial first day, so Ann Marie mentioned the kind of the building and the breaking the ice. So actually, we had to do that. I was on Skype at the time, because this was before COVID and I certainly wasn’t comfortable in Skype. I’d never used it before, so there was quite a lot there, but we had a long conversation and a long getting to know you chat on Skype, which did help us to break that barrier. Now again, Ann Marie, you mentioned the logistics of when this would happen in the academic year, when it would happen in the semester. So there were constraints to do with that which are to do with when a module started, when it ended. So I was very fortunate in that my partner was still teaching at that time, so I could get out and go to her university. Again, we built in time to have a chat, as Ann Marie had said, while we had to do it on Skype again, we were very clear about what we wanted feedback on, and I would totally relate to Ann Marie’s observation. I’m really used to giving feedback. I was very much conscious of stepping away from that. And again, it was a different discipline and so on. So I went out to and I observed the lecture live in a large lecture theater, and we had our feedback session after that, but it was a bit different for me, because my teaching in that particular module was in blocks, and it just didn’t suit my partner to come out. But again, as Ann Marie said, we could record. So I recorded the session and shared the recording with my partner, and then we came together again online and had our conversation. So the flexibility was great in terms of the process, and that structure at the beginning, clear guidelines, ground rules, all that sort of thing. Then flexibility was really important. Because if it had had to be you have to see a face-to-face lecture, or it has to happen within a certain period of time, there was that flexibility which made it very achievable too, I think, for us

John: Now, you’ve already addressed some of this in terms of your responses, Anna and Ann Marie, but have you heard any other responses from faculty in terms of the general reaction to this process? Has it been popular? Have people been anxious or concerned about it? How have faculty, more broadly, responded to this.

Martina: I can address this to some extent from the perspective of the pilot project, and then maybe other forms of peer observation within single institutions which I’ve been involved in. And I think for many people, particularly when they start on this process, it’s a mixture of fear trepidation, a sense of the unknown. What am I signing up to? What am I jumping into? Because realistically, you know, for most of us in any teaching context, we go into our lecture theater, our classroom, our lab, and we close the door. It’s us and the students. So that concept of having somebody sit at the back of the classroom or the front of the classroom and observe us is challenging, and I think particularly in an Irish context, it puts us in mind of the cigire, which is our Irish word for inspector, who might come in, particularly if we’re in teacher training as primary level or second level, will come in and assess us in that more evaluative way. So it is certainly daunting for people at the start, so the structures and the supports that we put around it are really, really key in that. And one of the things that participants usually respond to quite well is that sense of support, the fact that it is developmental, that it is not something that is evaluative, that judgments are being made on, and the fact that there is a reciprocity. So if I’m paired with Anna, then she will come into my classroom, I’ll go into her classroom. And the philosophy is really centered around a conversation about our teaching and learning practice. And I think once people have experienced that for the first time and get that sense of the philosophy and the ethos, it really kind of helps that progression, and it helps that sense of comfort and that sense of familiarity. So for the most part, I mean, there are people, I think, who probably feel a little bit more challenged about it for a longer period of time, but I think having those supports in place are really, really key to ensuring that participants engage in this in a productive and a positive way and see it as something that helps their practice and is going to develop their practice.

Ann Marie: And I suppose, from my perspective, since engaging in that pilot project, I’ve invited a lot of people into my class for a variety of reasons, and sometimes not about the teaching and learning piece, but more about the content. So I’ve invited staff in if they so wished, if we’ve guest speakers, or if I’m in doing a session on special and inclusive education, other teacher educators who might be interested. And sometimes we do have some other members of faculty who come in and join for some of those and that’s not quite the same thing, but I would be much more confident in doing that now, and I also think it is really important for very new members of staff. I think for the most part, new lecturers are thrown in teaching. They’re the one group of teachers who perhaps do not have a teaching qualification, and they’re in what are arguably some of the most complex situations and some peer observation of teaching, but maybe initially, one way where new members of staff can come in and be invited in to observe large-class teaching, just to help them get off the ground themselves, or that has, in my case, morphed into co-teaching, where somebody has come in initially a new member of staff has come in to observe, and that’s then kind of the teaching, and that very large class context, in my instance, is supported then in a very collegial, safe way, before they get up and stand in front of 400 students on their own. So it can lead to that. I suppose it’s like having an open-door policy. And it might start off as one way, but if the person ends up co-teaching one or two sessions with you, actually, you can then talk about teaching and learning in that context and give feedback to both of us, [LAUGHTER] rather than the person, in terms of evaluating how the class went or whatever. So it has potential way beyond just two people observing each other.

Rebecca: So Martina, you mentioned that this was a pilot project. Is this something that you’re hoping to continue across the three institutions and expand beyond a pilot?

Martina: I think we would love to. Obviously, there are very fundamental issues like funding, which impact future plans in this regard. So certainly we would love to continue. We’d love to expand. I think, as the three of us here are all working in the one institution now… I was actually working in one of the other institutions at the time of this particular project… what we’re really, I think, focusing on and thinking about is taking the learning and taking some of the elements of that project into how we facilitate peer observation of teaching within one institution. So focusing on the cross-disciplinary aspect, so between schools, between faculties, and really taking some of that learning and embedding it within the existing processes that we have here. And as Ann Marie just mentioned there, specifically also focusing on the role of this for new educators in the way that she described, I think it’s hugely powerful in terms of those first steps into teaching, which can be so daunting and so challenging for somebody new to practice.

John: One of the things I was thinking, and this relates to a conversation we had in an earlier podcast with Anna and Ann Marie, is that by having people from different disciplines, the focus of the observation will be on the pedagogy and on teaching techniques, rather than on the content. Because when we observe people teaching the same courses or in the same discipline, we often tend to think about how we might be doing it, rather than focusing on what is actually being done in the classroom. Is that one of the benefits of this cross disciplinary aspect of the peer observations?

Martina: Yes, absolutely, I completely think that it is, John, for all of the reasons that you’ve stated. I think it really helps people to focus on the process rather than the product of teaching. And I think what’s also useful is it also encourages, and I don’t know Ann Marie and Anne if you might have experienced this, but I feel that it encourages people in the observation setting to also focus on what the students, what the learners, are doing in that teaching space. So not just what the great teaching that Anna and Ann Marie are facilitating, but also: What are the students doing? How are they engaging? When are they being active? When do they appear to be coming a little bit more passive? And that, I’m sure can be really, really helpful then for the individual who is being observed, because it’s that other set of eyes, and it’s a different lens through which you’re seeing what is happening in that teaching space.

Ann Marie: I would agree with that. I think when you observe somebody who is from the same discipline or sub-discipline as you, you can get very caught up with the content and the curriculum, and you lose sight of the teaching and the learning. Whereas if you don’t know anything about the curriculum or about the concepts that are being taught, you have to focus on the teaching. You have to focus on the learning. You have to focus on the actions that have been taken by the teacher and by the students in that context. So it is very helpful, and I think it can be accomplished, though, even within a discipline. So at university level, in particular, the more specialized, narrow experts in some tiny nano aspect we are, the more hireable we are, and the better we are at research and so on. So people within education, for example, who might be in different sub-disciplines, I think, while there would be some overlap in terms of content, in many cases, there isn’t. So even within a discipline, I think you could enable peer observation of teaching, to observe somebody in another sub-discipline, albeit that you’re all coming from the same main discipline, if that was a factor in an institution or whatever, but it definitely forces you to look at the teaching rather than the content of what has been taught.

Anna: And I would absolutely agree with that. And just again, I think Martina’s focus was why it was cross-Institutional, why it was cross-disciplinary. The shared concern was teaching large classes. So that was a shared concern. I would completely support Martina’s observation. In that business classroom. I felt I was authentically a learner, and that, at least to some extent, gave me insights into how the strategies that the lecturer were using were being experienced by my fellow students in the classroom, and also because it was about leadership theory in business education, and that, as both Ann Marie and Martina have said, meant that I wasn’t getting distracted about… I mean, it’s natural for us to think, okay, but I’m teaching that I’m going to use that strategy. It’s great. I’m going to use it. Or if I were doing it, I’d be using a different case study, or I’d be using a different student response system, or whatever it was. Instead, I was really pared back to the things that I recognized about this dynamic of working with a large class, the strategies that the person I was observing was using to seek, maintain attention, to support students’ reflection, for example. So it’s kind of paring it back to the core teaching and learning strategies, and as I say, authentically, putting me in the learner place as much as I could be. The other thing that I thought was interesting, just thinking about it further too, Ann Marie’s observation was, while our disciplines were very different, and indeed, the time that we had spent working and teaching in higher education were very different. We’re very different terms of our experience, my peer spontaneously… I had asked for feedback on certain aspects of my teaching… but she spontaneously said that she liked how I had given feedback and that she was going to use that similar kind of approach. So again, that was affirming, but that was maybe particularly valuable because it was coming from a very, very different discipline,

Rebecca: Building on what we’re talking about, can you share some advice to other folks that might want to set up a similar model of feedback at their own institution?

Martina: I think there’s some key factors which are important, regardless of whether it’s cross-institutional or within one institution. Obviously, if it’s cross-institutional, you need to secure your trusted partners in each institution, and there are funding and logistical implications. But I think that there’s a few common ingredients for success, and one of those is something that I think we’ve all touched on in the discussion, is that creation of that sense of safety and trust in terms of the system. So having a very clear process and plan, making sure that you start with participants around the rationale for, and the philosophy of, peer observation, that introduction into the ethos, very clear guidance in terms of the stages of observation, the feedback conversations, how to reflect, giving people templates to assist them to do that, so making it as easy as possible, so that academic staff feel that it’s safe, but it’s also feasible. It’s also something that’s achievable and that they can build into their practice. So I think that structure and that support is really, really key. I think keeping the conversations alive then about peer observation of teaching and giving people opportunities to hear from those who have already experienced it. So just a couple of months ago, we ran a session during our teaching and learning week here at DCU, where Anna and Ann Marie and another colleague spoke about their experience of peer observation of teaching and what it was like, and what they gained from it, and the challenges and the opportunities. So it’s really important for people to hear those voices from the field, so to speak. And the third thing I would say, is maintaining a focus on the scholarship of teaching and learning around these and the opportunities for research. So we’ve been very lucky in terms of this project. It spawned, I think, probably three publications at this point in time, but one of them, which is the most important one, of course, was a co-authored publication by myself and the two other faculty developers, but also all of the participants. And I think that was a really, I think, lovely and enjoyable part of the process, but really, really powerful in terms of keeping that focus on not just the research output and the research impact of this, but actually what that could contribute to the scholarship of the whole area. So those are my three pieces of advice.

Ann Marie: And just to add to what Martina had said there, the scholarship and the joint publication for us… first of all, it was so generous of Martina and her two colleagues to enable that. Obviously we are expected to write and to research and to publish, and because of the way Martina, Muireann, and Morag structured that, and built in the scholarship that enabled that, that ticked a box for us. And sometimes the teaching and learning piece for staff… staff can see it as something other, and they don’t have time for it, because they have to do research, whereas we need to be looking at those two things being aligned, and I learned a lot from Martina and her two colleagues did that time, and I’m actually using it in a project I’m involved in now where I’ve built in opportunity, hopefully, to get ethical approval. But anyway, I’ve built in an opportunity for intended focus groups of staff here in my faculty to get publications based on their work, on their focus group for themselves, and to get publications for themselves. And I think that’s important, because the reality is we do have to do that, and we cannot ignore it. And the more we can align those two things from the beginning of a project like this, the better.

Anna: Absolutely, I’d reiterate that. So in terms of impact, I would encourage any colleague to go for it. You’ll gain more than you’ll put into it. A practical consideration, I think, spending that time using the kind of reflective models that Martina and her colleagues supported us with to enable us to identify what aspects of teaching you want feedback on. If there’s training available before, the kind of model that Martina used, absolutely go for it. I would strongly encourage it outside of your discipline, and, if possible, outside of your institution. And then finally, to reiterate Martina’s observation about the alignment with scholarship and to encourage Ann Marie on that, that has had a huge impact. The experience of engaging in this pilot peer observation project has had a huge impact on my own practice and then subsequently as a leader of teaching and learning within my faculty. So I found myself talking about this experience a great deal. Actually, it happened at a time when our institutions were undergoing a lot of change. So it was a really positive experience. And therefore I have found myself talking to lots of colleagues in my capacity as a leader in teaching and learning about this and encouraging them, even in their own informal sort of ways, to avail of every opportunity to get into other people’s classrooms and to engage in that feedback piece. And in terms of the alignment with the research, just to echo Ann Marie’s observation of how valuable that was, and that has had a huge impact on other aspects of my practice, for example, leading projects during the COVID pandemic, which were about transition of placement online, and I was really conscious from the get go to build in the opportunities for scholarship, to secure the ethical approval, and we’ve had several outputs in Scopus quartile 1 ranked journals on foot of that. And it’s continuing to impact on my practice in the different role I have in leading placement in my faculty at the moment, and again, adopting that role of kind of having participant researchers, very much focused on participant researchers and building on all those opportunities, as Martina said, not just to tick the box of publication, but the reality is we do need to do that, but to be quite explicit in colleagues about how collectively we are contributing to the furthering of the scholarship of teaching and learning, as well as enhancing our own skills and competencies as higher education teachers.

John: We’ll include a link to those studies in the show notes so that people can access them. I believe one of the things I saw in at least one of those papers was a suggestion that this has led to faculty forming wider support networks, that many of these relationships, once they were formed in a classroom, have continued since then and provided people with more peer support, which I think in a time when higher education is changing quite rapidly, could be really important. Have you found that often happen, that people have continued the relationships after the initial peer observation?

Anna: I just was one observation on that, and one of the reasons that I was motivated to engage in the study was because it provided an opportunity to work with our colleagues in the university’s teaching enhancement unit. And again, that was a really positive so that has absolutely encouraged me, personally, to continue to engage with colleagues. I’ve engaged with, actually, colleagues who were involved with Martina in leading the institution in other contexts. So that relationship and also encouraging, again, in my own role as a leader in teaching and learning, encouraging other colleagues in the faculty to similarly engage as much as possible with colleagues in the teaching enhancement unit in relation to other aspects of enhancing and supporting teaching and learning.

Rebecca: Well, we always wrap up by asking, what’s next?

Martina: So from my perspective, and we’ve mentioned this a little bit already, it’s really, I think, taking those learnings and those elements that we’ve used in that pilot project and implementing them within a system within the institution. So I think our focus on the future will be very much from that cross- disciplinary perspective, so getting different schools and different faculties to work together on this. So that will certainly be one of the things that we’ll be focusing on in the future. I think also maintaining that scholarship of teaching and learning. This is something that I think is ripe for research in so many different contexts, and I think maintaining that collaborative and that participatory approach to the research as well. So that will certainly be some of our key focus in the future.

Ann Marie: For me, in terms of just my own practice, I suppose I have continued on in the way I described earlier, with newer members of staff and existing members of staff coming in to classes sometimes as well. But maybe going forward, it’s something that maybe could be a bit more formalized or a bit more structured. At the minute, it’s ad hoc, so maybe in our own school, that it’s something that could be more structured, more obvious, and spread out a bit more, although I have to say a lot of staff in the school I work in already would have people. They’re very welcoming for other members of staff to come in and sit in and observe and listen to their sessions and so on. So I’m very lucky from that perspective that the doors are open anyway, but maybe it is something we could do a little bit more in a structured way, for new people coming in.

Anna: And just to add to that, again, just thinking about Ann Marie’s right, in our own school of inclusive and special education, there will be a lot of awareness and knowledge in terms of the programs that we offer in the school. But just in terms of teacher education, initial teacher education does tend to be quite packed programs with lots and lots of different elements. And we’ve come out of faculty quality review and come out of a significant review of our initial teacher education programs, and maybe peer observation might also provide a context for colleagues to learn about disparate elements of a program that’s a very large program with a view not just to professional development for those involved in the peer observation, but also developing a kind of a shared understanding of what the program looks like. The more we know about what each other is doing in a program, the more we can scaffold our students’ learning and gets us a little bit out of our silos as well.

Rebecca: Well, thank you so much for joining us. It’s always great to hear about the work that you’re doing, and peer observation is important work, and it’s helpful to hear of specific models of how this can work.

John: We’ve really enjoyed learning more about this process, and we look forward to future conversations. Thank you.

Martina: Thank you.

Ann Marie: Thank you, both of you, for inviting us.

Anna: Thanks. John. T hanks. Rebecca.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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353. Beyond ChatGPT

Faculty concerns over student use of AI tools often focus on issues of academic integrity. In this episode, Marc Watkins joins us to discussion how the use of AI tools may have on student skill development. Marc is the Assistant Director for Academic Innovation at the University of Mississippi, where he helped found and currently directs the AI Institute for Teachers.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Faculty concerns over student use of AI tools often focus on issues of academic integrity. In this episode, we explore other impacts that the use of AI tools may have on student skill development.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by

John: , an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Marc Watkins. Marc is the Assistant Director for Academic Innovation at the University of Mississippi, where he helped found and currently directs the AI Institute for Teachers. Welcome back, Marc.

Marc: Thank you guys. I really appreciate it. I think this is my third time joining you all on the pod. This is great.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are:… Marc, are you drinking any tea?

Marc: I am. I’ve gotten really into some cold brew tea and this is cold brew Paris by Harney and Sons. So very good on a hot day.

John: We have some of the non-cold brewed version of that in our office because the Associate Director of the teaching center enjoys that Paris tea so we keep it stocked pretty regularly. It’s a good tea.

Rebecca: Yeah.

John: My tea today is a peppermint spearmint blend.

Rebecca: Sounds nice and refreshing. I have a Brodies Scottish afternoon tea, and it’s hot. And it’s like 95 here. And I’m not really sure why I’m drinking hot tea in this weather. But I am. [LAUGHTER]

John: Well, I am here in North Carolina, and it’s 90 degrees. So it’s much cooler down here in the south, which is kind of nice. [LAUGHTER] And actually, it’s 71 degrees in this room because the air conditioning is functioning nicely.

Rebecca: Yeah, my studio at home… the one room where the air doesn’t work. So hopefully I don’t melt in the next hour.

John: So we’ve invited you here today to discuss your recent Beyond ChatGPT substack series on the impact of generative AI on student learning. Many faculty have expressed concerns about academic integrity issues, but the focus of your posts have been on how student use of AI tools might impact skill development. And your first post in this series discusses the impact of AI on student reading skills. You note that AI tools can quickly summarize readings, and that might cause students to not read as closely as they might otherwise. What are some of the benefits and also the potential harms that may result from student use of this capability?

Marc: When I first really got into exploring generative AI, really before ChatGPT was launched, there were a lot of developers working in this space, and everyone was playing around with openAI’s API access. And so they’re like, ”Hey, what would you like to build? And people would go on to Twitter, which is now X, and Discord and basically say, “I would like this tool and this tool.” And one of the things that came about from that was a reading assistant tool, which was called Explainpaper. And I think I first played around with this in the fall 2022, and then deployed with students in the spring of 2023. And the whole idea that I had with this and that design was to help students really plow through vast amounts of papers and texts, and so students that have hidden disabilities, or announced disabilities with reading and comprehension, and also students that were working on language acquisition, if you’re working in a second or third language, this type of tool can be really helpful. So I was really excited and I deployed this with my students in my class thinking that this is going to help so many students that have disabilities, that will go through a very challenging text, which is why I set it up as, and it did. The students initially reported to you that this was great. And I met with a lot of my students, and one of them said that she’d had dyslexia her whole life and never wanted to talk about it, because it was so hard and this tool for her was a lifesaver. And so that was great. But then the other part of the class basically said, “Hey, I don’t have to read anything at all ever.” And they don’t have any issues, they were just going to offload the close reading skills. And so I had to take a step back and say, “But wait, that’s not what we want this to actually happen. We want you to use this if you get into a pain point in your reading process, and not completely offload that.” So this really became this kind of a discovery on my part that AI can actually do that, it can generate summaries from vast amounts of texts. There are some really interesting tools that are out there right now: Google’s notebook LM, you can actually upload, I think, 4 million words of your own text to it in 10 different documents, and that will summarize and synthesize that material for you. And like the other tools we played around with the Explainpaper, it can change the summary that it’s generating for the actual document to your own reading level. So you could be reading a graduate level research paper, and you’d like it to be read in an eighth grade reading level, it will change the words and the language of that. So yeah, that could have helpful impacts on learning. It could also lead to a lot of de-skilling of those close reading skills we value so much. So that’s really how this started, was kind of coming up here too, and thinking about “Man, this was such a wonderful tool. But oh my gosh, how is this actually being used? And how has this been marketed to students through social media?”

Rebecca: How do you balance some of these benefits and harms?

Marc: By banging my head against the wall and screaming silently into a jar of screams?

Rebecca: I knew it.

Marc: Yeah, the problem with the jar of screams is every time I open it, some of the screams I put in there before escape before the new ones can come in. That’s a great question. So every single one of these use cases we’re gonna talk about today has benefits but also has this vast sort of terror of being offloading the skills that we would associate with them that are crucial for learning. The most important thing to do at this stage is just to make sure the faculty are aware that this can happen and that this is a use case, that’s the first step. Then the next step is building some friction into the learning process that’s already there. So for reading as an example, something that we do usually is assign close reading through annotation, whether that’s a physical pen and paper, or you could use digital annotation tools like Perusall or Hypothesis to help you go through that, that slows down that process if you’re using AI, and really focuses on learning. So when I say friction, it’s not a bad thing, and point of fact too friction… it’s actually sort of crucial for learning. The one challenge we’re faced with most of these tools is that they’re providing or they’re advertising a friction-free experience for students. And we want to say to them, “Well, you may not want to offload these skills entirely, you want to make sure that you do this carefully.” The main thing too I would think about this is I could never ban this tool even if I wanted to, because you don’t have any control over what students use to read outside of the three hours or so that you’d have in class with students a week. And it would be very beneficial for those students. So we can discuss to look forward to that had all those issues to use it. It’s just basically persuading them to use this in a way that’s helpful to them.

John: It reminds me a little bit of some of the discussions years back on the use of things like Cliff’s Notes for books and so forth, except now it’s sort of like a Cliff’s Notes for anything.

Marc: Indeed, Cliff Notes on demand for anything you want, wherever you want it, however you want it, too. And so how we could do that… what I’d said to my students at the time to kind of get them to be shocked of this is that, “You know, what would your reaction be if I used this to read your essays instead of going through and reading all of it and just giving a nice little generative summary” and one of my students said, “Well, you can’t do that. That’s cheating, you’d be fired.” And I had to explain to them, no one even really knows that this exists yet. There’s no rules. There’s no ethical framework. That’s something we’re going to have to come up with together, both faculty and students talking with each other about this.

Rebecca: It seems like the conversations you were having with students about how to maybe strategically use a tool like this, in this particular way, was an important part of harnessing the learning out of the tool, rather than the quote- unquote cheating aspect of the tool.

Marc: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, the thing we’ve been seeing with every single generative tool that’s been released too, whether it’s for text generation, or for augmenting reading, or doing some of the other use cases, we’ll talk here today, it does take a lot of time and effort on the part of the instructor to basically say, “Look, this is how this tool should be used to help you in this context in our classroom. How you use this outside of the classroom, that’s gonna be on you. But for our intents and purposes here, too, I would like to advocate that you use this tool this way. And here’s the reasons why.” Now asking every educator to do that is just too much of a lift, right? Because most of our folks are just so burnt out with everything else that they have to do. They’re focused on their discipline-specific concerns. They’re not really even on the radar, the fact that this technology exists, let alone how to actually deal with it. Trying to do part of the series is obviously advocating for people to be aware of it. But the next step is going to be building some resources to show how they can use things like annotation and why that matters. And a very quick way for teachers regardless of discipline to start using in their classes.

Rebecca: Your second post in this series examines the effect of AI tools on student notetaking skills. Can you talk a little bit about what might be lost when students rely on AI tools for notetaking and how it might be beneficial for some students as well?

Marc: Yeah, so a lot of the tools are using assisted speech generation software to actually record lecture like we might be using right now on this podcast and a lot of other people are too, and how they’re being marketed to students is just to sort of lean back, take a nap and to have the AI listen to the lecture for you. And some of the tools out there, I think one of them, it’s called Turbolearn.ai, will also synthesize the material, create flashcards for you, create quizzes for you, too. So you don’t have to do that processing part within your mind, which is the key thing. So, notetaking matters. In fact, it can be an art form. I’m not saying that our students treat notetaking like an art form either too, but there are examples of this that is somewhat of an artistic talent, because you as the listener are not just taking down verbatim what’s being said, you’re making these critical choices, these judgments to record what matters and put it in context of what you think you need to know. And that’s an important part of learning something. One thing that I did too as a student when I was in a community college in Missouri as a freshman, I volunteered as a note taker, and back then we did not have assistive technology. I had a pad of paper for myself for my notes and I had a pad of paper that had larger areas to write in for a student who was functionally blind. So I would do two notes at the same time. One in a font that was my size, one was a larger font that he could read with an assistive magnifying glass from one good eye that he had, it was shocking to me that this is what they did. So the first part of the class is do we have anyone who could help take notes? I was like, “Okay, sure I can.” And that’s how that student had notes for him. Obviously having a system like this in place helps those students so much more than having a volunteer notetaker go through this that’s rushing between one set of notes and another too. And using that in an effective way that’s critical, that is thoughtful about how you’re going to engage with it to, is meaningful for their learning versus just hanging back, sitting down letting the AI listen to you for lecture forty.

John: And another mixed aspect of it is the fact that it does create those flashcards and other things that could be used for some retrieval practice. That aspect, I think, could benefit a lot of students. And not all students maintain a very high level of focus and sometimes miss things. So I think there could be some benefits for everyone, as long as they don’t completely lose his skill. And I think maybe by reminding them of that, that could be useful in the same sort of way you talked about reading. But it’s a lot of things to remind students of. [LAUGHTER]

Marc: That’s lot of things to remind them of, too. And keep in mind, it’s a lot of temptation to offload the skills of learning to something that’s going to supposedly promise you to do that skill for you, or do that time-intensive skill for you too. I would love to have this employed in a giant conference somewhere. In fact, I’d love to go into the hallway of a conference and see all these transcripts come together at once in the overhead almost like you’re waiting for a plane flight at your airport, and you’re just seeing the actual material go through there too. That would be exciting for me too, to see what other people are talking about too… maybe I want to pop into this session and see that as well. So I think there’s tons of legitimate use cases for this. It’s just where’s the sort of boundaries we can put in place with this. And that’s true for almost all of this. I was talking to my wife last night, and I said, “When I was growing up, we had a go kart that a few kids in our neighborhood shared and it had a governor on the engine that made sure that the go kart wouldn’t go past 25 miles per hour, because then you’d basically die because it’s a go kart, it’s not really safe.” None of these tools or these technologies have a governor reducing their ability to impact our lives. And that’s really what we need. The thing that’s shocking about all this is that these tools are being released in the public as a grand experiment. And there’s no real use cases about or best practices about how you’re supposed to use this for yourself in your day-to-day life, let alone in education, in your teaching and learning.

Rebecca: I mean, anytime it feels like you can take a shortcut, it’s really tempting, the idea of turbo learning sounds amazing. I would love to learn really quickly. [LAUGHTER] But the reality is that learning doesn’t always happen quickly. [LAUGHTER] Learning happens from mistakes and learning from those mistakes.

Marc: Absolutely. It happens through learning through errors, it happens through learning through friction in many times. We don’t want to remove that friction completely from that learning process.

John: In your third post in the series, you talk about automated feedback and how that may affect both students and faculty. How does the feedback generated from Ai differ from human feedback and what might be some of the consequences of relying on AI feedback?

Marc: Well, so automated feedback is something that generative AI models, especially large language models, are very good at. They take an input based off of the students writing or assessment, and then the instructor can use a prompt that they craft to kind of guide the actual output of that too. So the system I used in the, I think spring of 2023, maybe it’s the fall of 2023 was MyEssayFeedback designed by Eric Kean. And he’s worked with Anna Mills before in the past too to try to make this as teacher friendly, as teacher centric, as possible, because I would get to design the prompts, my students would then be able to get feedback from it. And I use this in conjunction with asynchronous peer review, because it’s an online class. So they got some human feedback, and they got some AI feedback. The thing that was kind of shocking to me was that the students really trusted the AI feedback because it’s very authoritative. It was very quick, and they liked that a lot. And so I did kind of get into the situation where I wanted to talk with them a little bit more critically about that, because some of the things I was seeing behind the scenes is that a lot of the students kept on cueing the system over and over again, they’d get one round of feedback from the tool, they would try to go back and using air quotes right now so your audience can see this “fix” their essay. And my whole point is their writing is not broken. It doesn’t need to be fixed. And generative AI is always going to come up with something for you to work on in your essay. And one student I think went back seven or eight times saying “Is it right now? Is it perfect?” And the AI would always say something new. And she got very frustrated. [LAUGHTER] And I said “I know you’re frustrated, because that’s how the AI is. It’s not smart, even though it sounds authoritative, even though it’s giving you some advice that is useful to you. It doesn’t know you as a writer, it doesn’t understand what you’re actually doing with this piece.” So that crucial piece of AI literacy, knowing that what the limitations are too, is a big one. I think also when you start thinking about how these systems are being sold, in terms of agentic AI, we’re not there yet. None of these systems are fully agentic. That involves both strategic reasoning and long-term planning. When you can see that being put in place with students and their feedback, that can become very, very scary in terms of our labor for faculty to understand that, because there are some examples of some quirky schools, I think it’s the Health Academy in Austin’s one of them that have adopted AI to both teach and provide feedback for students. And I know there’s some other examples too, that talk about the AI feedback being better than human feedback in terms of accuracy. And that is something that we are going to have to contend with. But when I provide feedback for my students, I’m not doing it from an aggregate point of view, I’m not doing it to try to get to the baseline, I want to see my student as a human being and understand who that writer is, and what that means to them. That’s not saying that you can’t have a space for generative feedback, you just want to make sure you do so carefully and engage with it in a way that’s helpful for the students.

John: And might that interfere with student’s development of their own voice in their discipline?

Marc: I think so. And I think the question we don’t have an answer to yet is what happens when our students stop writing for each other or for us and start writing for a bot? What happens when they start writing for a robot? That’s probably going to change their voice and also maybe even some of their ideas and their outlook on the world too, in ways that I’m not all that comfortable with.

Rebecca: It does seem like there’s real benefits to having that kind of feedback, especially for more functional things like grammar and spelling and consistency and that kind of thing. But when you lose your voice, or you lose the fresh ways of saying things or seeing things in the world. [LAUGHTER] you lose the humanity of the world, [LAUGHTER] like it just starts to dissipate. And to me, that’s terrifying.

Marc: It’s terrifying to me too, to say the least. And I think that’s where we go back into trying to find, where’s the line here? Where do we want to draw it? And no one’s doing it for us. We’re having to come up with this largely on our own in real time.

Rebecca: So, speaking of terrifying [LAUGHTER] and lines, you note about how large language models are developing into large multimodal models that simulate voice, vision, expression, and emotion. Yikes. How might these changes affect learning, we’ve already started digging into that.

Marc: Yeah, so this is really about both Google’s demo, which is I think called Project Astra and also openAI’s demo, which is GPT4 omni. Half of the GPT4 omni model is now live for users, you can use the old version of the large language model too for resources, but the other half is live streaming audio and video. And the demo used a voice called Sky that a few people, including Scarlett Johansson, said “that sounds an awful lot like me.” And even the creator of openAI, Sam Altman, basically said that they were trying to go for that 2013 film Her where she started as the chatbot to Joaquin Phoenix. And basically, this is just the craziest thing I can ever think of. If openAI goes through with the promise of this, it will be freely available and rate limited for all users. And you can program the voice to be anything you want, whenever you want. So yes, it’s gonna be gross and creepy, there’s probably going to be people that want to date Sky or whoever it is. But even worse than that, there will probably be people who want to program this to be a political bot. And they only want to learn from a liberal or conservative voice, if they only want a voice that is of their values and their understanding of the world. If they don’t like having a female teacher, maybe they only want a male voice talking to them. Those are some really, really negative downstream effects of this that go back into how siloed we are right now with technology anyway, that you can now basically create your own learning experience or your own experience, and filter the entire world through it. We have no idea what that’s going to do to student learning. Sal Khan thinks that this is going to be a revolution, he wrote about this in Brave New Words. I think that this is going to be the opposite of that. I think it’s going to be more chaotic. I think it’s also going to become, for us as teachers, very difficult to try to police in our classes, because at my understanding of this, this is a gigantic privacy issue. If your students just come up and you’re having a small group discussion or anything else that’s going on too, and one of them activates this new multimodal feature in GPT4 omni and there are voices streaming, they’re talking to the Chatbot and everything else, anything that goes into that is probably going to be part of its training data in some way, shape, or form. Even Google’s demo of this using Project Astra, part of the demo was actually having someone walk around a room in London, they had stopped on a computer screen that was not the actual person’s computer screen and it had some code running for encryption and it read the encryption out loud. It said what it was. So there’s some big time issues that are coming up here too. And it’s all happening in real time. We don’t even have a chance to basically say, “Hey, I don’t really want this,” versus “Oh, this has now been updated. I now have to contend with this live in my own life and in my classes.”

John: Going back to that issue of friction that you mentioned before, Robert Bjork and others have done a lot of work on the issue of desirable difficulties. And it seems like many of these new AI tools that are being marketed to students are designed to eliminate those desirable difficulties. What sort of impacts might that have in terms of student learning and long-term recall of concepts.

Marc: I love desirable difficulties too, and I think that’s a wonderful framing mechanism outside of AI to talk about this too, and why learning really matters. I think the downstream consequences that if this is widely adopted by students, which I think a lot of tech developers want this to happen, and we don’t see this sort of sporadic usage. which we’re seeing right now… to be clear to your audience, not every student is adopting this, not everyone’s using this, most of them are really not aware of it. But if we do see this widespread adoption of this, too, it is going to have a dramatic impact on the skills we associate with reading, the skills that we associate with creating model citizens who are critical thinkers and ready to go into our role to actually participate in them. If we really do get to the situation where they use these tools to offload learning, we’re kind of setting up our students for being uncritical thinkers. And I don’t think that’s a good idea.

Rebecca: Blah. [LAUGHTER] Can you transcribe that, John? [LAUGHTER]

John: I will. I had to do a couple of those. [LAUGHTER]

Marc: Well, blah is always a great version of that. Yeah. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: I only have sound effects.

John: One of the transcripts mentioned “horrified sound” as the transcript.[LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: I think that’s basically my entire life. These are the seeds of nightmares, all of them… seeds of giant nightmares.

Marc: Well, I think the thing too, that’s so weird about this is that, yes, and this is kind of getting into the dystopia version of it, but there’s clearly good use cases for these tools, if you can put some limitations on it. And if the developers would just sort of pause and think not just as someone wanting to make money, but as someone who would use this tool to actually learn or be useful to their lives, what areas do they want to design to actually preserve that sort of human judgment, that human sort of friction in learning is going to be meaningful for that going forward?

Rebecca: Yeah, guardrails and ethics would be great.

Marc: Absolutely.

Rebecca: So a number of these tools are also designed to facilitate research. What’s the harm? What harm might there be when we rely on AI research tools more extensively, and get rid of that human judgment piece?

Marc: Yeah, I think one of the tools I used initially was Elicit and Elicit’s probably the most impressive research tool that’s currently available. It is expensive to use, so it’s hard to sort of like practice using it now. It was free initially. Consensus AI, I think is the best ChatGPT plugin that you can use through the custom GPT store. But what Elicit does is it goes through hundreds, if not 1000s, of research papers, and it automates the process of reading those papers for you, synthesizing that material, and giving you an sort of aggregate understanding of the state of knowledge, not just within your research question, but perhaps even in your field of research you’re trying to acquire. So you’re basically offloading the process of research, which for a researcher to do that, takes hundreds upon hundreds of hours of dedicated work, and you’re trusting an algorithm that you can’t audit, you can’t really ask how it came up with its response. So yes, it’s a wonderful tool, when it works and when it gives you an accurate response. Sometimes the responses are not accurate in the least. And if you haven’t read the material too, it’s very difficult to sort of pick up on where the machine is making an error. So yeah, there’s a lot of issues if we just uncritically adopt using this tool, versus if you sort of put some ground rules and ethics about how to use this, to support your research, to support your learning as well. And I think that’s what we want to try to strive for with all of these. And research is just one level of that.

Rebecca: We all have our own individual assumptions that we make when we do things, many of which we’re not aware of. But when we’re relying on tools like this, there’s many more layers of assumptions that we might not be aware of that are built into the software or into the tools or in the ways that it’s doing its analysis or synthesis that I think seems particularly concerning to me.

Marc: Yes, the bias, the sort of hidden biases that we’re not even aware of. And then the developers I don’t think are aware of either, too, is another layer that we can go into and think about this. I say that layer, because this really is like an onion, you peel back the layer, there’s another layer there, another layer, another layer, you’re just trying to get to the point where it’s not so rotten anymore. And it’s very difficult to do because the way that this has been shaped to do is to just accelerate those human tasks as quickly as you can to reduce as much friction as possible, so that you can just sit back and get a response as quickly as you can from this. And in a lot of ways the marketing of this basically describes this as almost like magic. Well, it’s not magic, it’s just prediction and using massive amounts of compute to get you to that point as well, but there are some serious consequences, I think, to our learning if we just uncritically adopt that.

John: Going back a bit, though, to early in my career, I remember the days of card catalogs and indexes where you had to read through a lot of material to find references. And then finding more recent work was almost impossible unless you happen to know of colleagues doing this work at some other institution, or you had access to the working papers of other institutions because of connections. The fact that we have electronic access to these files, and you don’t have to wait a few weeks for one to be mailed to you, or go through interlibrary loan. And that we can do searches and get indexes or get abstracts, at least for these articles, takes us a long way forward. And one other thing is that I do subscribe to Google Alerts in some of my popular papers. And then I occasionally, maybe once every month or so when I see some new ones, I’ll just look at the article and about half the time the person who cites the article gets it wrong, they actually refer to it in a context that’s not entirely relevant. I think in some ways, maybe relying on an AI tool that generates some summaries of the articles before people add them to their bibliography or footnotes, might actually, in some cases, improve the work. Going back again to the early days, one of the things I enjoyed most when I was up there in the periodical sections of the library were the articles around the ones that I was looking for, they’d often lead to some interesting ideas. And that doesn’t come up as much now when you’re using an online search tool, but as you’ve noted all along, we have both benefits and costs to all this. And in this issue, I’m kinda thinking some of the benefits might be worth some of the costs, as long as people follow through and actually read the articles that seem relevant.

Marc: I think that’s the key point too. So long as this leads you to where you want to go. That’s just like what Wikipedia basically is, that’s a great starting point for your research, it just leads you back to the primary sources to actually go in there and read to do it. The challenge that I think we see, and this is what it goes back down to where we go back that onion sort of analogy, is that a lot of the tools that are out there now …I think one of them is called ProDream AI or something like this… will not only find the sources for you, but then it will draft the lit review for you as well. So you don’t have to go through that process of actually reading it. And obviously, that’s where we want to pause and say this isn’t a good idea. But I agree with you completely. John, we are in a digital age, we have been for over 25 years now too. And in fact, when I students is: “This was a terrible experience because I can’t navigate this thing. This is just so horrible for me to do.” And yet every time I’ve done this with the AI research for my students, the interface design is much more easy for them to actually establish and look at sources and go through this and think about it, and part is because the algorithm is now using some of those techniques to actually narrow down their sources too and help them identify them as well. So yeah, there’s definitely benefits to it. It’s not all black and white, for sure.

Rebecca: There’s a lot of gray. [LAUGHTER] I think one of the things that you’re hinting at too is this difference between experts using a tool and novices or someone who’s learning a set of skills. And the way that these tools are designed, an expert is going to be able to use a tool and have a judgment call about whether or not what’s provided is accurate, helpful, relevant, etc. Whereas a novice doesn’t know what they don’t know. And so it becomes really challenging for them to have the information literacy skills that may be necessary to negotiate whether or not this is a path to follow or not. For me, that’s one of the biggest differences when we’re talking about using these tools in a learning context versus using these tools in a professional context are ways to save time to get to the point or get to an end result more swiftly.

Marc: Oh, absolutely. I think that thinking about the audience who’s using it too: a first-year true freshman student, using a tool like this versus a third-year PhD student working on their thesis is a totally different audience, totally different use case. For the most part, the PhD student hopefully has that literacy needed to effectively use these tools already, they might still need some guidance, might need some guardrails and some ethical framing for this too, but it’s a very different situation from that freshman student. I think that’s why most faculty aren’t thinking about how they’re using these tools, because they already have many of those skills already solidified. They don’t need to have a refresher course necessarily on research because they’ve done this now for a large part of their career. For their perspective, adopting these tools is not going to necessarily de-skill them, it might just be necessarily a timesaver in this case.

Rebecca: And what skills we’re offloading to a tool. Some things are just repetitive tasks that take a long time that a tool is great to solve. Just a kind of a waste of time versus really like critical thinking or kind of creative aspects of maybe some of the work we do.

Marc: The tool I want, and I think this exists, I just haven’t found it yet is when I’m trying to write a post and instead of trying to search for the URL to go into the actual title that automatically just finds the URL for me to click on it. I’ll review it for a second, because it takes me so much time finding the URL for the page when I’m doing either a newsletter or I’ve tried to update a website, that would be amazing. Those are some of the things that we could use really easily to cut down on those repetitive tasks, for sure.

John: In your six post in this series, you talk a little bit about issues of ethics. And one thing that I think many students have noted is that many faculty have extremely different policies in terms of when AI is allowed, if it’s allowed, and under what conditions it’s allowed, which creates a lot of uncertainty, and faculty aren’t always very good at conveying that information to students. What should we be doing to help create perhaps a more transparent environment for our students?

Marc: Well, I think transparency is the key word there. We want to, if we’re using these tools for instructional design, be transparent about what we’re using this to, just to model that behavior for our students. So if I develop a lesson plan or use a slide deck that has generated images, I want to clearly identify what part of AI was in that actual creation and talk about why that matters in these situations. What concerns me is that these tools are being turned on left and right for faculty without any sort of guides or best practices about that. I actually asked for Blackboard to have a feature built in with a new AI assistant, so it could identify what was AI generated with a click of a button. There’s no reason why you can’t build something that tracks what was generated by AI within the learning management system. And the response that I’ve gotten to is: “Who basically cares about that?” Well, I kind of care about that, and I care about this for the effects we’re trying to do for our students as well. But yeah, I think adopting a sort of stance of transparency as a clear expectation, both for our own behavior and our students behavior is going to be more meaningful than turning to sort of an opaque AI detector that’s only going to give you a percentage about if this is aggregated content or human content or completely misses the entire situation and misidentifies a human being as AI or vice versa. And that’s something I think we want to focus on as being that human in the loop situation here too. And really not offloading ethics in this casein just trying to teach it. It is hard to do that when the technology is changing rapidly before your very eyes, though. And that’s what this has felt like now for the last two years, I think.

Rebecca: You’re really concerned when faculty lean on an AI detection tool as the only way of identifying something that might be AI generated or an academic integrity violation of some sort. Can you talk a little bit about the effectiveness of these tools, and when they might be useful and when they might not be useful?

Marc: Yeah, to me, they’re not very reliable in an academic context, there’s far too many false positives. And more importantly, too, the faculty that employ them, for the most part, aren’t really trained to actually use them. So some universities have invested in academic misconduct officers, academic honesty officers, or whatever you call them, for offices of academic misconduct, where they actually have people who are trained to both use these tools and provide this to faculty. I might be a so-called expert at AI, again, I’m gonna use air quotes here too, because I’m self taught like everyone else is. But I don’t think I would be comfortable in an academic based conduct investigation, trying to use these tools, which I barely understand how they work, trying to come up with a case for students to do so. The few areas that I’ve looked at that have engaged AI detection, do so as part of a process. And that process is just one part of the AI detector, they have independent advocates usually coming in talking with the students and talking with the faculty member, they don’t go to taking students up on charges at the first step, they often try to look at a restorative process to see if that’s possible. So if the first instance of a student using this technology, they would sit down, and they would be like a third party between the instructor and the student, and talk about if something could be repaired within the relationship. And if the student would acknowledge that an ethical breach actually happened here, not rule breaking, but an ethical breach that has damaged this relationship. And can that relationship be basically restored in some way. So to me, that’s the gold standard of trying to do this, that takes a whole bunch of resources to set up, lots of training, lots of time, versus let’s buy an AI detector for our entire university, turn this on and here’s a little one-page guide about how to use it. And that, to me, has set up this recipe for just chaos in the world too. And it doesn’t matter what detector you’re using. They all have their own issues. And none of them are going to ever give you a complete picture of what’s going on with that student. And I think the big challenge we’re seeing too is that we’re moving well beyond AI detection into some pretty intense surveillance. We’ve got some companies going to stylometry and going through keystroke logging, tracking what was copied and pasted into a document, when it was copied and pasted to. And these are all interesting novel techniques to try to figure out what was written and who wrote it, but they also have some downstream consequences, especially if they don’t involve training. I can imagine certain faculty using that time stamping technique to penalize students by not spending enough time on their writing, whether there is AI in it or not, they’re looking at: “you only spent two hours on this essay that was assigned over two weeks, that’s not showing me all you’ve learned, other students spent 5, 6, 7,12, 14 hours on this. So I think we have to be really careful about what comes online these next few years, and really approach it critically, just like we are asking our students to, so that we don’t look for a solution for this problem that’s based on technology.

John: One of the things you discuss in this essay, though, is the use of digital watermarking, such as the work that Google has been doing with synthID. Could you talk a little bit about how that works, and what your thoughts are about this.

Marc: So watermarking has been sort of on the perpetual horizon in AI for a long time. I think Scott Aaronson, he teaches at the University of Texas, he has been working with open AI for the last two or three years, he has really been very vocal about his own research into watermarking. And supposedly, he has a watermarking system at OpenAI working in the background, they just have not deployed it in public. Google’s synthID is not just for text, it’s for images, it’s for audio, it’s for video. And it’s really designed for what our world is going to very soon look like when you can have an AI that makes the President say anything, do anything, and deal with this vast amounts of misinformation and disinformation, too. And so what synthID is is their actual watermarking technique, and watermarking starts at the source of the generation. So their model was Gemini. And when watermarking comes online, it uses cryptography to put a code into the actual generation, whether that’s a picture, a video, music, or text that can only be deciphered from a key that they actually have. And so watermarking is this really interesting technique that it can be used to try to identify what was made by machine versus a human being. The challenge is, the last time I checked, there’s almost 70 different models on the market now that use multimodal AI or large language models. And those are the only ones I’ve been tracking, I’m sure there’s probably hundreds of others that are small that people have been developing, Google’s synthID model is specific to Google’s products, all the other watermarking schemes will be absolutely specific to OpenAI or Microsoft or Anthropic or any other companies. So it’s going to be the situation where you’re going to use a tool, then you have to rely on the tool to give you a classification if this is accurate or not. And from what I’ve also read, it’s pretty easy to break, because you can feed it into an opposing system’s AI or an open model. And it will simply rewrite it, removing the actual code in that process. So I don’t think watermarking is going to be a long-term solution, I do think it’s a good first step towards something that we can actually do. But it’s just a little bit too chaotic right now in the space. And we would need some massive sort of multinational treaties with different countries who don’t like to talk with us to try to get a sort of unilateral watermarking scheme in place that everyone will agree upon. And then we’d all have to cross our fingers that that key would never be released to the public. Because if that ever happened, that’s when the whole sort of house of cards falls apart.

Rebecca: So that’s kind of a fantasy.

Marc: …kind of a fantasy, but part of this stuff, I think, is marketing based. So like Google wants their products to be both safe and secure. You can’t have that safety and security unless you have some sort of system between there. And that’s what synthID is. I think that it can possibly work for audio, for video, and even for images. I think text is a lot more fungible than anything else, because it’s very easy to start copying and pasting things out there too. It’s also easy to write as yourself as a human being into a document. And that becomes very difficult to sort of gauge what was human versus AI using a watermarking type of program like this.

Rebecca: The final post in your series addresses the use of generative AI tools to design instructional content and activities. Instructors often find the use of AI tools to be very useful for these purposes, even if they ban it for their students. What concerns do you have about relying on AI tools in this context?

Marc: My concern there: “AI for me, not for you. It makes perfect sense to me going forward.” Yeah, obviously we go back into this phase of trying to model ethical behavior using the tools too and understanding why this matters. If you’re going to use a tool to grade or design rubrics, you want to be open about it. You want to be attributing what you use this tool for too, because your students are going to be looking at you and seeing “Well, how are you using this in your job? How am I going to be using this in my job when I graduate from here too?” That’s the actual grounding framework we can do for this for our students and for ourselves. If we can think about that and do that, then we don’t have to necessarily rely on technology as being the sole solution for this, we can start talking about “this is the ethical behavior I’m modeling for you too, this is the ethical behavior I expect from you too. Let’s work together and think about what that means.” Now, that’s not always going to be the solution for this situation, some students are going to listen to that, other students are going to smile at you and go back and happily generate away and try to get past it. But the fact is, we do have that agency in our part too. And that is something I think we should be leaning into right now. Because the connections we’re developing with our students too are, as of this time, still human-to-human base, for the most part. I want to value that and use that to try to persuade them on an ethical pathway.

Rebecca: Modeling our use of technology leads to so many different interesting conversations with students. I know that when I’ve talked about using assistive technology in my classes, having something to read to you if you’re having trouble focusing or using some of these tech tools to solve barriers that you’re facing in getting your work done. And sharing the ways that you use tools to do the same can be really helpful in leading to student success. So I can see how doing the same thing when it’s an AI product is relevant. I know that I used AI to generate a bunch of little case studies for one of my classes and I just told the students that that’s what I did… fed it in a prompt, and I made some tweaks to it, but this is where it came from. And they found it really interesting, and we ended up having a really interesting conversation about when it might be most relevant to use particular tools and when maybe it’s not as wise to use a particular tool, because it isn’t actually helping you in any kind of way. Or it’s defeating the learning, or it’s not really creating a good product in the end.

Marc: That’s a wonderful use case. I mean, sitting down there talking with them and saying how I use this, why use this, let’s get into discussion about this, maybe even a debate about that, too, is part of the learning process. And I’m glad you focused on the fact that about the assistive technologies, I want my students to use this technology if they need to, they don’t need to announce that they have a disability. We need to really be focusing on this fact, for education beyond. At our university, they have to go through a very formalized process to be recognized by the Office of Student Disabilities. It’s very expensive, it’s time consuming, that is out of reach for the vast majority of students, even if they felt comfortable going out there and advocating for themselves that way or if they had parents or other resources to do that. I want to design my classes so that students are aware that these tools exist, that they can use them and that they can be able to trust them to hopefully be able to use this in a way that is effective to their learning too and to trust them for that. That’s what I want. Now if that’s going to happen is another case, indeed. But that’s going to take time. The one thing I will say too, and I think that something that popped up here at a recent story that I read is that professors were moving from a point of despair to anguish with this technology, and I want us to avoid that more than anything else. Because that’s not the sort of stance we need to be taking for ourselves when we deal with this technology with our students. We can navigate this, it’s just going to take a lot of time and a lot of energy. And I hope administrations of various institutions are listening to that too, that they really need to focus on the training aspect of this technology, both for students and for actual teachers. This isn’t just something you flip a switch and turn on and say: “You guys now have AI, go learn how to use it…” that has been a recipe for disaster for it.

Rebecca: It’s definitely a complex topic, because there’s so much hope for equity in some of these tools, especially for students with disabilities. But then there’s also the really scary parts too. [LAUGHTER] So finding that balance, and making sure that both enter conversations when we’re having conversations about AI, I think, is really important. And I appreciate that today we’ve done that, that we’ve talked about some of the scary aspects, but also there’s some real benefits to having these tools available to our students and incorporating them and really having deep and meaningful conversations about them.

Marc: Absolutely. I think that one of the most powerful things I’ve done from the AI Institute is when you can get a skeptic and an early AI adopter at the same table together talking about these things back and forth. You really do see how people come out of their sort of silos and their positions and they can kind of come together and say “Yes, this is an actual use case or two. This is actually meaningful. This is good. How do I make sure that I can put some boundaries on this for my own students and their learning?”

John: So, we always end with a question which is so much on everyone’s mind concerning AI, and that is: “what’s next?”

Marc:Well, what is next indeed? So I think we’re all holding our breath to see if OpenAI is going to fulfill its promise and asking if they’re going to turn on this new multimodal system that lets you talk with it, lets it see you, because they have not done so yet. So we have a little bit of time. But that is going to be on everyone’s mind this fall if they do so. Because having an AI that can listen to you, talk with you, and have a voice that you get to program it, is going to be a new set of challenges that we have not really come up with yet.

John: Well, thank you. This has been fascinating, and your series is wonderful. And I hope that all faculty think about these issues, because a lot of people are focusing on a very narrow range of issues and AI is going to affect many aspects of how we work in higher ed.

Marc: Thank you, John. Thank you, Rebecca. This has been great too. And hopefully I’ll be putting some more resources into that series [LAUGHTER] when I have a chance to do so here.

John: And we will include a link to your substack in the show notes because you’ve got a lot of good information coming out there regularly.

Marc: Thank you.

Rebecca: Well, thanks for joining us. We hope to talk to you again soon.

Marc: I appreciate it. Thank you guys.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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348. Active Learning Initiative at UGA

While there is compelling evidence that active learning results in increased student learning, these initiatives often face resistance from students and faculty. In this episode, Megan Mittelstadt and Leah Carmichael join us to discuss the active learning initiative at the University of Georgia that provides professional development for faculty, active learning training for students, and for the redesign of classroom spaces. Meg is the Director of the Center for Teaching and Learning at the University of Georgia. Leah is the Director of Active Learning, also at the University of Georgia.

Show Notes

Transcript

xJohn: While there is compelling evidence that active learning results in increased student learning, these initiatives often face resistance from students and faculty. In this episode, we explore a large-scale active learning initiative that provides professional development for faculty, active learning training for students, and for the redesign of classroom spaces to better support this initiative.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guests today are Megan Mittelstadt and Leah Carmichael. Meg: is the Director of the Center for Teaching and Learning at the University of Georgia. Leah is the Director of Active Learning, also at the University of Georgia. Welcome Meg: and Leah.

Meg: Hi.

Leah: Good to be here.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are:… Meg, are you drinking tea?

Meg: I am, I’m drinking double chai. Tea is a big deal. In our center. All of the people who work here have favorites. And we provide tea service at every workshop and I checked this morning, the most popular tea at our workshops is lemon ginger.

Rebecca: Oh, that’s good to know. Another teaching center full of tea. [LAUGHTER]

Meg: Yeah, we even have the teas of folks who don’t work here anymore that we keep stashed, just in case. So, Leah, you know, Colleen. Colleen drank…

Leah: Yeah.

Meg: …caffeine free peppermint tea, and we still keep it stashed, even though she doesn’t work here anymore. [LAUGHTER] Just in case.

Rebecca: How about you, Leah?

Leah: Well, I am a diehard coffee drinker. And so I am enjoying a cup of coffee. But my best friend is a potter, so I have her beautiful mug here to enjoy it with.

Rebecca: Wonderful. How about you, John?

John: I’m drinking a black raspberry green tea today.

Rebecca: Oh, that’s nice. And I’m back to my blue sapphire black tea.

John: Black and blue?

Rebecca: It’s black and blue. [LAUGHTER] We’re recording this at the end of the semester. [LAUGHTER]

John: We read about the active learning initiative in a recent Chronicle article and we invited you here to talk a little bit about the active learning initiative at the University of Georgia. We were really impressed to see that the university had budgeted over a million dollars a year for five years as part of the university’s Quality Enhancement Plan. This is a really large investment in effective teaching practices, and it’s especially impressive that this is happening at an R1 university. How did this initiative come about?

Meg: Yeah, we’re really excited that this investment is happening. And it kind of stems from an initial pilot that happened in 2018. There was a presidential initiative on active learning that resulted from a faculty task force. And so in 2018, our president allocated a million dollars to active learning programs, as a pilot. I feel super lucky to have a president who cares so deeply about the teaching enterprise at UGA. It’s something that you don’t see at every institution. And so I really appreciate it, value it, and count my luck there. Our president allocated a million dollars in 2018 for an active learning course redesign institute and a pilot classroom infrastructure renovation, and also the creation of a one-credit course for our students called Becoming an Active Learner that’s deployed by our Student Success Center. And that first year, we thought, “Gosh, it might just be a one-year investment, so we really got to make this count.” And so all the folks in the center sort of got together and backwards designed the programming for our first Active Learning Summer Institute, which by the way, was one of the most gratifying and enjoyable experiences of my career to get five educational developers in a room and get to go totally meta and apply the backwards-design process to the creation of a Course Design Institute. We nerded out. [LAUGHTER] We had like the room where we had all of our notes on the walls, and it was sort of our Beautiful Mind room for the Course Redesign Institute. We loved it. And so we designed this institute for 2018, and it went quite well. The folks at our institution who applied were way more applications than we could accommodate in the Institute and the folks who got into the Institute had a good experience. And we were able to show a couple of courses that had been redesigned seeing some really significant positive outcomes for students, both in terms of their depth of understanding, but also in some of the metrics in courses like numbers of Ds, Fs and withdrawals from courses decreasing in a few really key courses like our introductory mathematics course sequence. And so we were able to go back to the President and the Provost every year after that and say, “Okay, here’s how the course redesign Institute went, could we get funding to do it again?” And so we continued to do it every year. And this continued for a couple more years. And when we got into the 2020 timeframe, UGA was preparing for our next reaffirmation through SACSCOC. And for SACSCOC reaffirmation, an important component of that reaccreditation proposal is the creation and proposal of a Quality Enhancement Plan (or QEP). And so a committee was assembled to come up with what that topic might be, and they looked at programs that existed on campus as well as the university strategic plan. And luckily, by this point, our strategic plan had been drafted with quite a few key performance indicators related to the adoption of active learning practices. And so they identified this opportunity to scale the Active Learning Initiative at UGA. And so they proposed this topic, it was selected and now the funding has been stabilized for some of the pilot programs that existed, but also some newer initiatives to0.

Rebecca: There’s a substantial body of work supporting the efficacy of active learning and increasing student learning and reducing equity gaps. And it’s so exciting to hear about such a big investment and the interest of faculty [LAUGHTER] having more interest than spots for example, But I know one of the things that sometimes happens when faculty decide to start implementing active learning in their classes is sometimes there’s some pushback from students, but I heard you say something about a one-credit course for students. Can you talk a little bit about that? And how that ties to preparing students for this endeavor?

Meg: Yeah, so because we had this course from the get go, there was already this idea that reaching out directly to students and building their capacities and dispositions as learners to amplify their success in an active learning environment is something we might ought to think about. Of course, we also think about it from the faculty side too. One of our most popular sessions in the Course Redesign Institute is a session on student resistance to active learning, and we rely heavily on Tolman and Kremling’s Why Students Resist Learning for that session and then talk about some of the instructor facilitation and explanation strategies that instructors can use to ensure that student resistance is not cropping up and to help prevent barriers to student engagement. I think what’s really cool about Tolman and Kremling’s book is that they reframe “student resistance” to “barriers to engaging” and so we work with faculty to reframe student resistance as “Where are the barriers to engaging that we need to address as instructors?” And then on the student side too, the philosophy is “Where are there barriers to engaging?” And then “When can we do some really important work to help students appreciate that engaging in active learning is a really actually durable practice for them?” It’s really going to benefit them long term. And since that idea was already in the mix, as we were coming up with the programming for the QEP, there was a really large committee, I think, a 33-person committee of faculty, students, and administrators who proposed the programming that would go into our Active Learning Initiative. And one of the things that they wanted to think about was the role that metacognition plays in active learning. That was identified really early on because we were already aware of the student piece, thinking about metacognition as a key component of active learning. The committee spent quite a bit of time unpacking: “What are the learning dispositions involved in student metacognition? And what are the learning dispositions involved in lifelong learning and other benefits of active learning? And where’s the overlap?” So we looked at things like the AAC&U value rubrics on lifelong learning. And I think the other one was, I want to say, it was like transferable learning, I’m getting the title wrong. But anyway, there were two AAC&U value rubrics that we looked at, as well as some of the literature on metacognition and literature on lifelong learning. And our assessment team identified four student learning dispositions that seemed to exist across all of the categories that we were looking at: students acting more curiously, students engaging with initiative, students becoming more reflective in their practice as learners, and students drawing connections between what they were learning in their active learning courses and developing other knowledge and skills. And so we use this framework of these four learning dispositions to really drive our student programming. And I’m going to pass it over to Leah, so she can share a little bit more about how we’ve expanded beyond this one credit hour course to a whole portfolio of student facing initiatives.

Leah: So, first of all, I would like to say with the instructor development piece, I was an instructor on campus, a lecturer, and was in that first cohort in 2018, an international affairs scholar. And it really was the first time that I had had such a professional development opportunity that felt like it truly revolutionized the way I taught, the way I thought about my students, the way I interacted with my students. And so whereas I was taught to transform one of my courses, I ended up transforming them all. And when I was able to be on the team for active learning, I signed up, it was really excited to do that. So it was an amazing experience. For the student piece, what I really love is that we have not just gone to the instructors and said, “Alright, it’s time to consider something different and then your job is to not only do all this hard work to change and rethink your courses, but then can you do us a favor and sell it to the students?” That’s just such a burden and very difficult. And so within CTL, they do a great job of training us in the Institute to go in first day and frame the course, to craft our syllabus language in a way that would potentially be able to introduce this course before even day one and to help decrease that student resistance. So that was a really important piece. But we also would have these teams of students, these just superstars on campus, who are also part of the programming for active learning. One of my absolute favorites is the peer learning assistants. This is an on-campus paid position for students. They apply and they are able to either return to a class or return to an instructor whom they have worked with before. And they attend a class where they facilitate active learning approaches and activities with the instructor. So the peer learner is responsible for helping with the planning of the course and preparation with the instructor implementing it and then also of course, following along with the course materials. And this is a key: this near-peer experience has been key in allowing the burden to be shared in introducing active learning within a classroom. And the students look at these peers, maybe a semester ahead of them sometimes, maybe years, and they start to see these mentors that are built in. And these students know and care about active learning. They see why it works in the class and they’re returning to the class. And we have found that those classrooms have been just the most wonderful place to see this cultural change among students. We also have active learning ambassadors. And they are trained to do outreach. They do demonstrations for faculty. One of my favorite moments is we have an active learning summit every year open to the public. But we have an active learning summit in which they run a showcase where the faculty walk in, and there are students behind tables with interactive material demonstrating different active learning techniques and how they see it in their class, how they use it for study skills, and how they would enjoy instructors being able to incorporate it in their classroom. The faculty love it. They stop, they ask questions, they think, “Well, what about this? Well, this would be difficult.” And then students give that experience from their perspective of how these techniques work for them. And we see that the faculty really crave that and really enjoy being the learner in that moment, and learning from a student about what techniques work best for them.

Meg: And Leah, I think one thing that’s really unique about our quality enhancement plan that I haven’t seen at other institutions yet, or if they have them, I haven’t seen them, so mea culpa. But one thing that’s really cool about our Quality Enhancement Plan is that we have a partnership with our Office of Student Affairs where they’ve designed some programming through our residential life curriculum to embed active learning in the co-curriculum too, so that students are experiencing and talking about the value of active learning not just in the classroom with each individual instructor, but experiencing active learning outside of the classroom in the co-curriculum. Students who are leaders on campus are trained in active learning facilitation techniques, so that when they go in to serve as leaders of student groups on campus, they have some of these active learning tools in their back pocket that they can deploy and experience on the other side as well. So we’re really seeing active learning proliferated, not just in the classroom, but outside of the classroom too.

John: It’s nice to see such a holistic approach. In so many cases where we’ve seen active learning initiatives, it’s usually just designed for faculty development, to go and fix all those issues and challenges. And by approaching it from all these angles, it seems to be a really effective way of addressing some of the challenges that faculty face when doing this. One of the challenges, though, that faculty sometimes face when they introduce active learning is they go into a classroom where the seats are either bolted down, or are very rigid. I think part of your plan involves some type of infrastructure changes to support that. Could you talk a little bit about how classrooms have been redesigned as part of this process?

Leah: It’s such a key aspect of it, I have the anecdotal experience where I graduated from the Active Learning Summer Institute, went into a classroom ready to be highly engaged and interactive and set up have a highly mobile class design only to find that I was in stadium seating, with fixed seats and I thought, “Oh, no, what am I possibly going to do?” And so we have three foci, within the initiative. And we’ve mentioned the instructor development piece. So key, but as you said, it can’t stand alone without support for the other two. We have the student piece, we also have the classroom piece. And so our goal is to every… usually it has to be in the summer, when it’s much quieter… every summer, we just push for classroom enhancements across campus. And we have three criteria in mind that we see as not necessarily perfect for every single classroom situation, but the baseline for which we want to capture for an active learning classroom. And so the first is: does this classroom have mobile furniture? Are we able to move students around? Could an English professor have a roundtable discussion? And then within the 20-minute transition time, could my students go into that same classroom, which happened last semester, in a highly mobile classroom and be able to set it up into a simulation of roleplay thing for my international politics course? So do we have classrooms with that mobile furniture is the first thing. The second is, do we have student collaboration tools? And these do not have to be high tech. In fact, we ran the survey, and students and faculty said just give us more dry erase boards. We don’t need the fancy, fanciest of smart screens. Please just give us the basics. But let us work on a project huddled over together and be implementing and creating something new. And then finally, it’s just general space, do we have enough space that we are able to not only move the furniture around, but move people around in an effective way. And so 25 square feet per student is kind of our ultimate goal. And so we looked around and I was actually just running the numbers recently. And I think on campus we have, depending on how you measure our classrooms, between 400 to 600 spaces, it depends on if you count labs, and these other learning spaces, about 82% have at least two of these criteria. And so we’re getting there. We’ve made a real push and we’re trying to say: “Yes, instructors, please change but also know that we’re going to meet you with an environment that facilitates this kind of approach to learning.

Meg: Well, I also have to interject and say that the stance of the CTL is that active learning can happen in any classroom no matter the features. And so of course, like a good backwards design course or re-design institute, we always start out with the situational factors of a course. And that might include what’s the likelihood that you’re going to be in a fixed-seat auditorium or fixed table, but moveable chairs, and think about the choreography of that, the active learning techniques that you’ll adopt based on that. But in Leah’s example, in particular, if I remember correctly, Leah, you had a student in a wheelchair in your course the first semester after you redesigned your course. And when you were in the tiered auditorium, that meant that there was a specific area where the student in the wheelchair could sit and they couldn’t move through all of the case study roles that you had available. And so you were able to advocate for a different classroom, you obtained one, thank goodness, and everyone could move through a flat classroom instead. And so sometimes things crop up, even if you have planned to be in a fixed-seat auditorium, that you have to be able to modulate on the fly based on the characteristics of your students each semester too.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about whether or not your program has focused on specific programs or if it started with specific programs and its spread to different programs or what your strategy is for involving faculty across disciplines?

Leah: One of the most important parts that I really liked about this initiative is it’s not a mandate, we are not requiring any instructor to adopt active learning through a mandate. Instead, it really is a support, educate, encourage. And so we really have not been focused on okay, this unit by X year needs to have Y outcome in terms of an active learning goal. But in terms of strategy, what’s nice is we can start to see the people that walk in the door to find the active learning Summer Institute. And the high demand that first year was a nice little kind of bellwether that, okay, there is something going on here. When you have more people that can fit, and that’s consistently. The CTL needs to keep it kind of a quality curated experience with a cohort that goes through and has to do these really difficult re-education, understanding education differently, and then of course redesign. Such a dense set of tasks. So with this cohort like experience really requires so much of the faculty. What we started to notice, as we looked around and realized that instructors from different schools and colleges were coming to the Summer Institute, and we have seen that as the CTL has expanded beyond the Summer Institute and provided workshops, both standalone workshops, as well as a course redesign experience outside of the institute. We see hundreds of faculty each semester coming into the programming of active learning. And really we have, I believe, 19 schools and colleges that have undergraduate programs, and we have representatives from each that participate in this programming.

Rebecca: That’s wonderful.

John: What type of training do faculty receive as part of the institute and other training that you provide?

Meg: It was initially just that summer Course Redesign Institute. And what we started hearing from faculty as we would get these applications every year is the deadline would pass, and we’d hear from some faculty who would say things like, “Oh, I really, really want to do the institute. but summer is my field research season” or “I’m in the clinics in summer,” or “I have childcare duties that I can’t get away during that time of year.” And so there started to be some sort of advocacy for other on ramps into the programming, so that when we had the opportunity to stabilize the funding through the Quality Enhancement Plan for active learning initiatives, we started thinking about how can we make this program one that faculty could find the on ramp that is appropriate for their needs? Is it a faculty member who’s been using active learning for a long, long time and they really want to brush up on their skills in one particular area? And so that might look like engaging in a specific workshop on something like facilitating group discussions in a large lecture environment, or looking at student metacognition and how that plays into a particular student developmental level that they might teach in their courses? Or does somebody want to do the whole workshop series and Course Redesign Institute all the way through, but they can’t do it during the summer, or anywhere in between. And so what we ended up with is a workshop series, we have 12 standard workshops that we offer over time: four fundamental workshops, and eight special topics, workshops, and we rotate through those. We offer a couple of each every year. And then we have the active learning summer institute that happens every May. And then starting next academic year, over the course of the spring semester, we’ve designed a course redesign experience that takes the course redesign elements out of the active learning Summer Institute and decouples those elements from the active learning workshop components of the Course Redesign Institute that we currently have, so that faculty can upskill through the workshop series. And once they’ve taken eight of the 12 workshops, they can apply for the course redesign experience over the spring semester. Through that course redesign experience, they come and meet with us for a couple of hours every three weeks or so over the course of the spring semester. And the idea is that by the end of that course redesign experience and workshop series completion, they’ve recapitulated all of the experiences that you might have during the multi-week summer Course Redesign Institute. We also provide different communities for folks to engage with. We have several robust Faculty Learning Communities on campus. So we have multiple faculty learning communities related to active learning, one specifically coming up this year that Lea generously funded from the Active Learning Initiative budget for folks who are looking to engage in SOTL, Scholarship of Teaching and Learning, on their active learning endeavors, as well as specific faculty learning communities for the folks who have peer learning assistance in their courses, or who are engaged in the work after the course redesign experience, for the alumni of the Course Redesign Institute. We also have opportunities for faculty who are highly engaged and master teachers to serve as active learning mentors to their peer faculty. So we have three active learning mentors every year who work with the folks who’ve graduated from the course redesign institutes to give them opportunities for office hours with their faculty peers for micro mentoring sessions on specific topics of interest. They also create supportive resources. We have similar mentors for our PLA faculty, our peer learning assistant faculty. And for those who are serving in those mentoring roles, the Center for Teaching and Learning provides them with opportunities for additional coaching and support on instructional development, educational development, instructional coaching practices that they might bring to bear in those consultative sessions with their peer faculty, too. So the goal here is that we have some workshops that are entry level, some special topics, workshops, the course redesign experiences, some stuff for the master teachers, who are really wanting to be mentors and wanting to kind of serve as role models within their spheres of influence and for others who are moving through this programming, and we’re helping them build capacity in those areas, too. And then, of course, we have faculty on campus who have been working in active learning for years and years and years, and who published on active learning, who are real role models nationally. And so we really try our best to honor their expertise and bring them in to help frame the ways in which we deploy our programming, but also to serve as guest speakers and to engage with folks who are newer to active learning so that we can help provide opportunities for that cross-collaboration and multidisciplinary discussion.

Rebecca: I love the range of options you have available, and really how much you all have embraced the idea of flexibility for your teacher learners, just like we might want in our classrooms as well.

Meg: Yeah, yeah, that’s right.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about some of the active learning techniques that faculty have adopted after going through the institute or other variations?

Meg: Yeah, so as you’ve heard now, our summer institute is three weeks long. And so not only are we giving sessions on active learning, but we’re modeling active learning throughout. And so folks see a lot of different techniques that they might not have seen before. And they’re trying to identify which things that they’re seeing, which instructor moves they see, that align with the needs of their students, of the needs of their course, and their teaching persona as well. So as you might imagine, folks to leave the institute, select different things that are authentic to their practice and their situational factors for their course. So we go into the Institute, which actually begins today for summer 2024. We’re recording on the first day of the Active Learning Summer Institute. So we’re getting the anxious energy of meeting the new faculty. We start out on the first day of helping faculty appreciate that we don’t see active learning as a homogenous set of teaching activities, we’re not going to give them the recipe. We want them to discover the recipe that works for their course. So our QEP is sort of predicated on the notion that the extent to which students are actively engaged in thinking and applying what they’re learning is of far greater importance than the particular active learning instructional strategies used. And so to that end, the course redesign process helps faculty first hone in on the key enduring understandings and learning outcomes at the course level they want their students to leave with and identifying key learning bottlenecks or threshold concepts that they’ve identified that students tend to either have a tough time with, or they’ve really had to work hard to help students grasp that concept in order for them to move from novice to expert in that field. And then we encourage faculty to design their active learning interventions in alignment with those key features of the course so that active learning is more like the trunk of the tree rather than the ornaments on the tree. And our philosophy there is that when pressed for time, the ornaments are easy to cut, but if the act of learning is baked into the backbone or the trunk of the course, that’s just inherent to the identity of the course and it’s not something that’s going to be cut for time. And also you’re putting your energy into where the biggest impact is going to be for your learners..

Leah: If I may add, this was the revolutionary part of being a participant in the Active Learning Summer Institute. I thought I was going for the tips and the tricks, I’d get my little suitcase of ideas and I would just kind of put it all in there through the Institute, and then graduate and use all those as those ornaments as Meg: described it. And instead, I found myself looking at my course and realizing that the backwards design principle had me throwing a lot of content at my students, and not really aligning the activities in the course towards the student learning outcomes. Once I was able to do that hard work, then the excitement of “Ooh, okay, well, which tips and tricks, which kind of active learning engaging styles would be most useful for this.” And that’s just a really exciting way to do it as an instructor.

John: Most instructors, as they come through their educational process, have not been exposed, particularly not in graduate school, to active learning techniques. How do you address issues of faculty resistance to completely changing the way in which they’re approaching the design of their classes.

Leah: It takes a while, [LAUGHTER] having been one of the resistant faculty, I’ll speak to it from this perspective, I think Meg: referenced the former colleague Colleen, and she was my mentor going through this institute. And I remember her asking me to write all the content that I felt was so essential to get the students to to learn throughout the semester, and I distinctly remember this moment where she said, “Okay, let’s put that in an envelope, all that stuff that you just wrote down, we’re just going to put it in an envelope, and we’re just going to set it over here, it’s still very much matters, don’t worry, it’s not going away. It’s all still important.” And then she said, “Let’s really think about the future student. Who are you teaching? What would be a success?” And I think that’s a moment where I could take a deep breath, as a faculty. At first, it was scary and fearful. But it’s a moment for the first time you take a deep breath and go, if I miss a case in international law, they are still going to thrive in this world. I’m focusing on what skills they actually need to thrive in this future career. And so it’s not about that specific case, it’s about the skills. And once I was able to realign that, and it’s so important to be sitting in a cohort, it’s not an isolating experience, you’re sitting in a cohort with other people doing the same reformulating of their whole profession, with mentors from the CTL, helping and encouraging them. Without that sort of ecosystem, it would be a very lonely and harder… just slow… process, maybe, even if you are willing to change. So I think the quality of that instructional development experience within the CTL cannot be replicated. And then I hope the other two kind of prongs of the initiative, once they leave the institute, they’ll still have the mentorship for the next year with CTL and with the faculty mentors. They then can leave and say: “We have the classroom engagement things.” We are also trying to change the environment to help you and we want your feedback. We are always asking those active learning instructors, what can we do differently within these classrooms? And then also the students… we’re engaging the students. So you’re going to walk into class, and they’re going to know what you’re trying to do, and that it’s recognized as a really good thing to do across campus. So it’s the ecosystem that will create more empathy and support and therefore reduce the resistance.

Meg: Yeah, so Leah mentioned, this idea of you have this mentor that exists for the year after the institute. And I don’t know that we explained that. That’s a pretty unique feature of our Course Redesign Institute. And it comes somewhat from our Center for Teaching and Learning has quite a bit of tradition around investment in longitudinal cohort-based programming. So we have a lot of one-year, two-year, multi-month cohorted faculty development experiences, because we find that that interdisciplinary conversation is so helpful for helping folks build connections and shared disciplinary content, and teaching practices with one another in ways that proliferate those great ideas across campus and seed innovation. And as we thought about the ways that our faculty fellows…we call them Faculty Fellows Programs at UGA… ways that our faculty fellows programs were successful, were in that sort of longitudinal support that was available. And we wanted to replicate that as best possible with our Course Redesign Institute. And when we thought about the outcomes of our institute, and how we wanted people to leave the institute, be prepared to deploy a redesigned course in the coming academic year. And we started thinking about what that experiences like as a teacher, and we thought, “Gosh, people are going to leave the institute, be all excited, go back to their department, where they might be one of few who’s engaging in this sort of robust active learning commitment, especially in the early years of the institute.” How can we support them in being successful when they go into their first class and leave the class and go: “Ooh, that didn’t feel like it usually felt I wonder if it went well?” or they do their first robust activity and maybe it doesn’t go quite as they were expecting? How can we be there for them in those moments? So as folks leave our Course Redesign Institute, they’re each paired with a mentor from the CTL. And that mentor is their touch point for the year following the institute, so that when they have that class session that throws them for a loop or they get some feedback from students, that they’re not quite sure how they’re To respond to it, they have a touch point that they can go to. And it’s someone who knows their course intimately, who’s worked with them through the redesign process, is aware of the ways in which their course has changed, and is there to provide them with that support. And also that mentor is the person who performs… we call them mid-semester formative evaluations… but at other CTLs they’re called small group instructional diagnoses. So at the midpoint of their course, someone from the CTL comes in and talks with their students to focus group them, to collect some feedback on how the course is going so far, and then works with the faculty member at closing the loop on that feedback to help students appreciate that they are such an important component of the redesign process too, because the instructor is engaging in this two-way exchange of information with the students both on the content and on the operational organization of the course and refining the course in response to that feedback. So we want the students to appreciate that their experience and the way that they’re learning and what they think could be happening to support their learning even better, how that could be incorporated into the course as it continues.

Rebecca: I really love the depth of the culture change components that are built into this initiative, from feeling like you’re part of something bigger, the fact that it’s voluntary, your support structures, it’s holistic, both Academic Affairs and Student Affairs, there’s opportunities for feedback loops. Change can be really difficult, but when you’re a part of that bigger network, it can be helpful. The timing of this was really interesting when it kicked off…so, a couple years before COVID, so you had some time to establish the roots, and then COVID erupts, AI erupts, there’s more first-gen students, we’ve got a lot going on, and there’s a lot of change happening. How do you help your faculty avoid burnout with so much change and maintain this momentum?

Meg: Yeah, great question. You’re taking me right back to the pandemic and that experience of everyone just doing the best emergency remote teaching you could do. And one of the things that I remember from that period is faculty who had gone through the Active Learning Summer Institute mentioning that they were so glad that they’d gone through the institute because it made pandemic teaching easier. They had recently conceptualized of their course learning outcomes that identified the most important content that they wanted to prioritize, they had a sense of some lesson plans for how to deploy these things. And even though the institute happens in person, because of the way we were talking about how you would make adjustment to different things in different settings, they could more easily conceptualize of how to engage online or asynchronously with students using active learning principles. So we had this early indication that the folks who’d experienced the course redesign process felt better prepared for emergency remote teaching and pivoting quickly. We also found active learning to be perfectly timed as an initiative as a response to post-pandemic disengagement. So when students were coming back into the classroom and members of our community were craving that deep intellectual engagement and community with one another, but then in some instances, were a little bit disappointed when it didn’t materialize in the ways that it might have before the pandemic, we found that faculty were coming to the institute, saying, “This is something that I’m hoping can meet this need that I have to engage students in rich conversation or to engage students in deep intellectual engagement in this learning community, and how can I address this through active learning?” And also, we’re lucky to have a large number of faculty champions for active learning on campus, folks who’ve been using active learning for a while, and in various departments across the institution, not just in specific pockets. And so they’re serving as role models and mentors to the faculty in their unit. And a message that those faculty champions were helping us reinforce is that teaching with active learning is a joyful way to teach. And so oftentimes, when these faculty champions, these mentors, were talking to folks who were saying things like “post-pandemic teaching is a little bit disappointing,” or “I’m feeling a little bit burned out because of everything that we’ve experienced through the pandemic, and through these various disruptions to higher education.” When their mentors were telling them, “Have you considered bringing some joy into your classroom and making teaching a more joyful experience for you and for your students? And guess what? You can do that through active learning. Let me tell you how I brought joy into my classroom through active learning.” We would see folks come to us and say, “I’m just really looking for some rejuvenation and some revitalization, and I’ve seen my colleagues just transition their course through active learning in a way that they’re just skipping down the hall after they leave their class, and I want that feeling. So I’m hoping that this will be that experience for me.” And so we had people coming to us asking for that, and we hoped that would be the case. And then I’ll just add that like many higher education institutions right now we’re in the midst of an evaluation of teaching culture change, too. And so we’re trying to adopt a more what we’re calling a three-voice culture of teaching evaluations that’s relying upon your individual reflection on your teaching some data from your students and the interpretation and contextualization of that data, as well as peer observation of teaching data and bringing that all together as sort of like triangulated data to provide some insights on our teaching, and then respond to that and have like a assessment loop on this. And so it’s this idea of a culture of continuous improvement with teaching where we’re able to proliferate this message of: “You’re not an award winning teacher necessarily on your first day of teaching, but this is a set of skills that you can develop over time. And also, you’re never done developing it.” And so this culture is helping to amplify the message that taking part in educational development is not just an expected part of being a teacher, but it’s an opportunity to continue your culture of continued mastery.

John: So one of the ways in which this is spread has been from faculty to faculty. One of the things I’ve been noticing a lot on my campus is that it also sometimes spreads from students to faculty. As more and more faculty move from faculty-centered teaching to student-centered teaching, students become a little bit more vocal sometimes about expressing what works for them and that will often result in faculty considering using new techniques that their students have recommended to them. Has that been happening as well at your institution?

Leah: That’s why we wanted to capitalize on this proactively and have channels of growth. And so again, we have little areas in which we have students really playing that intentional role. So rather than maybe a complaining, “I went into this class and I didn’t like it” kind of a customer satisfaction problem area, we really want to make sure it’s more that students, first of all, are trained in the active learning pedagogy. So my active learning ambassadors, as they are chosen, we then say, “Okay, here’s the wizard behind the curtain friends, come join us [LAUGHTER] and see what’s going on behind these intentional classrooms that you really enjoy and don’t quite know why you like it so much.” So we bring them into the understanding of what instructors are doing when they’re in an active learning classroom and why. And then we give them opportunities to then go and front face and tell other faculty, “this is what an active learning classroom feels like for a student.” This is why one of my favorite moments… we have, again, as I mentioned, an active learning summit every year in February, and there was an entire breakout session run by students who were peer learning assistants and active learning ambassadors. And they were talking about the study skills that they have seen through their training, or through their classes that really work in their discipline that they use outside of the classroom to kind of empower themselves to study and to learn. And what was wonderful is that the front of the room were students in a panel and most of the room or faculty and I found that the question and answer period, the instructors would raise their hand and say, “Okay, well, but I’m not in that discipline, but I’m thinking about bringing this into my class in X way, is this something that you would find effective?” And they were asking the students about designing their course to be student centered. And that’s when I think if we put those students that know what is going on, so it’s not a complaint section, it is more a reframing and a sharing out of we know what you’re trying to do and we really appreciate it, and here’s how it works really well, for us. It just starts to kind of change that conversation from being yet another instructor versus student dynamic, which I think we have plenty of those around campuses at any given time to becoming an instructor and student experience.

Rebecca: Having student ambassadors and student voices celebrating this work, is certainly a testament to the success of this work. And you’ve also mentioned some other moments of assessment. Can you talk a little bit about how you’re assessing this initiative?

Leah: There is a rich assessment team who is actually part of the larger Active Learning Initiative. And so I hope I do justice to their very nuanced framework that they have. We have macro level, mezzo level, and micro level indicators that we are trying to capture. At the most macro level demand is one of the earliest indicators of success for us. Are people applying to the Summer Institute? Are ambassadors applying for the program? How many peer learning assistants apply and how many instructors want them, just really kind of those basic quantifiable amounts for demand. And then we also are attempting to capture survey data across the university. We stop the students and say: “We don’t know if you’ve interacted with active learning in the classroom or not, we’re not selecting a given class, we’re just wondering what you would say if you observe a cultural change going on.” So we’re also trying to get these larger macro level indicators. Then at the mezzo level, we’re getting into those lifelong learning dispositions that Meg: referenced earlier, the curiosity, the initiative, the reflection and connection. We have artifacts that we pull from courses that have an instructor who’s either going through all the Active Learning Summer Institute, or who has gone through it already, so we do a pre- and post-analysis. And we have faculty scorers, who can go through these artifacts to see if we are capturing if the artifacts include a prompt about curiosity or a prompt about initiative. And then we are attempting to measure, and we’re working on different ways to do that, but measure if we’re seeing growth over time in these lifelong learning dispositions, and then finally, at kind of the micro level, we’re making sure that the disciplinary knowledge is being enhanced within this that are focused on active learning techniques. One thing we have yet to mention is yet another part of our holistic umbrella. This is why the programming is so large, but we have these active learning change grants. And this felt really good to hear for me as an instructor who went through the institute. And then it was about five years later that the next person in my department went through the institute. What these change grants do is it really allows those who go to the institute to go back to their department or their unit and say, “What if we change several classes at a time through some sort of infusion of deep learning and the CTO will support us, the assessment team will help us assess whether we’re doing what we’re saying we’re doing.” And so on this micro level, the assessment team is really starting to capture some pretty cool indicators, that when you kind of create a unit change, there’s a cascading norm it’s called in international affairs, where you change enough of the unit and enough of the actors in a given scenario, you can then really see that norm start to shift in a unit. And so at each of these levels we’re finding it’s still early. So we’re not saying “It’s a win, close up shop,” [LAUGHTER] but we are finding really robust indicators of early success.

John: Well, you’ve given us and our listeners a lot to think about, and it sounds like a model program that could be copied very productively at other institutions. But we always end by asking: “What’s next?”

Meg: We’ve started to hear from folks that are interested in proliferating initiatives. So, of course, we welcome conversations with folks who are interested in hearing about some of the elements of the program and brainstorming ways to deploy these on other campuses, lessons learned along the way, etc. I mentioned earlier that as folks crave these multiple on ramps, we’re deploying these additional on ramps over time. So starting in the fall, we’ve designed some of our foundational active learning workshops, we’ve taken those and created asynchronous online versions of those workshops that are going to be hosted in our learning management system. So they’ll be available on demand. So if a faculty member doesn’t happen to be available at the time that we’ve offered that workshop this semester, they can still engage, especially in those foundational workshops. And then the spring semester course redesign experience version of our Course Redesign Institute will be deploying for the first time in spring 2025. We’re really excited about that as well.

Leah: I would also say for your listeners, if there is an interest in kind of seeing what we’re up to and helping participate in engaging with this discussion, traditionally the active learning summit has been really focused on UGA community for the first two years, but in the third year, so February 2025, we are going to open up the summit to visitors and encourage them to be a part of these breakout sessions or propose different ideas that they would like to talk about. I know Rebecca mentioned earlier, the challenges of AI, we’re going to try to have a breakout session, though, that focuses on this: active learning best practices in the age of such change. We’ll send out a call for applications in the fall, and we’d love to have anybody who’s interested in learning more, I think it will be Thursday, February 27, and Friday, February 28, on UGA campus, and we welcome all those who are interested in attending.

Rebecca: That’s great. Thank you so much for joining us. There’s so much to think about and so much exciting work that you’ve all done.

Leah: Thank you.

Meg: Thank you so much for having us.

John: Thank you and we look forward to more conversations in the future.

Meg: Absolutely. Anytime.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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330. Educational Developers’ Praxis

Teaching centers typically have a core group of faculty that actively engage in professional development while others are rarely seen. In this episode, Constanza Bartholomae and Terri Hasseler join us to discuss strategies they use to expand participation and build faculty community. Constanza is the Associate Director of Teaching Support and Terri is the Director of the Center of Teaching Excellence and Professor of History, Literature and the Arts at Bryant University.

Show Notes

  • Center for Teaching Excellence at Bryant University
  • Smith, M. (1994). Local education: Community, conversation, praxis. McGraw-Hill Education (UK).
  • Jeffs, T., & Smith, M. K. (2021). The education of informal educators. Education Sciences, 11(9), 488.
  • Thackara, J. (2006). In the bubble: Designing in a complex world. MIT press.
  • De Bono, E. (2014). Lateral thinking: An introduction. Random House.
  • De Bono, E. (1990). Lateral thinking: a textbook of creativity. Penguin UK.
  • Nunn, L. M. (2018). 33 simple strategies for faculty: a week-by-week resource for teaching first-year and first-generation students. Rutgers University Press.
  • Norell, Liz (2023). Supporting Neurodiverse Students and Faculty. Tea for Teaching podcast. Episode 313. November 1. (This episode discusses “podcasts and puzzles”)
  • Cavanagh, S. R. (2023). Mind over Monsters: Supporting Youth Mental Health with Compassionate Challenge. Beacon Press.
  • Hochschild, A. R. (2022). The managed heart. In Working in America (pp. 40-48). Routledge.

Transcript

John: Teaching centers typically have a core group of faculty that actively engage in professional development while others are rarely seen. In this episode, we discuss strategies used at one teaching center to expand participation and build faculty community.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guests today are Constanza Bartholomae and Terri Hasseler. Constanza is the Associate Director of Teaching Support and Terri is the Director of the Center of Teaching Excellence and Professor of History, Literature and the Arts at Bryant University. Welcome Constanza and Terri.

Terri: Thank you.

John: It’s nice to talk to you again. I met both of you at the POD conference a few months ago, and that’s when we talked about you coming on the podcast. Thank you for joining us. Our teas today are:

Terri: Well, I’ll go first. As Constanza will tell you, I never have less than three beverages with me at any point in time. [LAUGHTER] So, I have a caramel macchiato, a diet Coke, and a chai.

Constanza: And I have a tea. I’m drinking a Mighty Leaf African nectar tea in the mug I have yet to earn. It’s a Tea for Teaching mug that John so generously gifted us at the conference. And so I’m working to earn it today. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: Oh, we’re definitely glad that you’re here. I have cardamom cinnamon tea.

John: That’s a new one.

Rebecca: I’m trying to cut down on the caffeination.

John: So no more of that harsh tea?

Rebecca: Oh no, I will definitely drink some of that. [LAUGHTER] I’m not giving it up. I said cut down. [LAUGHTER]

John: And for the first time ever, I am drinking water in a Tea for Teaching mug, because I didn’t have time to get tea between my class and this recording session.

Rebecca: Is it warm water?

John: It is cold water, because if I could have heated up water, I would have put you a tea bag in it.

Rebecca: Well, it’s the start of tea. [LAUGHTER]

Terri: That’s so sad.

John: It is. It’s been one of those days, and so we’ll just leave it at that.

Rebecca: So we invited you here today to discuss your work as educational developers at Bryant University. Can you describe your roles and the role of the center?

Constanza: Sure. So I’ll go first. I’m the Associate Director of Teaching Support. And that means I get to spend a lot of time with our faculty. I work one-on-one with faculty in consults ranging from working on specific activities that they might need some additional support on to talking about overarching course goals or objectives, or perhaps speaking about pedagogy. And also I work with faculty in groups, we might be talking about a common theme or we might have unstructured get togethers and meetings. And that’s the best part about my job is meeting with faculty, and I really love what I do. I’ll pass it over to Terri.

Terri: Thank you. I use she/her pronouns and I am the Director of the Center for Teaching Excellence and Professor in the Department of Literature and History in the Arts. As you noted a moment ago, I started at Bryant University where I am now almost 30 years in the mid 90s and I moved through the ranks of the faculty. I served as a department chair a number of years ago for a department in English Cultural Studies, and most recently served as the Associate Dean for the College of Arts and Sciences. My earliest research actually 30 years ago started in writing centers and pedagogy and I quickly moved into inclusion and social justice frameworks for teaching and learning. And I just moved into the Director of the Center for Teaching Excellence about five, six months ago. So I am very excited about this work, and the inclusion of the work that I’ve been doing in the scholarship of teaching and learning, and training and instruction and pedagogy.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about the work that your center does?

Terri: Sure., so one of the things that we’re doing in terms of the philosophy of our work and a shout out to our educational technology person, Mary Boehmer and our wonderful faculty fellows. The work we do in the center really focuses on the concept of praxis that Mark Smith talks about, which is that idea of informed committed action. And when we talk about informed, we’re talking about what is it we know? We try to stay research- and evidence-based. We look at the theories and the current information that is out on any subject that we’re working with. And then the commitment, the committed, what we do and why we do it. The ethics… what’s the ethical framework for the work that we do? And then the action is: how do we do that work. And we look at, in the center right now, focusing on issues of creativity, inclusive communities, and the critical notion of kindness. These three concepts bring together student-centered approaches through a teaching-centered lens. We like that kind of inward and outward approach to the work we’re doing. And we are working to build more authentic relationships with teaching rather than performative teaching. And my job in that role is to run a lot of the different programs, work with a number of different partners on campus, and building out our strategic plan and then initiating it.

John: In an earlier conversation, there was some discussion of the Creativity Fellows Program. Could you tell us a little bit about that program, how it works, what its philosophy is and what its purpose is?

Terri: Sure, thank you. We’re very excited to talk about the creativity fellows. This is a program I started a number of years ago it was supported by Robert Shea who was our Director of our Center for Teaching and Learning at the time. Bob is now the Provost at Curry College. The work that we did In that is it was a seminar approach, a one-year seminar devoted to nurturing faculty members and their creative practices. The long-term goal is to fundamentally transform both the teaching practices and the educational philosophies. The program draws from faculty across all the institution, the different schools and programs on the campus. And one of the things that we’re finding is that there are heavy expectations on faculty, they’re expected to be creative… be more creative, and faculty are often at a loss for that. Many feel that they themselves are not creative. They’re trained in critical thinking and content providing, and they often have not been given the skills or the support to pursue what creativity looks like. We’ve also tried to think of creativity in contrast with innovation, innovation tends to be more product oriented, solution oriented: what are the viable solutions? What are the ideas, the methods, the products that one can produce? We’re much more interested in process when we work with faculty. So the premise of the seminar is that we start with the mindset. If faculty do not have an active creative practice, it’s impossible to model and to speak to creativity in authentic ways with students. So the seminar focuses on providing spaces to let faculty fellows develop a creative practice. And we are very literal about this. We talk about creative artistic practices, we do collage, hand papermaking, bookbinding, improv, ceramics, we bring in visiting artists, we have one-on-one creative mentoring, sketching, and we build a community of practice, where we focus on the inefficiency of creativity and learning. John Thackara talks about that in his book In the Bubble, says that creating and learning human beings are highly inefficient. So we make a space where we can be inefficient with each other. And that’s not a space that we create very often in academic settings, because we’re always very product oriented. So again, the emphasis was not on the final products, but the purpose was just to be in the seminar. And we do end with a final installation at the end of the seminar each year, we end with a process of creativity where faculty present their objects that they created throughout the time. And the last thing I will say, too, is what are some of the things that result from this… the work is very risky for faculty, many of them have never made art, or something creative. Many of them probably have not done art since high school or elementary school, or perhaps they have some secret creative practice that they haven’t shared in some time. So this is anxiety provoking, but also very exciting. And we focus on three different things. One, trust the process. We talk about this as purposelessness. Of course, it’s deeply purposeful. The work we’re doing is deeply purposeful, but the focus is on purposelessness, not publication, and in our syllabus we say to them, what if you were given space to play, time to think about it, and a cohort of colleagues to encourage you? What if you were able to participate in activities within which your very presence was the purpose? What if you could play with the distractions to see what they yield rather than immediately aiming for some objective? The second thing we do is we create a room and a space to play and some playmates to play with and do lots of kind of lower-stakes activities with the faculty. One of the first activities we do is we pull them together, and we give them modeling clay. And we say, “create an animal out of this modeling clay that represents your relationship with creativity.” Some might make a cat because they’re curious or a dragon because they hoard creative things, or whatever. And then we talk about why they created what they created. And then we put these animals in a habitat. And we say, “Now you’re all going to be working together with each other, what would be the habitat that would include all these animals?” And they might do something like a garden, or an amusement park, but it gets them immediately getting out of the self consciousness of creating, which we know is also something that is very real for our students. The final part I would talk about is the third tenet that we work with is the fear and its relationship with failure. Risk-taking is a primary part of creative thinking. And the biggest risk is taking these risks in front of colleagues. Our students do this all the time. We don’t. We’re very much experts in our fields. We don’t take beginner learning experiences and demonstrate them in front of our colleagues. And this is one of the things that we do with this activity.

John: As an economist, one of the things that struck me was your comment about inefficiency. Economists focus on ways in which people can use resources more efficiently to get more productive use of their time. So could you explain that inefficiency part of it?

Terri: Yes, no problem. I think that for faculty, a lot of the focus is on production and efficiency and sort of demonstrating to the institution that I published this number of papers, I’ve demonstrated that I know these certain things, I can teach these objects and these content principles. But as an artist myself as well, art is not very efficient, it’s often messy, you have to move between different projects, you have to make lots of mistakes, lots and lots of mistakes, and enjoy the mistakes and see what results from them. And it really takes a while to get faculty comfortable with that idea of being inefficient. There’s a reality to inefficiency too, we’ve got limited time, nobody has time to be inefficient. And so this process allows people to actually be able to put something down as I was a part of this group, and I was given opportunity to be inefficient.

Rebecca: How do you recruit for this program, or who do you tend to attract? Because if folks know that they’re risk taking, but they’re averse to risk taking, [LAUGHTER] then sometimes the people that we might hope really appreciate a process don’t always get included. So how do you nudge people to get involved?

Terri: So we’ve had three iterations. And we hope to have our fourth iteration soon. And we’ve had sort of different models. The first two models, we had small groups of faculty, eight in the first one, 12 in the second one, and then the third model, we did more a series of workshops across campus. And this was supported by two other faculty members who are part of the creativity fellows, Maura Dowling in Finance and Sandra Enos, who has since retired, but was in Sociology. And people are actually very interested in the past. We have had a carrot approach where we do have some perks attached to it that make people interested. But I think also we sell it as a place where you get to play and have some fun with some colleagues.

John: And I think all faculty should experience that process of stretching themselves a little bit, of being uncomfortable, to remind them of what it was like to be a student. So I can see the benefits of that.

Rebecca: I thought I almost saw the word play [LAUGHTER] come out of your mouth, but it didn’t actually come out.

John: I’m an economist.[LAUGHTER] We don’t play, we do serious work. [LAUGHTER] How have faculty reacted to this program?

Terri: So there’s a lot of different reactions… again, that notion of beginner learning experiences, that is really valuable. So people remember what it was like to sit down and do something for the first time. And then I also think it’s important for threshold concepts. When we’ve crossed over the threshold, and we know what is transformative about our discipline, we forget that other people haven’t crossed over that threshold. And this experience reminds them “Oh, yeah, there are things about my discipline that I take for granted that other people who are new to it may not understand.” We spend a lot of time with lateral thinking, Edward de Bono’s work about indirect approaches. So an economist who’s doing ceramics is definitely going to be thinking about this in a very different way. For faculty, they reported greater re-engagement with new learner experiences, a recommitment to a creative practice that they may have had in the past. That was actually a big thing that we noted. They enjoyed a like-minded group of colleagues that they were working with. And also, ironically, even though the focus was on purposelessness, this was probably one of the more traditionally purposeful activities because it produced a significant amount of scholarly research, new courses, new programs, conference work, so a lot came out of that. For the institution, it produced a commencement award in creative expression. Faculty instituted new courses, new programs. And then for students… this was the fun part…. so students also get to see what the faculty produced at a pop-up gallery, pop-up installation that we do, and the students talked about two things that they found were really moving to them about the experience. And they talked about how important it was to see faculty move outside of their comfort zone. One student said, “I found this valuable because it shows that these people who are experts in their fields are willing to take risks. I am sure doing these projects that it felt a little unnatural and it was interesting to see how they dealt with that and created something to be proud of.” And the second thing is that humanizing of faculty, they really saw faculty as human beings. This one is kind of cute. I just love this comment. A student said, “It was interesting to see professors doing the same things we are doing in class, and how proud they were of their work.”

Rebecca: One of the things I love doing is taking classes and learning new things, for some of those exact reasons: feeling vulnerable, remembering what it feels like to be a beginner, etc. You mentioned as you were laying out some of the things that your does, does your role in building community. We know that faculty often work in their own silos and sometimes feel like they’re facing their own unique challenges. But what strategies have you used to break down some of these silos and bring faculty together across campus?

Constanza: Yeah, that’s such an interesting question. And it’s so funny because we don’t often think of teaching as being an isolating practice. But really, if you’re teaching in a classroom, unless you’re co-teaching with someone else, or you’re being observed, you’re the only instructor in the room. So if something goes wrong in the classroom, you only have yourself to consult with in that very moment. And if you’re working through something, the best place that you can go to if your campus has one is a teaching center. Luckily ours does. Thank goodness, [LAUGHTER] because I love having a job. [LAUGHTER] But we find ourselves working with faculty to build these spaces for community because oftentimes, as an instructor myself, I’m not taking the time to build reflection and metacognitive practices into my own routine of teaching. So my teaching routine is “Okay, let me build my lesson plan. Let me do my grading. Let me meet with students for office hours.” But I’m not consciously thinking, “How can I reflect on my teaching?” Or “Where can I meet with other people to discuss this?” That’s our role of the teaching center. And so our job is to help support faculty in forming those connections and to build space for them to share their experiences. Sometimes we might coordinate a lunch to discuss a certain topic or invite one of our faculty to pose a question or discuss a certain problem that they’re facing. Some of the times we draw from our own teaching experiences to give examples of how we might approach a situation or some of the teaching wins that we’ve had or some of the teaching struggles that we’ve faced. Some topics that we’ve more recently covered are first-year teaching techniques, supporting first-generation students, managing student disruptions, course redesign, and Universal Design for Learning. But really, if faculty members come to us and they’re interested in a certain subject area, we’re more than happy to look into it if we’re not familiar with it ourselves, and then come back and design something for them.

John: You mentioned a first-year teaching techniques course to prepare faculty to teach first-year students, and in an earlier conversation, you mentioned that this was something you were hoping to spread throughout the entire faculty. Could you tell us a little bit about what the focus of that class is?

Constanza: Yeah, I got a lot of questions about this at POD actually, because this is something that a lot of universities are hoping to teach about, really. But I was having a conversation with our Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, Dr. Veronica McComb, and we were casually talking, as one does, with the Dean over coffee. And she was saying it would be really great if we could offer something that would highlight some of today’s students’ challenges and some teaching techniques that would really complement their learning. And I looked at her, and she has a faculty development background, and I said, “Well, do you want me to build a course?” And she said, “Yeah, I’d love it.” And so the idea unfolded, and I began to design our first-year teaching techniques course. It’s a six-week course, which ends up with faculty creating new implementations into their own courses. And although it’s geared towards first-year students, it really applies to all students. So we’ve had two cohorts of faculty go through it already. Our third cohort is about to launch, there are five modules, and they talk about a variety of teaching techniques, some of which faculty may have seen before and may already use but not know that they’re actually evidence based, and some of which are entirely brand new. We use a variety of mediums. So they get to listen to some Tea for Teaching podcast episodes, as well as some other podcast episodes. They get to read some articles. And then we also all read Lisa Nunn’s, 33 simple strategies for faculty: a week-by-week resource for teaching first-year and first-generation students, which is really great, because there are anecdotes within that book from first year and first-gen students themselves with quotes of their thoughts and struggles and comments. And so it’s real and extremely relatable. And it gets our faculty thinking about how they’re delivering content or how they’re approaching students in an entirely different way. And so in the course, we’ve laughed together, we’ve cried together, we’ve met on Zoom, we’ve met in person, and folks get to know other faculty from different disciplines across campus. We’ve had folks who have just started teaching for the first time, we’ve had folks who have been teaching for a number of years at Bryant, folks who are new to Bryant. So it’s a really great way to build community. And I’m glad that you asked about it. But it’s also really helpful and a great way to show those who have been teaching for a really long time, especially, that it’s always really great to reflect upon their teaching practice and to think about how they can reinvigorate that practice and enhance it to fit the needs of today’s students.

Rebecca: One of the other programs that you’ve mentioned is the Course Redesign Institute. Can you talk a little bit about how this program is structured, when in the year it happens, and how many faculty participate?

Terri: Sure, this is something we’re very excited about that we just started this year. It was actually the idea of one of our faculty fellows, and we modeled it on our really wonderful writers’ retreat that we’ve had for a number of years on campus and big shout out to our colleagues in the Krupp library and the Academic Center for Excellence that we work with in planning that. The writers’ retreat is really just: show up, do your writing, we’ll feed you. [LAUGHTER] And we’ll be around to help you if you have questions. And we love that idea, and we love that structure. So what we did is we built into the structure a series of content experts. We brought in people with expertise and accessibility, course design, and open educational resources, and virtual reality and pedagogy, instructional technology, syllabus statements and design. And we brought everyone together in a space in the library. And we essentially just let people do their thing. So we structured it with: buy our meals, we structured it by the times we got together with our meals to be in community. We did not run any sessions in training. We did not have any required events other than strong encouragement to join together during the five meals that we shared together over our time together. And it gave people a chance to sit down and in real time reach out to the people who could help them with questions they were having in the moment. So a group of three or four math faculty, for instance, in our last retreat, were working together. And they would come across something as they were working, they’d say “We have an accessibility question.” They could go right to the person and ask that question. “Oh, we’d like to institute open educational resource in this,” they could go right to that person and ask them. And it was a very productive time, people love being fed. They love being able to just show up and do their work and have immediate response to the questions that they have. Our goal was to do this once a year, but it was so popular, we intend to do it in the fall and the spring, and keep this sort of a very faculty-centered event where they get access to the resources they need right away in real time.

Rebecca: I love the idea of having the meals to bring people together, because inevitably, that probably leads to conversations about the courses they’re all redesigning.

Terri: Absolutely. We’ve had wonderful conversations.

John: I believe you also do some things that bring faculty together a bit more informally. Could you talk about some of the ways that you do that?

Constanza: Well, as Terri has mentioned, we love food. So if there’s a way that we can bring folks together over a hot beverage or a meal, because we’re in New England after all, and as we were joking about earlier, the winters are rough, we’ll do that. So as we’re heading back during the first week of classes, we’ll have a welcome back lunch for faculty. But apart from that, folks will joke, I’ll sit in my office sometimes, but sometimes I’ll also go over to the faculty and staff cafe and I’ll sit over there and faculty will pass through and remember that they have a question for me, or they’ll see me and they’ll sit down and we’ll chat. And so that will be a way to informally catch folks, and remind them to come and visit us or perhaps chat with them about an idea that they have. And if I’m lucky, that’ll turn into a SOTL article or something like that. So I love to catch people in that way. It’s amazing how many questions folks suddenly remember that they have just by seeing my face, and it saves them from sending an email. But also, the more I get to know faculty on campus, the more I understand where their interests lie. And so if there’s a faculty member who has a question, and I know that there’s another faculty member who might have experience with that question and might be able to answer it, I might reach out via email and introduce them. In fact, I’m notorious for doing so. So it’s a way for them to get to know each other as well, because oftentimes, faculty will meet other faculty members in their department, but they may not necessarily know other faculty in other areas. So those are some of the ways that we informally network. Our faculty fellows allow for another space where faculty can get together and meet folks that are not within their discipline. And really any open session that we have in the Center for Teaching Excellence is another way for folks to get to know other faculty who are interested in pedagogy. I love Liz Norrel’s idea that she mentioned on your podcast a few weeks ago about doing podcasts and puzzles. And so shout out to her for that one because I really want to adopt that for our center as well.

Rebecca: Since the pandemic, we’ve dealt with a lot of issues related to student disengagement and increased reports of students dealing with mental health challenges and things like this, and this has really increased the emotional labor of faculty. Sarah Rose Cavanaugh in Mind over Monsters argues for a practice of “compassionate challenge.” How do you address the challenges that faculty are facing in finding a good balance between compassion and challenge?

Terri: So one of the things that we look at… and this is a really important question that everybody is navigating, so thank you for that question… one of the things that we look at is the concept of kindness. It’s one of our three principles. And there is a bit of a problem around kindness as a term, often wrongly defined as doing everything you can to help someone to the point where you start doing the thing that they needed to do in the first place. And this creates learned helplessness, it also can become manipulative. For those of us who are doing this kindness and compassion at work, it can become exhausting and frustrating. As educational developers, we end up doing all the work rather than teaching someone how to do it for themselves. And that can be really hard. So we’ve talked a lot about compassion fatigue, and what happens when working with students who have mental health challenges, as you mentioned, where we start to take on the experiences of the students, and sometimes not appropriately, because there are professionals who should be working in these areas, and we want to support students. So how do we do that effectively, but also make sure our students are getting the best care they can from the professionals who are there to do that work? So we have students who are disengaged, alienated, apathetic, worry about belonging, but we also have faculty who are disengaged, have burnout, have compassion fatigue, wonder about whether they belong to an institution that has changed so dramatically in such a short period of time that it makes sense anymore. The conversation about not being a great resignation, but a great disengagement that faculty are experiencing. And I think that a couple of the issues that we’ve been looking at is that performative care, the way that so much is required of us now as faculty and as educational developers to be caring, that the caring becomes a performance rather than something authentic. And, of course, this is a use of Arlie Russell Hochschild’s work on emotional labor, where you start becoming detached and alienated from that labor, because it’s taken over your identity, that you no longer authentically feel connected to that emotional labor. And when we’re dealing with so much endless change, we have to be careful of that boundary between compassion and challenge.

Constanza: Yes, and this is something that we’ve talked about in terms of layers, because if the students are feeling this way, it’s impacting the faculty. And then if the faculty are feeling this way, it’s impacting us as educational developers. And Terri knows the story, but it really hit me when I was at a conference with Terri last year. I’ve always sort of wondered, as one does, how did I end up in faculty development? What’s my real story if someone were to ask, and one of my mentors in graduate school, unfortunately, ended up taking their own life, because they felt as if they didn’t belong, and really, really suffered. And we’ve seen in the news recently, as well, that that is a topic right now that we’re grappling with in higher education too. So all of this to say that, as educational developers, we are seeing faculty being perhaps more vulnerable than ever coming to us with greater challenges than they perhaps have ever come to us with before. And we’re also feeling the ripple effects of all of this. And in some cases, it is very challenging for faculty to come to us with these issues, for all of those same reasons that we mentioned earlier, faculty thinking, “Oh, I’m probably the only one going through this, perhaps it’s not appropriate for me to come and talk about this,” or the opposite extreme, where they are oversharing all of the things that are happening, and we have to figure out how to help support them, and perhaps do that in a way that is most effective, while protecting ourselves at the same time from that compassion fatigue. So if faculty are to trust us, that means that we have to be willing to be vulnerable to a certain extent, as well. And that’s not to say that we bare our entire souls and say everything that is deeper or personal about what we’ve been through. But it does mean that it’s helpful for us to share some stories of our own teaching woes, or to talk about moments that things just didn’t go right. Or to let faculty know, “You’re the third person to come into my office today letting me know about this, so I just want you to know that you’re not alone,” or to let them know “this is a topic that has come up repeatedly, and just to let you know, we’ve heard about it so much that our director has gone and informed the provost too, so we’re going to start having greater conversations as a campus community about it.” And so those are the types of ways that we show up for faculty, because, again, if they’re going to be comfortable with us, we have to show them that we too, are willing to be vulnerable with them. The other thing that I should mention as well is that part of this process is for us to generate community too. So not only do we meet with each other as a team, but we’re also part of the Rhode Island Teaching and Learning Network. So we have educational developers from the entire state of Rhode Island on that network. And we meet monthly to talk about issues, ideas, and concerns that we’re seeing, and that’s a really great space for us all to get together and quite honestly, it is so supportive, and I’m not quite sure what I would do without that network.

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking: “What’s next?”

Terri: Our next steps are, as we said a few minutes ago, actually, we were talking about how students feel alienated, discontent, apathy, belonging issues, and our faculty are also feeling some of these same things. And surprise, educational developers are also in that mix. And we are feeling that same sense of disengagement and burnout, and compassion fatigue. And our next steps are to take these subjects that we’re working with and really start thinking about how it impacts our work as educational developers and other educational developers. We do a lot of the support work, and much is required of us, and how are we supporting each other? As Constanza mentioned a moment ago, the Rhode Island Teaching and Learning Network has been a place where we’ve been having some of these conversations this year, and we hope to continue to have them there and on our campus.

Constanza: I think Terri said that perfectly.

John: Well, thank you. It’s great talking to you again, and we look forward to future conversations.

Constanza: It’s great to speak with both of you. Rebecca, so nice to meet you. It’s so funny when you hear someone’s voice and then, I’m sure you get this all the time, and then you get to see them and I hope to meet you both in Oswego sometime. We’ll make it happen. And I’ll bring Terri with me.

John: That would be great.

Terri: It was lovely to see you both. Thank you.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

Ganesh: Editing assistance by Ganesh.

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275. Improving Learning and Mental Health

 Student reports of mental health challenges have been rising rapidly for several years. In this episode, Robert Eaton and Bonnie Moon join us to discuss what faculty can do to better support students facing these challenges. Robert and Bonnie aretwo of the authors of Improving Learning and Mental Health in the College Classroom, which will be released later this spring by West Virginia University Press.

After completing a law degree at Stanford and working for several years as a litigator and general counsel, Robert returned to academia in 2004 as a member of the Religious Education faculty at BYU-Idaho. He is currently a professor of religious education and a learning and teaching fellow, and has previously served as the Associate Academic Vice President for Academic Development at BYU-Idaho. Bonnie is a member of the math department at BYU-Idaho, where she also serves as STEM Outreach Coordinator.

Shownotes

Transcript

John: Student reports of mental health challenges have been rising rapidly for several years. In this episode, we discuss what faculty can do to better support students facing these challenges.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guests today are Robert Eaton and Bonnie Moon. They are two of the authors of Improving Learning and Mental Health in the College Classroom, which will be released later this spring by West Virginia University Press. After completing a law degree at Stanford and working for several years as a litigator and general counsel, Robert returned to academia in 2004 as a member of the Religious Education faculty at BYU-Idaho. He is currently a professor of religious education and a learning and teaching fellow, and has previously served as the Associate Academic Vice President for Academic Development at BYU-Idaho. Bonnie is a member of the math department at BYU-Idaho, where she also serves as STEM Outreach Coordinator. Welcome Robert and Bonnie.

Robert: Good to be here.

Bonnie: Thank you.

John: Our teas today are: …are either of you drinking tea?

Bonnie: [LAUGHTER] I brought my lemon water. Can I still be on your show? [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: Well, they are two key ingredients of tea.

Bonnie: Yes, right. That’s what I thought.

Robert: And I brought my favorite flavorful herbal tea. Sweet and Spicy Original from Good Earth.

Rebecca: That sounds good. I’m sporting the Hunan jig again, John. That’s all I got. [LAUGHTER]

John: And I have a ginger peach green tea today.

Bonnie: Oh, that sounds delicious, too.

John: We’ve invited you here to discuss Improving Learning and Mental Health in the College Classroom. Could you tell us a little bit about how this project came about?

Robert: It actually started with me. And it’s hard for me to trace exactly when it started. But I’ve been out of the classroom on a full-time basis for a while. And when I got back in, I was amazed to see just how many students were flaming out and fizzling out by the end of the semester because of mental health challenges. And I’d sensed that this was an issue of increasing severity, but still seeing it firsthand, especially after a few years away, was really breathtaking, and got me thinking about the way that we teach and our course design decisions and what effects that might have on students and whether there were things that we as professors could do. So I ended up kicking off a semester-long faculty learning community exercise, we call them a “Think Shop” here and Bonnie was one of the members of that group. And I thought I wanted to tackle a book, and eventually as we got into it, I invited Steve Hunsaker, who’s not with us today and Bonnie to join us. And it’s been a marvelous collaborative effort.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about who your target audience for the book is?

Bonnie: College professors, somebody like me, who didn’t come from a background heavy in psychology or understanding the psyche and to someone that loves mathematics… someone like me, who doesn’t really understand all of the details, but wants her students to feel safe in her classroom and have a safe place to study and to thrive and to be passionate about something. And so, yeah, so college professors, research or at our Institute, we focus on teaching but either kind of Institute.

Robert: So that said, our research assistant has now graduated and is teaching elementary school, and said she uses many of the ideas from the book. And they’ve been relevant even in a K-12 setting. I was thinking through how we probably, from a marketing standpoint, didn’t choose wisely enough… that really many of the ideas in the book would be beneficial to a student, even if their teachers choose not to do any of these things, they could still realize, “Wow, community matters, maybe I should try to connect with some people and create a study group, even if the teacher doesn’t facilitate that.” So I would say college students with mental health challenges and their parents might benefit from it as well,

Rebecca: When we’re running professional development, which is just another setting of teaching, those students might also fit some of these descriptions, too. [LAUGHTER]

John: Could you tell us a little bit more about that faculty learning community that this work began to grow out of?

Robert: A few years ago, we’d started a formalized faculty learning community exercise, we branded ours a “Think Shop,” but basically, it’s a semester-long effort where faculty from different disciplines come together and take a deep dive into the scholarship of learning and teaching or something that affects teaching and we exchange ideas. So we met every week, we each read different things, and I kind of facilitated that and led a discussion. So it was delightful to get to know colleagues better and to brainstorm and benefit from the different disciplinary perspectives. Bonnie, would you add anything to that?

Bonnie:Yeah, I am so grateful that I found that community. Not only are we hopeful that we’ll create a place where students can thrive, but I think it’s important for the professors that run these classes to also model this and to participate in these things. So having that community with other colleagues, especially right at the start at COVID, [LAUGHTER] was very helpful to me and my mental health. And it was just invigorating to learn new things and understand a whole new discipline that I had never studied before and to try and understand what’s happening. So I think it was an opportunity for me just to even model when I’m hoping that my students will do as well.

Robert: It turns out community is not just good for students from a mental health standpoint, but for faculty. For us, the timing was fortuitous, it came right on the front end of the pandemic. So at the time when people were kind of having to withdraw socially we continued it virtually, and it gave us some great community support.

Rebecca: It’s probably worth noting that you just mentioned that this conversation started prior to the pandemic. Certainly, our awareness around mental health issues have been raised and related to the pandemic, but these were growing issues among college students prior to the pandemic, for sure. Can you talk a little bit about why we’re seeing these mental health challenges so prevalent among college students?

Robert: It may be a cop out that we took in the book. But we basically said, what are the root causes of this? We’re not really sure, but we know they’re arriving, and that the problems are real. In fact, one of my fears, sometimes, with the conversations among some of our more hard nosed colleagues, when we talk about roots is that I feel they’re a bit dismissive of the symptoms, and think, well, people just sort of buck up, and if they’d put away their cell phones and move some pipe and work like we used to everything would be fine. I’m fascinated by the debates. And in fact, there was one item, we were going to include in Bonnie’’s chapter, and then a meta analysis came out that was contrary to the other studies that I’ve been seeing. And so we left it out. So I’m puzzled, intrigued, and have my own guesses. It’s hard to ignore technology and the way it’s changed society. So that’s certainly a controversial but leading candidate, but something has changed. There’s a little bit of people being more willing to go and get diagnosed, and maybe a little bit of change of measurement. But there’s some pretty good solid measurements, like attempted suicides or self harm, where it’s not just categorization, where we can see this is really snowballing over time. So our short answer is, we’re not really sure. But we know they’re coming to us with these problems, we are rooting for those people researching the root causes. And we’re kind of leaving that to others as we deal with the symptoms that we see in our classrooms.

John: We’ve always lost a lot of students along the way. And some of that seems to be related to the stress and anxiety that students experience. You describe in your book, the high-risk, high-stakes, environment of college. Why would that tend to increase the prevalence of mental health challenges for students?

Bonnie: So first of all, they’re just coming from maybe a secure place, high school, a place where their teachers were there, they knew them every day, they were very structured, and they knew their schedules, and then they’re coming to this new place to navigate. And it’s a whole new world. And so they’re on their own, their support system is not necessarily in place as they come into this new world. And it’s just like we said in the book about this petri dish just ready [LAUGHTER] for something to happen that does not seem normal or good. And so I think that the uncertain times of it, the deadlines that we put on them, maybe sometimes just not even having a friend. Some of these kids get isolated in their rooms, and they don’t see people for days, and then the teachers start to hopefully miss them. And I think that is part of where we can make a difference. And we were probably going to talk about this later, but when you think about the college experience, the teacher, the professor, is the one that has the most likelihood of seeing these students most often and most regularly, and when we don’t see them. I’m hoping that we’re alarmed. And like, “Where have they been for a week or two weeks or three weeks?” One day, I was in class, and I noticed one of my groups was conversing and that one of the students was really struggling to socially interact with these other kids. And he was just upset and mad. And the other three students were very uncomfortable working with him. And so I started to wonder what was going on. And I made a few phone calls, and one of the students asked me to please call the services on campus… I’m not sure what they were called back then, we’ve been working on this at our campus to get these services more upfront… but I think I ended up calling security because the kids were so worried about this kid, that he was going to be violent, that I ended up calling security. And so security actually had a program where they reached out to him, they went to look for him at his home. And the sad thing is that this kid never showed up to my class again. And so after that experience, I was like “What happened?” like do inform us of things going on. And I found out later on that he had passed away, and there was no details, there was nothing. And as a professor, I was like, “What could I have done?” I didn’t understand, I knew something was kind of strange, but I just didn’t understand, I didn’t have the tools, and it’s not our job to fix these things. But to be able to recognize something in our classes and get these students to places where they can get help. I think that’s something we can do, and it doesn’t go too far outside of the reach of our classroom. We’re trying to build curriculum, we’re trying to build awesome experiences that motivate students. A lot of us might say, we don’t have time for this when I have time to worry about the students outside of our classes. But it would have taken just a couple phone calls, and I know they did reach out. But I don’t know, I don’t know what happened to that student. But still, I feel like I can do something. Even if it’s small I can do something for one person. It matters.

Rebecca: I think the reality is that we often say we don’t have time yet we expend a lot of energy actually worrying about our students, or at least a good portion of faculty do, because they are missing or something seems not quite right and we don’t know what to do. So that energy is being expended whether or not we’re actually acting on it.

Robert: Yeah, in fact, I think there are a couple of false dichotomies to be aware of: one is I either do the stuff I’m supposed to do as a professor or I babysit kids with mental health challenges, or I either focus on being a high expectations professor who really helps students master the content or I just coddle them. And we find those both to be false narratives. For example, I now on the first day of class do things differently than I did the first 10 years. And I have students in teams, I make sure at least one person in the team has already read the syllabus, maybe taking the syllabus quiz, and then I have them show each other. First, I have them connect, get to know each other, share phone numbers, and then I have them show each other all the stuff. And once they’re all done, then I say, “Have you got any questions?” And there are usually relatively few. The dynamic on that first day is fundamentally different and better than it used to be and I get far fewer follow up emails and phone calls asking how to do something because they text each other, they know how to do it. So it’s a simple technique, that’s actually a great one, for helping our students who come to our classroom with some anxiety and wondering if they’re gonna have any help or be able to make any friends. And it actually takes me less time in the course of the next couple of weeks because of the fruitfulness of that investment.

Bonnie: Yeah, what if we could be better teachers, and help our students improve their mental wellness at the same time, and it didn’t take any extra time? Wouldn’t you want that recipe?

Robert: In fact, that’s why we went back and forth on the title, we really struggled. But we wanted to convey the notion that you don’t have to choose between improving learning and mental health, that really virtually every tactic we recommend in the book, we would recommend even to someone who somehow had no students with mental health challenges in their classroom. It just makes for better learning, they happen to also make life much better for students with mental health challenges.

John: One of the really nice things that I observed in reading through your book is that so many of the practices, as you said, are things that are recommended by people who study effective learning techniques. And one of the things you talk about is replacing high stakes exams with lower stakes activities. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Bonnie: Given a little bit away, I’ve been a student myself for the last two years. I took a sabbatical and went back to school. [LAUGHTER]

Robert: And what degree are you pursuing, Bonnie?

Bonnie: And so I love mathematics, but I wanted to see how math works inside of a nuclear reactor, so I went back to school in nuclear engineering. And so, [LAUGHTER] just coming fresh off of that, and having worked on this project with Robin, Steve, I’m like, ”oh, I have so many ideas for you guys about how you could help me not be so stressed out, and not so anxious today.” [LAUGHTER] They didn’t want to hear that. But I was like, “I have some ideas.” But one thing I think that I’m taking back to my classroom from that experience is choice. Like when my professors gave me choice, and they let me follow a path that I was passionate about, I was all in, I didn’t have to be pushed, I was pulled into that direction. And so when I think about assessment in my own classes now, like coming back, and I think about that final exam, and sometimes that is a high-stakes place, and very stressful, even all of our exams can be that way. So for my differential equations course this semester, and I have done this a few times before, I give a choice, of course, between a final exam or final project. And we start talking about this early on. And not all of them want the final project because it is a lot of work. But watching them light up, and to see that they could do something different than sit down and take a test for three hours.[LAUGHTER] It’s just so heartwarming to watch them, and it’s helpful to them. And I was telling Rob and Steve that I had one student that took the project and found something to do inside of his other classes he was taking, and he kind of connected them together. And to watch his passion and to see him come from the student that sat in the back row that seemed mad every day, [LAUGHTER] and when I mentioned this final project, he just lit up and I could see hope, and at the end of the semester, he couldn’t stop. Like I finally said, “You can get some sleep tonight, you don’t need to work on this every minute of the day.” It was just an amazing transformation to see purpose, help him come pull out of this. I don’t know if he was suffering from depression, but he was definitely down a lot in my class, and maybe that was the subject because mathematics tends to make people anxious sometimes anyway, [LAUGHTER] but just to see the turnaround. So I mean, I don’t know that we always have to put everything in one place, but we can give choice and let them kind of have some room to navigate their own way through our courses.

Robert: I should confess that I started from a pretty old school hard-nosed mentality. And that law school, it was a game I played well, so I thought it was a good game. And the in-class instruction, by the way, at my law school was fabulous. I still think that. But the course design, now I look back on that and I think a single assessment that’s three hours long at the end of the semester, and your feedback is one number. So I might have understood a few concepts really well and others really poorly. I actually have no idea. And for that matter, the professor has no idea how well the class is understanding things until she grades the final. She doesn’t have a chance to correct. If I were redesigning law schools, I’d say break it up into four tests. And then make it comprehensive. Give students the opportunity and incentive to fill in their knowledge gaps that they identify on an initial test or assignment. I’m just so embarrassed to admit that that, until I really studied for this and dug in and researched, really didn’t cross my mind. What happens when I give a test to students and many of them bomb it and we just move on. What am I hoping that they’ll learn? …to work harder for their next test? Well if those concepts were really as important and foundational as I claimed they were, I should be more concerned about finding a way to encourage students to go back, fill in those knowledge gaps. And so now I’ve softened up and I give them opportunity and credit, I still give them incentive to try to learn it right the first time, but I’d like to give them some incentive to go back and learn things they crashed and burned on the first time around so that they don’t get left behind.

Rebecca: You mentioned at the start of the conversation that there’s symptoms that we see, we don’t necessarily know the root causes, but we’re seeing the symptoms of various mental health challenges. And those symptoms impact student learning. So there’s a consequence to that. If we’re having anxiety, then we might be presenting that in a particular way. And then that’s probably impacting how learning is happening for us. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like? And then we can follow up with “How do we support students who are facing those challenges?”

Bonnie: I think, especially in my math classrooms, I see a lot of stress, anxiety, and the way that I saw it this last week… I’ll just tell you that example. So we were talking about filling in the learning gaps. I do a little bit of just-in-time review so that my students get prepared for class because I understand that when there are those learning gaps, it can be very intimidating to come back to a class and try and start over again. But then as you start to see their stress… and today, the student just started to get angry at something that was going on in my class. And I was like, “What are you talking about?” He said, “Well, my last class, we got to use technology, and we got to do all these things.” And I’m like, “That’s okay.” [LAUGHTER] So I could see that he was stressing out. And he may even have… I don’t know… this was just the symptom, I think, of a deeper identity with him. Like he didn’t identify with math, he didn’t see this math, he saw this as something that he just needed to get through, and stressed people don’t do math very well. [LAUGHTER] And that might be true for other subjects as well. But some of the research I dived into showed that when you’re stressing out and the teacher is coming down on you that you can’t do math, so what are we doing in our classrooms? So I started to rethink things today and said, “What is the root cause of this? What is he really stressing out about?” And that was just a one time thing. But I think maybe you’re asking more about how we identify kids, it’s just not stress, but when they start getting depressed, and when they start having this anxiety. I mean, these are things I think sometimes that are harder to see, unless you’ve been there, or you had experience with that. So one thing that I will share with you is that when I had a situational depression, that was triggered really quickly, I was not prepared for it, I started to withdraw. And I started to come away from my life. And so I can recognize that more easily now, when students start to withdraw from their groups, communicating, or they start to miss class for two or three days in a row. Or they communicate in ways that you really aren’t socially kind, like sometimes they get mad. It’s not just madness, but sometimes they just become very withdrawn and apathetic. I mean, those things are normal for everyday. But if it continues for like two weeks or three weeks, then I start to say this student might be suffering from something that’s depressive or possibly anxiety. So I do look for things like that.

Robert: Let me just add to your question, Rebecca, anxiety, or stress can be a bit like the bull and pit. It can be advantageous sometimes. it can save our lives, when some adrenaline is needed, but in certain situations, and for certain people. In fact, it seems to affect different people differently. It’s very unhelpful in the learning process. So the consensus of the research that we saw suggested that maybe in short, occasional doses, it can be fruitful, but chronic and high doses, stress almost always interferes with the learning process. And then depression, it was just always bad, [LAUGHTER] we just couldn’t find anything saying this was ever helpful to the learning process. And there’s a bunch of physiological explanations for it. But, in fact, one thing to remember is, some of us do well, like I speak better, with some stress than without it. And so those of us who succeed in teaching as careers are probably people who dealt well with that anxiety and stress built into college. And it may make it difficult for us to understand and empathize with students who process that differently. And it may cause us to be just a little callous and say, “Yep, college is stressful, buck up.” But it’s helpful if I then think about how I sing a solo. I sing much worse than I sing in a duet or a quartet. And in practice, I sing better every time than I do in a public performance. [LAUGHTER] So in that area, I can see: “Wow, stress really undermines my performance.” So it’s just a matter of being mindful of how these mental health challenges, generally, when there’s too much of them and they last too long, almost always interfere with learning.

John: What can faculty do to try to create a more supportive but positive environment for the students, which will reduce extreme levels of stress and reduce anxiety which can interfere with learning?

Bonnie: So this is where I’ve been working,[LAUGHTER] coming back from my sabbatical and seeing and feeling the stress. I want to be more aware. And so some of the things that we researched and looked into, I’m starting to use more regularly in my classes. And so one thing for sure, and we hear this a lot, just as a regular teaching strategy is to learn their names as soon as possible when they know that somebody knows them, and somebody understands that they’re not there or they are there, it makes a difference. So this is our first week of school, and so I have put a lot of energy this week into taking those names home and learning their names. And I have an every day classes, this is day three in that class, and just being able to go up to them today and talk to them, ask them their name, their major, and even before class, I’m there trying to understand who they are, a little bit about their background. And so it’s important to me, it’s important to me when I was a student, that they knew my name, and that they knew I was Bonnie Moon, and that this was what my dream is and I’m hopeful that this will happen. And so I think that’s one specific thing that we can do. I realize that some teachers and professors have these huge classrooms [LAUGHTER] with 500 students. So, we’re very lucky here because we have classes between 30 and 50. And so we can learn their names in a couple of weeks if we work hard at it. So I’m very intentional at that at this point.

Robert: I’ll add another just in terms of messaging, we found when we did focus groups that students had had a variety of experiences with professors. So they were looking to read us, they’re looking to see what does this professor really think about my situation and do I dare go ask for a bit of flexibility if a mental health crisis arises. So I added two paragraphs to my syllabus, and I have yet to have anybody I felt like was trying to exploit it or take undue advantage of it. And I’ve had other students thank me who I had no idea had mental health challenges, and they didn’t have to use it. But they said, just knowing that I felt this way, put them at ease. I have this section on mental health challenges:

A growing number of students experience mental health challenges to varying degrees. Doing what you can to stay ahead and on top of depression or anxiety by wisely taking care of yourself will be a key to succeeding academically. But even then, sometimes these challenges can affect your ability to complete the required work. Or a particular assignment might trigger anxiety for you in ways that I’ve not anticipated. Or maybe you reach a point where you just can’t get yourself to class at all. In any of those cases, please come and talk with me, or at least send me an email. I’ll listen and do what I can to help. But the sooner you share your challenges with me, the more I can help. To learn the material and pass the course or earn an A you’ll still need to do every bit as much work as other students…

By the way, as an aside, all the students in our focus groups were not only fine with that, they wanted that. They didn’t want us just to write off assignments that they missed from two weeks that they were in bed with severe depression, continuing:

…but we may be able to find some creative ways to help you do that, especially if you approach me when your problems arise, instead of at the end of the semester.

I think I get a lot more students now willing to come in, my having made it safe through this provision, and let me know about their problems while they’re still in progress and we can still do something about it. Before I was getting a lot more coming in the last week, who were in a hole that was just so deep, I couldn’t, in good conscience, find a way for them to get a passing grade.

Rebecca: So the key is catching them before they disappear.

Robert: Yeah, I think doing some preventive things. So being proactive. We found some interesting studies about just mentors. And as students being less likely to commit suicide if there was an adult they felt like they could talk to about personal things if they needed to whether or not they had taken advantage of that. In fact, for almost everything, the leading intervention that we could find was improving that connection between professors and students. Whether you want to help more students graduate, more students thrive after they graduate, Frankly, even more students participate in class discussion. For all of those different outcomes, the single best intervention seems to be strengthening that connection. So we’ve shared some ideas in the book, and I might just share from our wonderful friend and colleague, Steve, who can’t be with us today, his thought. He says:

This takes me back to Uri Treisman and his amazing work. Treisman, who teaches at University of Texas-Austin tells his students they can succeed in calculus and that they belong, but he goes far beyond asserting that. He traces for students a mathematical genealogy in which they appear at the end of a long chain of ancestors that begins with Leibniz and Newton. He invites his students to meet with him on Saturdays for one-on-one conversations that may not be about calculus, but which are clearly about their success. The depth of Treisman’s heroic dedication to students astounds me, I may never get close to his level of commitment to his students, but I’ve taken a step in that direction by building one-on-one conversations with my students into the semester schedule. I believe that students understand that time is precious and that even 10 unhurried minutes of unscripted conversation about their plans, challenges, and dreams send a clear message about care and commitment.

So, that’s from Steve Hunsaker, our wonderful co-author.

John: So you mentioned both in your book and in the conversation so far that students do care about whether their instructors care about them. We’re not always very good at sharing that, though. I think most professors do care about their students, but that doesn’t always get conveyed. Certainly learning their names is one strategy. Meeting with them one on one is another strategy. And you mentioned, letting all the students know that they’re capable of being successful is one way of doing it. Are there other strategies that faculty could use to let students know that we do care about their success?

Robert: I’ll start with the baby one, if I might, and this one hurts, because even after presenting and teaching about it, I still catch myself doing this. I’m busy. So when I get an email that says, “I’m going to have to miss class on Monday for a funeral, is that absence excused? Or if not, is there anything I can do to make it up?” I tend to go right to “Oh, that is an absence that can be excused. You get three excused absences after that you can make it=…” And then once in a while, the thought will come to my mind, did you catch the word funeral in the email, they’re going to a funeral. They’re a person who’s going to a funeral. So I’ve tried to stop and say, “I’m so sorry to hear that someone you know and love has passed away? Do you mind if I ask who?” And they’ll email back, “It’s my grandma.” And I’ll say, “Tell me how has your grandma blessed your life? How are you like your grandma? What will you miss most about your grandma?” It takes me like 10 seconds [LAUGHTER] extra typing, but it converts what was a transactional email into a human email. So just to be human in our interactions with students, I think, goes much farther than we might imagine.

Bonnie: I’ll add to that. I think accessibility is something we can build into our lives as we look at our semesters, when we’re accessible to students, and we really do meet our office hours or we arrange to meet with them and that we make ourselves available. I think that sends a message that we care about their success and about them. But I think that’s something to do. I know that one semester, my stat students created a project, where they just said “Now are professors really in their classrooms, if they had a question? And so they went around campus during office hours and checked to see if professors were there. [LAUGHTER] And they had a great project. And they found out that their alternative hypothesis that professors are actually there less than they say turned out true. [LAUGHTER] So we had to do some work. But they cared, they care whether we care. So I think accessibility, and then the one thing I would add to that would be how we structure our courses, like we don’t have to go way out of our way to make this happen. We can restructure our courses so that we get the learning done. And actually, we can maybe even improve the learning as we restructure. So an example would be in one of my classes, I have a lab day built in. And it’s not a lab day outside of class time, it’s not asking them to go get in groups outside of class time, I actually create a lab day during the week that we come together and they get to ask questions, they can talk about the homework, they can work on their group projects, because I care that they have a life. I know my class is not their only class and meeting up with groups is difficult. And I care about that. And so I just build it into my curriculum. And so I do a few more videos, I do a little bit more writing so they have some things to prepare for class. If I don’t need to say it during class, I can put it outside of class. And then during class, we can use that time to collaborate and to foster relationships and to think about deep things and to get passionate about things. Because I’m there, the best time for them, I think, is with me. [LAUGHTER] I want them to be there and I want to be their tutor, I want to be the one that sees how they’re doing on their math problems. When they run into a hard math problem. I don’t want them going to the math lab, asking another student that’s at their same level the question. I want them to come ask me. [LAUGHTER] So I set up a day every week, and that’s what we’re going to do on Monday, it’s going to be lab day. And it’s kind of a nice breather after the first week, because I’ve kind of pushed them a little bit getting started, we get right into the mathematics. And then on Monday, we have a lab day, they can breathe and I can talk to them about how things are going, I can kind of assess how I’m doing with the teaching. And if I need to change things around for the next week, we can build it into our classrooms.

Robert: I’ve started using Calendly or then I moved to Bookings, but to make it easier for students to access me. And so it’s just anytime that’s available on my calendar, they can meet with me. And when they meet with me… I stumbled on this last semester… I’ve said have you got your phone with you? Of course they have their phone with them. Would you mind showing me a photo or two or a video that would help me better understand you. So this morning, a student shows me a fascinating photo of him and two friends and his snowmobile and a big hole that he’d gotten stuck in, and told me about his love for snowmobiling. I will remember him better and understand him better because of that. I’ve been amazed at the things that students have shared with me and how understanding their backstories changes my perception. I remember asking one student “Just tell me your backstory.” He said, “Well, I was abandoned by the side of the road, I guess because I had a cleft palate. And then I was in an orphanage until I was adopted.” He was in another country. Wow. This was a student who sometimes didn’t stop talking as soon as I would have liked him to stop talking after we’d done a small group discussion. I just saw him in a whole different light and was amazed by the things that he was accomplishing. So understanding students’ backstories, I think, helps strengthen that connection we have with them.

Rebecca: One of the things that I really appreciate about the examples that you’re sharing are that none of them are big time commitments. None of them are huge asks, but they’re cumulative when they add up, and they add up in a way that really demonstrates care, and then when I’m doing it, and John’s doing it, and Rob’s doing it, and Bonnie is doing it, then the student really feels supported.

Robert: That would be our dream, the more people who do these kinds of things, the greater the support network for our students. And you know, once in a while, we’ll do some things that we wouldn’t otherwise have done. On occasion, I will walk a student who is suicidal over directly to the mental health center, to the counseling center. And so it takes me five or 10 minutes, but at the end of the day, I feel like those were probably the most five or 10 important minutes of the day. Actually, that does remind me of one other thing. We’ve talked about connecting with the students, course design decisions, classroom tactical decisions, but we do play a role as gatekeepers. We’re in a position, not to provide mental health counseling, but to spot students in need. Students, when we do the kinds of things we talk about, tend to trust us. And then I’m surprised how many will describe what, to me as a layperson, sounds like depression, but they’ve never been treated for it, they’ve never seen a counselor. And so I just make the pitch. “Wow, I’m not a mental health professional, but I’ve talked to many students with similar symptoms who’ve gone to the counseling center, it’s free here, and wow, they’ve gotten some great help, and let me introduce you to some other resources.” So just being that wise friend who knows how to connect people with resources, we’re in a unique position to do that, as professors. We may as well learn how to do it.

John: And I’ve noticed that students are much more receptive to that than they were 20-30 years ago, where there appeared to be more of a stigma associated with that. So reaching out that way can make a big difference. And I know I’ve been referring more students for mental health assistance on campus than I ever have before.

Robert: And we can contribute to that continuing evolution by making our classrooms a safe place by saying “I love to go out into the gardens and meditate periodically, I experience stress and sometimes get physical symptoms. It’s a great way for me to cope with my stress.” By just saying that, I’ve signaled to students that it’s okay to talk about it. Sometimes two or three weeks before the end of the semester, I’ll take a meta moment and say, “Hey, some of you have been here longer than others, what are some keys to not exploding during the final two weeks of the semester. Go!” A discussion erupts in which they’re remarkably candid, and they’re spot on. They talk all about things that Bonnie included in our chapter on wellness. But again, it makes it safe, and they get some good counsel from each other.

Bonnie: I agree. And when we bring that to the classroom, we actually are real, and say, “You know what? I do have some stress. And I’m probably a little overwhelmed right now. And I want to back off and love you guys and set some boundaries for ourselves too.” Like, “I’m going to check my email within 24 hours. But usually after six o’clock at night, I’m done checking email…” and let them know that you’re gonna take care of yourself too. And hopefully, they can see that that’s important to you, and they will say “I need to take care of me too.” And it’s okay to have those conversations and as you develop those relationships, you can be a little more candid and they will feel, I think, more free to come to you when they do have a problem if you’re honest and authentic and say, “Yeah, I’m a real person, like I actually have to eat [LAUGHTER] and take care of myself and I have a goal this semester.” I told my students, on Wednesday, we started, that I’m going to do the lazy woman iron. Is it like the iron woman?”

Robert: Yeah, the Iron Man.

Bonnie: Yeah, the Iron Man, and I said, you know, I’m not good at it. I want to get back in shape after COVID and Christmas. And I said, if I see you guys at the gym, that’d be awesome. Please don’t make fun of me. [LAUGHTER] But I’m gonna be on the treadmill trying to get my miles in, and in a month, I get to do an Iron man. I think I can do that. And it’s just fun to open up with them. And there’s possibilities as you’re studying hard, you can still take care of yourself outside of that, and as your professor, I’m gonna take care of myself, because I want to be good for you. I want to be healthy for you. And I want to be excited to be here tomorrow and the next day, and to do that I want to take care of myself too.

Robert: So promoting wellness practices, I think we’re uniquely positioned to encourage students to get enough sleep, to eat well, to exercise, without being preachy about it, and we’re vulnerable in the way that Bonnie just described. That could inspire a number of students to step back and think maybe I could incorporate more exercise into my daily routine.

Rebecca: Again, those are small things that don’t take a lot of time. It’s a small little conversation or a small little anecdote that you share to set the stage for wellness. So it’s not as hard as sometimes we imagined it to be.

Bonnie: I don’t want to overwhelm professors either, ‘cause it could get overwhelming thinking I need to do all this, but, like you said, one or two things can make a big difference. Just a simple thing that Rob inspired me with and Steve too, to talk about. We live in a place where it’s cold, a lot of the year, [LAUGHTER]…

Rebecca: … me too.

Bonnie: … lots of snow here in Idaho. Yeah. And so it can get a little depressing anyway, because of the climate here. But, I send a roll around to see who’s there every time because I do keep rolls, not for the grade, but just because I want to know who’s there. And I say, “If you’re here I want to know, if you’re not here, I want to know. So I send the roll around, and I sent a question around yesterday about what are some fun things you can do outside in Rexburg, like when you need a break. And so then they write their name down and give ideas and so we send that around and it’s super easy. I didn’t have to take any time out of class for that. They signed up and then the other day I asked, “So, what’s your favorite comfort foods?” just kind of get to know them and show that you care about them. But it’s like a super easy way to take care of things and to inspire them to maybe do some wellness that week. [LAUGHTER] And think about those things that they might not be thinking about.

Robert: Rebecca, you have mentioned this a couple of times that it caused me to look up a quote by one of my mentors who happens to be the father of our current university, President Henry B. Eyring. He talked about how small changes can often have a big impact. And he said, “The best place to look for small changes we could make in things is in things we do often. There is power and steadiness and repetition.” And if we can lead by inspiration, or intuition, if you will, choose the right small things to change, consistent change will bring great improvement. So really, there are some things that we suggest, that if they were to change from one final at the law school to four different tests, and then a comprehensive final, that’s a bigger change. But much of what we advocate in the book is something that you can do quite simply, and much as I love many coherent systems of teaching, they intimidate me, like Project Based Learning, it sounds really cool, it’s just been a bridge too far for me. I just haven’t been willing to make the huge investment, it feels like I would need to make to switch my course over to that all the way. On the other hand, I could show up to class a little bit early and sit next to a student and get to know her, see how she’s doing, and connect with her. That’s a small change I can make.

Rebecca: Related to mental health, one of the things that many of our colleagues have certainly noted and there’s been many articles in The Chronicle and other places about this is the idea that students seem pretty disengaged right now. They’ve survived multiple semesters of COVID and other world complications and seem disengaged. Sometimes they’re doing the work. Sometimes we’re seeing students disappear. Sometimes they’re in class not doing anything. Sometimes they’re doing stuff outside of class. It looks different depending on the students. But there’s this general sentiment of disengagement. How do we help students feel engaged or reinvigorate their energy around learning?

Robert: Let me try three concrete ideas and then I think Bonnie might have some as well. First, at the risk of beating a dead horse, the more connected they feel with us, the less disengaged they tend to be in our classroom. I noticed when I sit next to a student and chat a little bit before class, that student who has not made a comment all semester, a good chunk of the time they will volunteer a comment for the first time. It seems to be a strong correlation there. Another thing that I learned in researching this book, and we did a survey of our students, one of the things that causes the the most anxiety was when the course was moving on, the class was moving on, and they felt like they didn’t understand something. I heard Sal Khan at a talk at Stanford say that the problem with the monolithic approach to higher ed or to education in the United States is that we kind of assume everybody moves at the same speed. So we did a test on chapter one, which is learning to ride a bike and a bunch of students get a C or a D or an F, and then we move on to riding a unicycle in chapter two, and we’re surprised when they fall off. We’ve given them no incentive to go back and master bike riding first. Just this week, I had a conversation with a student who’s a family friend, he grew up in our neighborhood, and he’d struggled. He said, “This is my redemption semester.” He was going to do some things differently. And I said, so here’s what to do differently, especially in your math class. When you get a poor score on a test, try to figure out what things you didn’t understand and go watch Khan Academy videos, or go to the TA or the tutoring lab, and figure out what those things are. I happen to be here on campus last night, and I saw him at about 8:30 when I left, and he had been watching Khan Academy videos, and said this was transformative. It really hadn’t crossed his mind before to fill in the gaps. But what happens I think is if that train leaves with students not on it, they then get disengaged, they’re lost. So if we can build into our course design ways and incentives for them to master what they don’t initially master, I think they’ll remain more engaged.

Bonnie: I agree with all that, actually and thanks for bringing in mathematics.[LAUGHTER]

Robert: Always given you a nod when I can.

Bonnie: I could always use some advice and some help there too. But I wanted to add to that… I guess, maybe emphasize… the importance of that connection, and choice and passion. sometimes we get a little dispassionate with our lives, or we’re going in a direction, it just seems that’s not really where we want to be. And as a teacher, it’s an opportunity to get to know kids, find out what their passions are, and maybe help to see some of that passion in your course. And I realize this might take a little bit more time, but sometimes it’s worth it. When we think about our projects and I find out the students majors and maybe a little bit about what professors they’re also working with, sometimes I can tailor a project to them, like I talked about before, and the students can come alive. At the same time. I think we need to be realistic too, some of these students might not really be disengaged, they might be overwhelmed. They have a job outside of your class. They have another 16 credits they’re taking. They may have other family and things like that that they’re working with. So it might not be about you [LAUGHTER] or your class, it might be about all these other things they’re dealing with and we could try to give good counsel as advisors and mentors and invite them not to overbook themselves. It’s not about how fast to get there but about the journey and as you go, you can try those things, but sometimes, they’re just overwhelmed and they can’t do your class too and do it well and everything else. So, sometimes I do ask my students do you really want to take my class this semester? [LAUGHTER] I’d be happy to see you next semester, but maybe you do need to cut out something because the disengagement might be actually something else.

Robert: In fact, I’ll throw that out too. I try to proactively by the second or third of the week of the semester, now reach out to my students who are falling behind in terms of their grades. Most of them are falling behind, not only in my course, but other courses. And so now I try to counsel them a bit more holistically, not just get my assignments done, it’s “So tell me a little bit about your approach. How’s it compared to what you were doing in high school?” Nobody’s really, especially if you’re a first-generation college student, nobody’s explained the rules that in high school, you could get by with very little homework. And in college, it’s flipped. You’re supposed to spend much more time doing homework. I talked to one student and asked him how much he was studying every day and he said an hour. He said it proudly. I said, “No, I mean, like, for all of your classes, and he opens up his calendar, he said, “No, I’ve got a study hour every day.” And I said, “Oh….oh, oh, oh, did you know it’s supposed to be two hours for every credit hour, like if you’re taking 14 credits, you should be spending 28 hours. Think of it like a job, you want to put in like 40 hours a week. This was an epiphany. I think he was a first-generation college student. Somehow nobody had made that clear to him, and he was failing in almost all of his class. So when we’re proactive, reach out to struggling students early, we often find that they’ve got other issues going on, or just haven’t figured out the rules of the game for college life and how to succeed. And that can cause anybody anxiety.

John: One of the things you suggest in your book is that people consider exploring QPR training. I know we have that on our campus, and we recommend that faculty participate in that. Could you talk just a little bit about that, and what its role may be in dealing with students who face more severe challenges.

Robert: So for me two big takeaways are that just as if you were playing soccer, and a friend crashed into somebody, and you could see the bone sticking out, you would say, “let me help you go to the emergency room.” You’re not a doctor. But if they say, “No, no, I’m fine.” You say “I see the bone sticking out. I haven’t been to medical school, but that seems like a bad thing.” Let’s get you into the car in to the doctor. So just knowing that it’s okay, I think sometimes we feel like it’s illegal for me to engage in counseling. Therefore, I can’t say anything at all about this. So that QPR is kind of a twist on CPR that just as if there are no doctors around and someone’s had a heart attack, it’s helpful to have a civilian do CPR, It’s helpful if I’ve got a student in my office, who I can tell as a lay person and with a little bit of training, wow, they’re struggling to get out of bed. And so now, the other thing I came away with from that is, it’s okay for me to ask “Are you feeling suicidal? Have you had thoughts of taking your life? Have you got a method?” Let me take you to the counseling center, and then just kind of spot. And then the other big takeaway for me was that studies show if they will promise you that they won’t take their life without calling you, people are much less likely to take their life. So I wouldn’t have felt comfortable or thought that was appropriate before I took that QPR training. I found that it’s made me feel like a lay clinician, and it’s alright for me to talk about those things. And now, over the last three years or so, I’ve taken several students who are suicidal to that counseling center. In fact, in a church setting, I was talking about this, and a young woman who was a leader in her congregation texted me that Sunday night and said, “Would you walk with me tomorrow?” She was a leader. She knew exactly where the health center was. She didn’t need me to show her. But she wanted someone just to walk her over there. And I asked her before we went, “Are you feeling suicidal?” And she was. So just to be that friend who can connect people in dire need with mental health professionals is a critical role that I think any of us can play in any walk of life, but especially as teachers.

Rebecca: For those that aren’t familiar, QPR stands for Question, Persuade and Refer.

Robert: Thank you.

Rebecca: I was looking enough just to make sure I had it right. [LAUGHTER]

John: And the training tells you what questions to ask including, “Are you feeling suicidal?” and then persuade them to get assistance and refer them to the assistance, including walking people over when needed.

Rebecca: I know that when I went through the training, I quite literally used it the next day. So it’s a useful thing to take the time to learn. And it does give you the tool set or the toolbox to feel like you can engage when necessary.

Robert: It probably gets your antennae up too.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Robert: You might have spotted that thing before but I think I’m more likely to spot some things now, to see disengagement that’s kind of come on quickly to the student in class or absences and reach out.

Rebecca: Or maybe to act on the thing that you spot that you weren’t quite sure of.

Robert: Yes.

John: We always end with the question: “What’s next?”

Bonnie: So next, I’m going home. [LAUGHTER] I can answer this so well, and eating the dinner that my husband, I think, made for me [LAUGHTER] after this first stressful week of the first week of school because he knows I’ve been so intentional this week about trying to be there for my students. I’ve worked long hours this week. I haven’t taken care of myself as much as I want to. So I’m going to go home, take care of myself this weekend, and hopefully, on Monday be refreshed for my students and I’m so excited to keep using some of these ideas and becoming their friends. I love working on my classes because I feel like we’re friends, and it’s only been three days, but I can’t wait to see my friends on Monday and I hope they feel that teamwork and that team that we become, I think, as we become a team throughout the semester. Some of these things don’t come up as often in my class, I don’t see the stress as often as they feel that teamwork. So I think the next thing for me is just to continue to work on being a good team member and creating this team that I want to see this semester… after I get some good dinner and a good night’s rest. [LAUGHTER]

Robert: I’m glad you at least include a good dinner because I feel like my answer is very selfish [LAUGHTER] compared to your selfless outward facing answer. But my career’s been unusual. I’ve spent about half of my time at BYU Idaho in academic leadership. And so just in the last couple of years have been able to dive in and research and write about these things. I’d kind of like to go speak to people who are interested in hearing about this, do workshops together with people who are learning how to improve this. I also helped teach a course that I designed and have team taught for the last six years with a couple of colleagues here for our new faculty. It’s a semester-long course. And so I’ve recently written a textbook for that course. That’s kind of all the stuff we think new teachers should know. I think we’re calling it Architects of Learning. And so I’ve got that to a point where eventually I’ll pursue publishers, figure out how to get those ideas out there as well. But build on some of the kind of the same stuff that’s laced through this book about just being intentional about the decisions we make in our tactical classroom decisions and our course design decisions can go a long way to improving learning.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciated getting to know you and your work better and sharing it with our audience.

John: While we were able to see an advance copy of this, we are wondering when the copy will be released to the public. Mine is on preorder.

Robert: Yes, so it’s preorder and it’s March or April, West Virginia University Press has told us. So we’re looking forward to that actually getting out there soon. And we’re so grateful that you would have us on your show. We love connecting with kindred spirits who care about teaching and learning and education can do to make people’s lives better. Thank you.

Bonnie: Thank you.

Rebecca: Thank you

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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269. Faculty Book Clubs

College teaching is often a very solitary endeavor and can result in feelings of isolation, especially in turbulent times, such as those we’ve experienced recently. In this episode, Jessamyn Neuhaus joins us to discuss the role that a faculty book club can play in building a learning community in which the participants share their successes, concerns, and strategies.

Jessamyn is the Director of the SUNY Plattsburgh Center for Teaching Excellence and a Professor in the History Department at SUNY Plattsburgh. She specializes in the study of pop culture, gender studies, and teaching and learning. Jessamyn is also a recipient of the State University of New York’s Chancellor’s Award for Teaching Excellence and the editor of Teaching History: a Journal of Methods. She’s the author of Geeky Pedagogy: a Guide for Intellectuals, Introverts, and Nerds Who Want to be Effective Teachers. She is also the editor of Picture a Professor: Interrupting Biases about Faculty and Increasing Student Learning, which was released by West Virginia University Press.

Show Notes

  • Neuhaus, J. (2019). Geeky Pedagogy: A Guide for Intellectuals, Introverts, and Nerds Who Want to Be Effective Teachers. West Virginia University Press.
  • Neuhaus, Jessamyn (2022). Picture a Professor: Interrupting Biases about Faculty and Increasing Student Learning. West Virginia University Press.
  • Jessamyn Neuhaus (2019). Geeky Pedagogy. Tea for Teaching podcast. Episode 82. May 22.
  • Miller, M. D. (2014). Minds Online: Teaching Effectively with Technology. Harvard University Press.
  • Darby, F., & Lang, J. M. (2019). Small Teaching Online: Applying Learning Science in Online Classes. John Wiley & Sons.
  • Felten, P., & Lambert, L. M. (2020). Relationship-Rich Education: How human connections drive success in college. JHU Press.
  • Lang, J. M. (2020). Distracted: Why students can’t focus and what you can do about it. Hachette UK.
  • Addy, T. M., Dube, D., Mitchell, K. A., & SoRelle, M. (2021). What inclusive instructors do: Principles and practices for excellence in college teaching. Stylus Publishing, LLC.
  • Miller, M. D. (2022). Remembering and Forgetting in the Age of Technology: Teaching, Learning, and the Science of Memory in a Wired World. West Virginia University Press.
  • Sathy, V., & Hogan, K. A. (2022). Inclusive teaching: Strategies for promoting equity in the college classroom. West Virginia University Press.
  • 268. Advancing Inclusivity while Mitigating Burnout. Tea for Teaching podcast. December 21, 2022.
  • Resources developed by Viji Sathy and Kelly Hogan for reading groups for Inclusive Teaching

Transcript

John: College teaching is often a very solitary endeavor and can result in feelings of isolation, especially in turbulent times, such as those we’ve experienced recently. In this episode, we discuss the role that a faculty book club can play in building a learning community in which the participants share their successes, concerns, and strategies.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Jessamyn Neuhaus. Jessamyn is the Director of the SUNY Plattsburgh Center for Teaching Excellence and a Professor in the History Department at SUNY Plattsburgh. She specializes in the study of pop culture, gender studies, and teaching and learning. Jessamyn is also a recipient of the State University of New York’s Chancellor’s Award for Teaching Excellence and the editor of Teaching History: a Journal of Methods. She’s the author of Geeky Pedagogy: a Guide for Intellectuals, Introverts, and Nerds Who Want to be Effective Teachers. She is also the editor of Picture a Professor: Interrupting Biases about Faculty and Increasing Student Learning, which was released by West Virginia University Press. Welcome back, Jessamyn.

Jessamyn: Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are: …Jessamyn, are you drinking tea?

Jessamyn: I’m not, I’m drinking sparkling flavored water. The people here at Plattsburgh know that the Center for Teaching Excellence fridge is always fully stocked with flavored seltzer water and today I’m drinking Bubly grapefruit flavor.

Rebecca: Oh, I like that one.

John: And I’m drinking English breakfast tea today.

Rebecca: I have blue sapphire tea.

Jessamyn: Yum.

Rebecca: Very tasty.

John: Is it blue?

Rebecca: It has these little dried flowers in them that are a sapphire color. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know what kind of flowers they are, but they’re tasty.

Jessamyn: It sounds like a power blue. Like a powerful blue.

Rebecca: Yeah, it’s like a really intense, bright, wonderful blue.

John: So, are you feeling blue today?

Rebecca: I am feeling like the blue that I want to be feeling. I want that intense blue. So I’m channeling the blue.

John: So we’ve invited you here today to discuss the use of book clubs for professional development. We’ve been jointly running some between our two institutions at SUNY Plattsburgh and SUNY Oswego every spring and fall since fall 2020. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about how the collaboration began?

Jessamyn: Sure. Well, I met you both in 2019 when I came on Tea for Teaching to talk about Geeky Pedagogy. It was actually the first interview I did and I was super nervous and I prepared like 25 pages of notes. [LAUGHTER] And you were so great. It was so much fun. And we just stayed in touch after that. I was working as the interim, really part-time, Director for the teaching center going into the fall of 2020 after, as everybody knows, the semester that changed everything in the spring of 2020. We don’t have a staff here, this is a center of one. So resources and budget concerns were always an issue in trying to develop programming that would work with just this one person in the part-time role, and that faculty would be able to take advantage of during these unprecedented upheavals and challenges. The book club was something that my predecessor, Dr. Becky Kasper had been running that had pretty good attendance. And that semester, since we were all getting used to Zoom for the first time, it occurred to me that maybe we could do the book club via Zoom, which opened up the possibility of collaborating with another teaching center. And that was you. [LAUGHTER]

John: And we had been running book clubs for quite a few years. Our very first one was Michelle Miller’s Minds Online: Teaching Effectively with Technology the semester after that came out. Our’s started in a less planned structure. We had Michelle on campus for a talk. And everyone was so enthused about her talk that they said, maybe we could start a reading group to discuss this. So that’s how our’s got started. And we had been doing it every semester since then. And it had worked really well. But, it’s worked much more effectively with the collaboration between the two institutions. What were some of the things that you saw as being the benefits of doing a book club?

Jessamyn: Well, one of the first things that strikes me about doing a faculty book club, and this is coming from my perspective as somebody who writes and talks about the geekiness and nerdiness of us in academia, is that a book club really builds on something we as academics do very, very well and are very, very, very comfortable with: reading, absorbing content, and then talking about it. Even the introverts among us tend to be pretty comfortable discussing ideas and tossing around concepts and getting a starting place like a book is something, even across various disciplines, people are very skilled at and comfortable at. So I think, in that sense, it’s not a big lift when it comes to faculty development. It’s working with skills and abilities that most people teaching in higher ed are already pretty comfortable with. So I think that’s one advantage, or one benefit.

John: One of the reasons why we started this and why we’ve been continuing it is that we had given a lot of one-off workshops where people would come in for a session, maybe half an hour, maybe an hour and a half, maybe three hours, perhaps even all day, and then often very little happened following that up. And one of the nice things about doing a book club is that you’re working with a group of faculty for an extended period, discussing the same topics and reflecting on those topics in a way that doesn’t generally happen with short one-day sessions. And that’s been really effective. On a related note, you mentioned bringing together people from different disciplines, we often had trouble bringing in people from other disciplines when someone was presenting on one topic, but when people are discussing any of these books, they find that everyone they’re talking to in this group has been having exactly the same problems and have been struggling with the same issues in ways that they might not have recognized otherwise. So the opportunity to bring people together and discuss it is a great way to remind everyone that we’re all facing the same challenges. And sharing solutions can be really effective.

Rebecca: I think it’s interesting to think about how the one offs are just one offs. But a reading group builds a routine, and a schedule, and regular practice and reflection around these topics. And so having a regularly scheduled time, and we’ve certainly made sure in our collaboration, but also prior to that at our institution, having multiple times for reading groups to meet, you don’t have to come to the same one every time. But earmarking that time during the week for this practice, I think is really helpful. It’s really easy to put it into our schedule.

Jessamyn: Yes, that’s right, it’s hard to make time for our own pedagogical development, it’s hard to always and I’d say it’s probably even harder now, as the world continues to burn… but the group setting, and I never thought of it this way till just now as we’re discussing it, but both those components that you were talking about: the routine of it, and the by default, the multidisciplinary setting, it’s almost like it reduces any disciplinary defensiveness people might have, or sense of resistance, maybe, because we’re there to talk about a book together, we’re not there to lay down the law, this is what you must do to teach effectively, XYZ.

Rebecca: So I think also, the idea of bringing everyone together has that accountability factor. And you see some of the same faces and the same people regularly and you start treating it almost as this little accountability club to make sure that you’re doing your homework and staying engaged with the subject matter. And the other thing that I was hearing in what you were saying, Jessamyn, that I think is useful to think about is that it’s a shared experience… reading the book, it’s a shared thing. So we have a common place to start a conversation, which is what you’re getting at with the academic defensiveness or disciplinary defensiveness that might come out. Just kind of interesting to think about. I had never really thought about that before.

Jessamyn: Well, and here at Plattsburgh, we are still very much in the early stages of building a campus culture of educational development. For us here at Plattsburgh collaborating with Oswego was pretty mind blowing, I’d say, for a lot of people besides just the factor of it’s not the same old faces that you see at every workshop. But even beyond that, I think it’s really expanded a lot of people’s, I will say, maybe view of what educational development is, it’s not just Jessamyn saying, “Hey, try this in your classroom,” that actually it’s out there in the world and lots of people are doing it, and it’s a professional endeavor, maybe chipping away at the sense of isolation that we can feel. Certainly I think it’s true lots of places, but Plattsburgh is geographically very isolated. And there really is a sense sometimes that we’re just out here all alone in the cold North Country. And the Zoom setting just really blew that apart. I think it is helpful that our campuses and our student populations are quite similar… at least there’s a lot of overlap. So when people in the book club share their experiences and their perspectives, there’s a lot of nodding and recognition. Many of our teaching contexts are similar.

Rebecca: And I think what I’m hearing both of you nodding towards is a sense of belonging, like it’s a shared experience where people feel like they belong, in part because they’re sharing experiences that are similar. And in reality, we know there’s a lot of small departments where you might be the only one teaching a particular thing or teaching in a particular way…

John: …or the only one considering teaching in a different way.

Rebecca: And being a part of a community where there’s other people doing some similar things, or experimenting in the same way, can really be helpful in just feeling a sense of community, and ways that you can bounce things off of one another. I know from my own experience, as a designer teaching studio classes, I’ve done a lot of exchange with folks that are teaching lab-based things or a lot of hands-on-learning, whatever that is, in whatever discipline, there’s a lot in common about doing hands-on-learning. Or you could talk about how that might apply. And you can learn a lot from something that’s happening in a different discipline and I’ve always really loved that about our book clubs.

John: Going back to a point Rebecca had mentioned earlier about the commitment of time to this, many people will see a speaker who they think is interesting, and will decide to pick up a copy of the book, they’ll buy that book and put it on a shelf, and it will stay there with the expectation that someday they’ll look at it. But having the meetings every other week, or however they’re scheduled, does serve as a commitment device that people, if they haven’t done the reading, will apologize often at the start of the meeting, and say “I wasn’t able to get this finished.” But just the implicit pressure of having these meetings, encourages people to do more reading on the topics than they would have done otherwise. And that’s as true for me as it is for all the participants in the group.

Jessamyn: I will say that I try not to inflict guilt on people, I took a page from my colleague Jessica Tinklenberg, who’s the Director of the teaching center out at the University of the Pacific, she ran a no-guilt book club. So that’s what she called it, No-Guilt Book Club. And I definitely emphasize that to people as well, encouraging people to Zoom in, even if you haven’t done the reading that week, or whenever you can, to just emphasize that. But you’re right, people will still say, “Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t quite get to it.” Although as academics, they always still have a lot to say.

John: Yes, that’s never stopped anyone from participating. [LAUGHTER] We also have encouraged people to attend, even if they weren’t able to complete the readings, because they’re going to get something useful out of the conversation and often will contribute something useful as the topics are discussed.

Jessamyn: In fact, that was something I did want to touch on, that I’ve been really surprised by, I guess, as the club has continued, is how the book is definitely the starting point, but it’s these conversations, which I don’t know why it surprised me, because the same was true at every teaching conference I’ve ever gone to. The workshops are great, the speakers are great. But then, often, the thing that I do when I get home is the thing I talked about with somebody at lunch, or while I was talking to them before the session or there was an example on the slide and I was talking to so and so about it. That’s, in the long run, what ends up actually changing my teaching. And I see that happening with the book club at times, that the content is this great springboard, and it’s definitely a key part, but sometimes it’s the talking that really seems to make an impact.

John: And we’ll talk about this more in just a few minutes. But one of the things we’ve been doing is we’ve been having multiple sessions for each chapter or set of chapters that we discuss, and both Jessamyn and I have been attending all of those sessions, or nearly all of them and Rebecca had attended most of those when she was a co-director of the teaching center here. But what happens is every day’s meeting, the discussions are very, very different and they’ve all been really valuable. And I’ve enjoyed the diversity of discussions. So it’s just not repeating the same things every day, that would get kind of tedious. [LAUGHTER] And we’ve encouraged participants to consider coming back for other group meetings if they wanted to. We haven’t had a lot of people take us up on that, but the variety of topics and the richness of those discussions has been really an important part of the benefit of this, for those of us who do attend multiple sessions.

Jessamyn: Yeah, it is. It really is.

Rebecca: One of the things that’s been interesting is a lot of the books that have been chosen work well if you can’t read the whole thing, because many of them have nice little summaries at the end, too, to give people a little bit of a chance or some insight into what was in the chapter. And maybe that’s some good book selection on both your parts.

Jessamyn: Yeah, I was thinking as you were talking, John, that maybe we can pat ourselves on the back a little bit here about the book choices we’ve made. Although, then again, there are so many great books about teaching. It’s not too hard to reach your hand out and find an incredible book to talk about. But I totally agree that every meeting, even when it raises very different points, has a valuable take away. But I do think that part of that is the book selection that we’ve made.

John: Yeah, we’ve had some really superb books, maybe we can talk a little bit about some of the benefits of the collaboration. One of those is that if we tried to do three group meetings at my institution alone, we’d probably only have two or three people at some of those sessions, and the sessions wouldn’t be as rich. By doing the collaboration, it allows us to get a full group of people there on more days, which opens up more opportunities for people to attend at times that’s convenient for them. And that I think, has been really beneficial.

Jessamyn: Yeah, I’ll add that, in a very practical way, it lessens the workload for us as facilitators, it’s like co-teaching… that knowing “Okay, so it’s the Wednesday book group, I woke up with a headache. I don’t really feel like talking too much, but John’s facilitating it today.” But even more than that, is the sense of… Rebecca, you said belonging for our faculty. But for us, as teaching center directors, small, small, small centers with not an overabundance of resources, it’s easy to feel alone. And certainly when we began, it was especially isolating, really overwhelming, with having coped with the emergency pivot and faculty’s needs at that time and our own classes as well. It’s very easy for educational developers to start feeling isolated while often we’re in this sort of weird in between place where we advocate for students, but we advocate for faculty, but we advocate for the administrators too and we’re supposed to be everything to everyone. So making this kind of collaborative connection has been sustaining to me in my teaching practice, for sure, but also just as the teaching center director as well.

John: And it really helps having multiple perspectives approaching these books, because we’re from different disciplines, and we bring different perspectives. And that’s been an important part of it, I think, too.

Rebecca: I’m wondering if folks are interested in starting book clubs, if both of you can talk about some of the logistics behind how running the book club and each individual session might work?

Jessamyn: Well, it’s been an evolution in how we’ve run it. And when we started, I think I should take credit for being like overly anally retentively prepared, [LAUGHTER], and I think maybe especially like, right at the beginning, when we were still really like in the grips of the worst pandemic era changes and upheavals, that maybe it was helpful to have some very specific discussion questions ahead of time. And as we were getting used to Zooming, but now, at least in the past book, and we’ll see what the spring brings as well, it seems like it’s worked a little bit better to be a little more hands-off and let whoever happens to come in that day, those faculty, lead the discussion, maybe have a few questions in your back pocket, in case there’s quiet, but I don’t know, John, what do you think?

John: I agree. When I put slides together, they were pretty plain. They didn’t look as nice as your slides did. Mine were kind of ugly but when Rebecca did them, they looked nice, [LAUGHTER] given her background in graphic design. But I think it was important to have a little bit more structure, because the very first book that we used was Small Teaching Online by Flower Darby and Jim Lang. And everyone was kind of panicking at that time. And having that focus, I think, was probably really helpful. But we’ve moved away from that, in general, with all the sessions we’ve been doing. And partly though, I think it’s because we’ve got a lot of repeat participants. Many of the people we have come back term after term. And they’re very comfortable at leading much of the discussion, and I think that’s been really valuable.

Rebecca: Yeah, I think that maybe there was a need for some trust building early on, in understanding that everyone was equally panicking. I remember using a lot of Jamboard and stuff in some of those very early sessions just to get some shared ideas in a base. But I think that also helped people feel connected, because they realized they had some of the same ideas, and then felt more willing to talk later on. And then I think John’s right, some of the same people help with that nice welcoming atmosphere.

Jessamyn: Sometimes things take on a momentum or life of their own. And I don’t think community is too strong a word. I think that is what’s being built in this collaboration. And it’s funny, I haven’t reflected on it until just right this moment, but that’s something that really came out of a panic, like flat out and out pants-dropping panic, [LAUGHTER] has led to something so productive. And it’s only because of Zoom. I mean, it’s only enabled because of the comfort level of Zoom and the convenience it offers people, enabling people to participate and enabling them to collaborate, like we are across a pretty major distance.

Rebecca: I think it’s important to remember that in either of our institutions, we already had issues getting people in the same space at the same time. And obviously, to collaborate between institutions, we would need some way of doing that. But I think it’s afforded people the opportunity to join the call from home after they get their kids off the bus or whatever thing is happening in their lives that might cause them to have to participate remotely, anyways, whether or not we were all at the same institution.

Jessamyn: Yeah, it kind of acknowledges and recognizes the fact that people are burdened, that they have a lot to do in their own personal lives, at work, teaching. So the Zoom format, it really kind of sets a tone for the book group. We know that you have many, many demands on your time, like, it seems like it’s a very concrete way of respecting people’s time. We are offering the three different meeting times and having them via zoom. I’m not sure that I would even go back to just in-person book clubs after this experience.

John: Well, we had actually been offering things with video conference ability, going back to 2008.

Jessamyn: You are an early adopter, John, let’s clarify this.

John: I was…

Rebecca: He’s a very early adopter.

John: …but most of our faculty were not.

Jessamyn: That’s right. [LAUGHTER]

John: So, there would be a screen up with potential participants. But it was rare that we’d have more than one person coming in online. [LAUGHTER] But, the pandemic certainly made people much more comfortable with Zoom and gave them access to web cameras, or at least let them know that they had a web camera that they could use for this type of thing. So that it became really comfortable in ways that we had the ability to do that before, but it was very rarely used by most faculty.

Rebecca: Even if we’re thinking about faculty computer replacements and things institutionally, the institution is moving towards using laptops to make sure that people do have these tools. And so I think that’s really helpful because it does help with collaboration, not only within our own institution, but across institutions.

John: One of the things we’ve been very fortunate is that our administration has been very supportive of this and has been buying the books for faculty. And when faculty get a book delivered to them, they’re much more likely to actually participate because they feel guilty if they didn’t read it and if they didn’t show up, I think that’s really been helpful in doing it.

Rebecca: Does that also come with a commitment device of some sort?

John: In a sense, yeah, [LAUGHTER] there’s a little bit of guilt associated with not showing up. But the other thing that we had often done, it hasn’t worked this way for the last several book groups… we have an academic affairs retreat before the fall semester and we had often had the reading group focus on a book written by the keynote speaker at that event. And one of the things that happened when we’ve done that is that we keep the signups open through that academic affairs retreat and the number of participants normally almost exactly doubled every time when we had that keynote speaker because they tended to inspire people. We had some issues where we were hoping to have keynote speakers, but their books were delayed because there was this pandemic going on.

Jessamyn: Yeah [LAUGHTER].

John: … or other things come up that interfered with it. But that was something that, when we could make that connection, it was really effective in getting more people joining in, because we’d normally have a couple hundred people at the academic affairs retreat. And it was a nice way of marketing that.

Jessamyn: Yeah, and if I’m remembering correctly, you gave Plattsburgh Zoom access to one of those for when we read Relationship-Rich Education, Peter Felton came and spoke, and I noticed something very similar with this faculty group as well, as attracting a wider range of people.

John: I’m hoping we can get back to that at some point. But again, things have been a little bit more hectic. [LAUGHTER] And it’s been harder to plan for the contingencies of what is most appropriate next year in the environment we’ve had for the last two and a half to three years.

Jessamyn: And that also raises the point that selecting the book, we have had to think really carefully like, who will this appeal to most? What do people really need and want right now? And we try to vary it a little bit thinking about well, this book will be really appealing to XYZ, so then the next semester looking for something that might be a little bit different and mostly, I think, we’ve guessed very well.

John: I think so. Maybe we should mention some of the books that we’ve used.

Jessamyn: In fall 2020 in direct response to what was happening, we did Small Teaching Online by Flower Darby and Jim Lang. And then in the spring of 2021, we read Distracted by James Lang. In fall 2021, we read What Inclusive Instructors Do, by Tracie Addy and co-authors. Last spring, 2022, we did Relationship-Rich Education by Peter Felton and Leo Lambert. This semester, fall 2022, we read Remembering and Forgetting in the Age of Technology by Michelle Miller. And we are excited to be reading next semester Inclusive Teaching by Kelly Hogan, and Viji Sathy..

John: And even if you are not able to arrange for the authors to visit on campus, many authors have been willing to come in over Zoom to give a talk to the reading group, either at the beginning of the session, or at the end. And I think that’s also been really helpful.

Jessamyn: Yeah, yeah, many people are willing to do, at no cost, an informal question and answer session with book clubs. Many scholars of teaching and learning are willing and able to do that.

Rebecca: So it’s probably not fair to have a conversation about logistics without asking about some challenges you might have faced during this time, or during the collaboration, or just in running reading groups generally.

Jessamyn: This is not a challenge that we had, but maybe people should be aware that, as human beings, [LAUGHTER] some people don’t like other people, and collaborating with someone that you haven’t worked with before is an unknown in terms of your strengths and weaknesses together. Are you going to complement each other? As luck would have it, John and Rebecca and I worked very well together and our strengths complement each other, John mentioned too, all three of us come from very different backgrounds and training. But that’s seen as a benefit, I do think scholars of teaching and learning, generally, are more open to collaboration than some academics might be. So it may be less of an issue than other kinds of intellectual projects, but that’s maybe something to keep in mind.

John: One practical problem is that pretty much all colleges have classes that meet at different times. And trying to find times that work for both institutions can be a challenge. If we want to get faculty involved, we have to find times that don’t overlap with too many class schedules. So we’ve been fortunate to be able to do that. And once we found times, we’ve been keeping them at the same times each semester, because there’s enough of an overlap there that each session will overlap at most one class time period at each institution, making it possible for more people to attend.

Jessamyn: John, you mentioned it as a benefit, but it can also be a challenge that we have returning members participating, because we also have new people every book as well, every session as well. And it’s sometimes can be challenging when someone’s like, “Oh, we read all about that two books ago, I totally get it.” Okay, but the person Zooming in next to you has never read a book on this before. But that’s part of community generally, the issue for developing any kind of community is trying to balance the needs of the ongoing longer term members with the needs of the new members. How do you make it meaningful to everyone? It really reminds me of a class in a lot of ways, where you have one student sitting in the last row who’s never gonna get anything out of the class, they’ve decided you are stupid, and they hate the whole class, and they’re never gonna be there. Then right next to them is a student who’s ready to have their whole life transformed and they’re about to declare a major, they love it so much. You’ve got such a range in any group of students. And similarly, you’ve got a wide range with faculty, especially everybody’s context changes all the time. And some people Zoom in for our book club. And they’re in the midst of a semester from hell… everything going wrong, their department is toxic, and they are just burned out, next to someone who’s on top of the world and the book is speaking to their heart because everything’s falling into place. And they’re in the same Zoom call, talking about the same book.

John: And we actually did have someone on our campus who gave that sort of feedback, that there was nothing new that they hadn’t learned from previous books that we’ve read. And that kind of shocked me because there was a lot in this book that I had not read before, and I was part of all those other groups, but that can happen. And I think we’ve been able to choose books that no matter what you had read before, will bring something new to everyone. Because each of the books has brought in a lot of new research findings and some new things that we hadn’t covered, even though some of the basic principles are the same. I only remember hearing that from one person, maybe other people felt that, but I didn’t feel that way unless maybe I just forgot all the other things we had read before.

Jessamyn: I don’t think that people participating in the book club are as necessarily as hyper aware as we are of the benefits of just having the conversation. And of course, they can’t see like, over the semesters, the bird’s eye view. They might have a general sense that… and this is actually now that I’m talking like maybe we should have done more rigorous assessments [LAUGHTER] now that I’m talking and getting feedback. But my feeling is that, often, they are enjoying the benefits of having the conversations about teaching with not necessarily that facilitator view of “Oh, I see where we are talking about the book, but now people… they’re moving into more of these strategies or ideas or just moral support, like at certain times, in certain meetings, just Zooming in with other people who care about teaching, and are thinking about teaching” like you can tell that this is uplifting and encouraging. And that has less to do with the book content than being there in that call together.

John: And I think some of the people you mentioned, who were having just this horrible semester, and lots of people have been feeling that recently, especially the last few semesters, often get the most benefit out of those discussions and that sense of community, as you said, is really valuable.

Rebecca: Well, there’s a lot of shared brainstorming and troubleshooting. When someone has identified a need, or has just expressed some anxiety or stress around what they’re experiencing, people are there to say “it’s not just you,” or “I’ve tried this and it’s been successful,” or “I tried that that you’re thinking about and these are the barriers that I faced” … that just makes all of us more aware of what to be thinking about as we implement new things.

Jessamyn: Yeah, the last book we read. Michelle Miller’s book about Remembering and Forgetting in the Age of Technology, it’s only a small part of her book when she’s talking about specific classroom phone policies, but we had extended conversations about classroom phone policies, and for good reason, it’s on a lot of people’s minds and there’s a lot of experiences and issues to unpack with that. So I think that’s a good example of how it wasn’t a huge part of her book, she does address it and address it very well but it was less about going through point by point her argument and her evidence, and more about: “So, she’s saying this, alright, so what happened in class last week with the phones, with the devices? So then this happened, then this happened…” and people were just sharing that: “What went on? And what did you do and what worked, what didn’t work?” And in fact, it gave me the idea. I’m creating a new workshop starting next semester, it’s just called “Classroom phone policies.” And it’s basically going to be, let’s talk about your classroom phone policies. What do you think?

Rebecca: I think one thing that we might want to talk about as we’re thinking about challenges is not one that we faced, but one that collaborators could face if they’re not similar kinds of institutions. I want to just underscore that, again, that that’s, I think in part, why the collaboration has been so successful.

Jessamyn: I think so too. I think it would maybe raise people’s hackles if the teaching context was really different, the student populations were really different. Well, you can’t really understand if it could work, but you’d have to be aware.

John: It might be harder to find common ground between a university center where faculty’s focus is often on research and a community college where the focus is primarily on teaching and lots of classes and lots of students. It would be really hard to get topics that would work well in both contexts, I would think. But again, as you both said, we’re very similar institutions,

Jessamyn: Yeah, it’s sort of the basis for the trust you were mentioning, Rebecca, because there have been big differences. John, you teach very large classes, larger than even the largest classes here at Plattsburgh. So there are big differences that have come up. But there’s this starting place of trust, this is another SUNY institution, similar student population, some general similar challenges with teaching centers that have some similar approaches. That starting ground of trust for faculty to talk honestly about this.

Rebecca: Sometimes in the books too, there’s examples that don’t feel relevant to our institutions, like a med school example, for example, but then we can take that and as a conversation point to say, “I didn’t find this relevant,” but then someone else might chime in. “Oh, but I’ve done something similar in this other context,” and that can be incredibly helpful in helping people think through how different concepts or strategies might apply in their own context.

Jessamyn: That makes me think, though, that another challenge to keep in mind, for other people looking to start faculty reading groups, is that it might be hard to measure or assess the long-term impact of some of this community building and the connections that I’m seeing happen. It would be hard to pin it down and show a direct systemic correlation between this and improved teaching. I think we might be able to, if we were to find the perfect moment, get people to say it or write it down: “We did this in the reading group, and I applied it this way in my classroom,” but I’m not sure how you would measure just like… I know, for myself, this past semester, just knowing I was going to Zoom in with people, like looking forward to a Zoom call, like how do you assess that? But that is… I mean, what? …that never happens. So I know it’s good, but I’m not quite sure how I’m going to document it for my annual activities report.

John: Yeah, we haven’t been able to do randomized controlled experiments [LAUGHTER] where we assign some people to reading groups and other people not to participate. We don’t have so many applicants to participate that we’re able to do a lottery and then evaluate the impact on student learning. It might be nice if we were in that position, but the people who participate tend to be some of the best teachers on campus, or the people who are most concerned about their teaching, and I’ve seen that the people who attend are also much more likely to attend other workshops and get involved in other professional development. So it does lead to a little bit of a contagion effect, in that it spreads to other aspects, when they see that this is something they find valuable, they’re much more likely to engage in other professional development.

Jessamyn: I wonder too, if there’s something to be said for… sorry to use the “u”word… but it’s unprecedented, the times we live in. Our unprecedented challenges in higher education are really things we’ve never faced before. And a collaborative Zoom-based faculty reading group, I mean, it’s new. We’re like, “oh, it’s old hat.” We’ve only been doing it like two years or something. But we’re like, “oh, yeah, our book club” and people around like, “Oh, of course, that’s just how it is,” but it’s a radical major change. It’s an innovation. And we’re kind of still in the midst of it, we’re still figuring out what it might be able to do or how this might work. I’m still framing Zoom, not as an emergency measure, but something that could actually add support and encouragement to our teaching life.

Rebecca: I’m hopeful for the opportunity in the future, maybe, to continue connecting faculty across institutions, maybe with similar disciplines or ways where they may not feel connected at their own institution, but have ways to connect with others at another institution where they might feel some alignment and feel a sense of belonging. I think there’s opportunity to continue scaling up, which is kind of interesting.

Jessamyn: Yeah, I think as the question of how do we mitigate teaching burnout, not only is that not going away, but that’s probably going to really slam into us big time in the next few years. And that seems to be more and more that’s what I hear. What could we possibly do? I just came back from the POD Network Conference. And there was a lot about what can we do? How can we chunk out faculty development? How can we support and encourage faculty? And collaborations like this, these kinds of connections, they’ve gotta be away, I think.

John: We’d both came back from the OLC conference where we ran a session on this, which was in the episode that we just released last week. Yeah, that was a concept we heard a lot about at other sessions, too, that everyone is feeling burned out. And it’s going to be a challenge, as we deal with issues of student motivation, student engagement, in a world in which there are so many problems that make it a little bit harder for students and for us to focus on developing a more productive learning environment.

Jessamyn: Yeah, our next book on inclusive teaching, I think, is a good example of that. It’s something so many people care about so much, but it can start to feel overwhelming. It’s something you’re always having to keep revisiting and learning about. That’s by its nature. That’s what inclusive pedagogical practices require, that you continue to build your pedagogical skills over and over and over and without a place like a book club that kind of just is there to reinforce and support your growth mindset about teaching. Yes, everybody’s really tired this semester. It’s not easy to do, but we’re here together.

Rebecca: And it’s scheduled reflective practice.

Jessamyn: That’s right, exactly.

Rebecca: It’s already on the calendar.

Jessamyn: And it is a big benefit, John, like you said that we’ve been able to do it at the same times, the same three times three days a week is like sometimes I say my superpower is consistency. This is a good example.

John: And at Oswego, most faculty either teach Tuesday/Thursday or Monday/Wednesday/Friday, so by scheduling our meetings on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, it makes it pretty easy for people to find a time to participate. They don’t always participate at the same time every week. And again, they get the benefit of meeting and working with a different group of people if they show up at different times.

Rebecca: And minimally, even if they can’t come to a meeting, there’s a schedule for how to read the book.

Jessamyn: And now that I’m thinking about it, we do have quite a few people who Zoom from home or other places working around their childcare. So it definitely increases people’s ability to attend.

Rebecca: We always wrap up by asking what’s next?

John: Well, what’s next, I think is our next reading group, which will be starting up in February 2023.

Jessamyn: We are very, very excited to be reading Inclusive Teaching. It’s one of the latest books out from the West Virginia University Press Teaching and Learning in Higher Education series. We’re super excited that the authors, Dr. Viji Sathy and Dr. Kelly Hogan, are going to be Zooming in for a Q&A with our book club when we’re done. They provide everyone a book club guide, some discussion questions, through their website. So we’re really really looking forward to that discussion.

John: If you’d like to consider a reading group on your campus and if you’d have any questions about how this operates, feel free to contact any of us. We’ll put our email addresses in the show notes.

Rebecca: Thanks for joining us, Jessamyn. It’s always great to talk to you.

Jessamyn: Thanks for having me.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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199. Revisiting Diverse Classrooms

As diversity and inclusion initiatives mature, evaluation and improvement are prioritized. In this episode, Melina Ivanchikova and Matt Ouelett join us to discuss how one such program has evolved. Matt is the Founding Executive Director at Cornell University’s Center for Teaching Innovation. Melina is the Associate Director for inclusive Teaching in the Center. They developed Cornell’s EdX MOOC on Teaching and Learning in the Diverse Classroom.

Shownotes

Transcript

John:
As diversity and inclusion initiatives mature, evaluation and improvement are prioritized. In this episode, we discuss how one such program has evolved.

[MUSIC]

John:
Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca:
This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John:
…and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer.

Rebecca:
Together, we run the Center for Excellence in Learning and Teaching at the State University of New York at Oswego.

[MUSIC]

Rebecca:
Our guests today are Melina Ivanchikova and Matt Ouelett. Matt is the Founding Executive Director at Cornell University’s Center for Teaching Innovation. Melina is the Associate Director for inclusive Teaching in the center. Welcome back.

Mathew:
Thank you. Delighted to join you again.

Melina:
It’s great to be here.

John:
It’s good to talk to you again. This is overdue. We had planned to talk to you after we had taken a group of people through the Inclusive Teaching MOOC that we’ll be talking about, and then this pandemic intervened, and we didn’t quite get to that. So I’m glad we’re finally able to schedule this. Our teas today are:

Mathew:
I’m personally not drinking anything right now. But if I was, I’d be drinking something in the family of Earl Grey. I like a black tea.

Melina:
It’s definitely the Earl Grey time of day,.I’m just drinking water, because of the heat.

Rebecca:
90 degree weather.

Melina:
I want to hold up a tea that Matt occasionally brings for us at staff meetings, which is a gift. You put this little bulb into hot water and it opens up slowly into a flower and has this beautiful aroma to it, and everybody delights in it. So it just causes this moment of group joy. But Matt will know what the name of that tea is.

Mathew:
It’s a green tea, I think it’s sometimes referred to as a lotus bloom. So, thank you, Melina, that’s really kind of you to mention that.

Rebecca:
And I have sa easonally inappropriate Christmas tea. [LAUGHTER]

Melina:
That sounds good.

Rebecca:
I was looking for a little spice.

Melina:
Spices are cooling.

John:
I also have a seasonally inappropriate spring cherry green tea.

Mathew:
They both sound delicious.

MELIN: I wish we could be in the same room together.

Rebecca:
and tea testing. [LAUGHTER]

Melina:
Exactly.

Rebecca:
We have all the teas. [LAUGHTER]

John:
In our conference room, we have hundreds of teas. If you’re ever up on campus, we’re happy to share some with you. In an earlier podcast, we talked to you about the Teaching and Learning in the Diverse Classroom MOOC that you were developing at Cornell and were to release shortly. We had agreed to discuss this after we had a cohort of our faculty go through it. But we had a few other things intervene, including a global pandemic, and we’ve actually had three cohorts go through it. And we’d like to talk to you about the MOOC, and, in general, how it’s gone and where it’s going. But because it’s been a while since we’ve talked about this, could you provide a little bit of background on the origin of this MOOC?

Mathew:
in 2017, when the Center for Teaching innovation was first formed, we were trying to discern strategic projects that were of interest to our selves, but also serve the common good sort of attach themselves to initiatives that were campus wide. And Melina and I gained the support of senior academic leaders to do a course for faculty on campus related to teaching inclusively. So initially, the genesis of this idea was a professional faculty development experience on campus. And then the more that we got sort of embedded in the project, it became really clear to us that it could also answer another strong desire that we had, which was to contribute something broader, something that other institutions could take advantage of, as well. So that’s where the genesis of the idea have moved from an on campus resource to something on a platform like EdX. They’ve been great colleagues, and really wonderful to work with. But it galvanized us, I think, to think both more broadly, but also more specifically, and by more broadly, I mean, we were trying to think about what in the US context stands up to an international conversation around social justice, equity and diversity, and what is uniquely American, and also, for u,s what was uniquely Cornell’s context versus what might have resonance more broadly. So the process of putting it together was really driven locally. But our eye was always on trying to deliver something that might be of use to our colleagues more broadly. Melina, does that resonate for you?

Melina:
Yes, I think we were doing our best at the beginning, floating ideas, and pleasantly surprised when we got the confirmation from our senior leadership. They really thought it would be a good way, and a different way to provide an opportunity for people to engage with this kind of a course, either in groups together or asynchronously by oneself to have a private learning experience. But what appealed was an online asynchronous experience, that wasn’t going to be hours and hours. Early on, we had a lot of conversations about how to keep this to four or five weeks, something reasonable, for professional busy people.

Rebecca:
That length was one of the things I really appreciated about it in that it was a really nice concise, but very specific and detailed, all at the same time. So it really felt manageable. I know we had like three cohorts go through on our campus and I was unable to follow along during the first ones but I was following along right when the pandemic hit and found taking the course at that particular moment really poignant.

Mathew:
This was our experience on our campus too. I’ll be just very honest with you and say I felt honor would be served if Melina and I offered the course one time on campus and we had anybody take at it. It’s sort of like we delivered and after that it’s sort of up to the universe to find footing. But we have consistently had really excellent participation on campus. And I’ll let Melina speak more to the facts and figures. But even this spring, we’re literally just now completing a spring version of it on campus. And we’ve had a really lovely distribution between faculty, graduate students and staff… almost a third, a third, a third, again, and the interest doesn’t seem to be diminishing. And so, Rebecca, I can’t wait to hear more from you and John about what your experiences were with your cohorts. Because part of the joy of doing this is hearing back from campuses. Did it help? Did it galvanize and help facilitate some conversations that were context specific? And we really hope that we could provide the general introductory sort of framework, provide some useful resources in terms of exercises, but then really trust the process would unfold at a campus level in the way that it needed to. So that’s not a rhetorical question, I would love to hear more.

Melina:
To be honest, I was really hoping we could turn the conversation there, too. I really wanted to hear how your local learning communities went three is a significant number.

Mathew:
It’s fantastic. Yeah, that’s serious dedication, and a sign of positive response. So we’d love to hear more.

John:
Each time, I think, we had between 30 and 45 people attending, somewhere in that range. They were mostly faculty, but we did have a few administrators. And one thing that was really effective is one of the faculty members, in the third iteration of that, brought in a couple of her students. And that made it much more powerful. Because while the stories that are provided in the MOOC, in the videos from Cornell students and Cornell faculty are very well done and very moving, when a student gets up and talks about their own experiences and the challenges they face, as a local example of that it’s even more powerful. A number of people signed up for it on their own. But most of the people actually met every week, where we provided three or four times to let people come in at times that were convenient. We’d watch most or all of the videos, and then we discuss each of them. Sometimes we didn’t get through all of them, because the discussions went for a long time. Other times, we were able to get through most of them, and then people did the rest of the work on their own outside. But the discussions were really effective. And having people talk about it in person worked really well. And I think it helped ensure that everyone finished the MOOC, or that nearly everyone finished the MOOC. I know we had some people who didn’t do all the written work, but they at least attended most or all the sessions. And for us, at least, I think having the weekly meeting served as a nice commitment device, which tended to help maintain persistence. And it worked really well. And people have been asking about when we’re going to take another cohort through. And we’ll be planning to do that this fall. I think overall it was a tremendous success on campus. And we did have a few administrators attend, but not quite as many as you received. And we did have some staff members too. But it was mostly faculty.

Rebecca:
I think it was a really nice complement to some of the other work that we had already started doing, but just didn’t have the capacity to roll out the equivalent of that course on our own. And so it was really, really helpful to us. We had done a couple of reading groups related to racism previous to that. We have a really robust accessibility program on our campus and have been doing a lot of professional development around disability and accessibility. And so leveling up to inclusive pedagogy is really where we wanted to be going. [LAUGHTER] And this was a really nice structured way for us to get there. So we’ve been really thrilled with how many people have participated. And I think it really informed a lot of the work that folks did over the past year during the pandemic as well, people became really aware of some of the inequities that weren’t as visible previously.

Melina:
Thank you so much for sharing some details. It’s delightful, even just to picture briefly how you chose to facilitate those and the responses. I love the searching for authentic stories from your own campus, with having students present. That seems really exciting. This might be a good time to mention a couple of things. One is that we made the decision in January to move from a instructor-paced model to having it be a self-paced model, which means now that the course is open all year round. And the reason for that was to give campuses and facilitators more flexibility to run the course on the schedule that worked for them, because we kept trying to guess and get it right, but sometimes we’d get right in the middle of the busiest part of the semester, which some people loved but other people… it didn’t work so well for them. So I think that’s a good decision. We started to wonder more about how are people facilitating the course we’re doing and trying to reach out to them and have conversations or looking for a little bit of feedback, even informally, just like this, to see how things were going. So, we heard similar things from a few others like they got inspired to look for the stories that were from their own community, in their own students. And there’s many places to look for stories like that: the student newspapers, conversations with faculty, as you’ve described,

Mathew:
I love your strategy of a faculty member bringing their own students and that there’s no substitute for that. So I love that…that’s a great idea. Can I say too, Melina, this is a little bit of the inside part. But it was a big moment for us to let go of the instructor-led version of the MOOC and partially, we just needed to have a reassurance that we had done a good job, that the quality of the work was substantial enough that it could just sort of go forth. And we were always confident that our colleagues could facilitate it well. I think, John and Rebecca, it’s such a compliment to your on campus facilitation, because we know the number one thing here is not the advertising, it’s word of mouth. And if colleagues are saying to their friends and associates, “Oh, yeah, it wasn’t a terrible thing, you know, it was an okay use of my time” …then we know that’s so much more persuasive than any kind of blitz you could do through email or anything else. And if you’re continuing to get this large group, and that’s a significant proportion of your faculty continuing to find this a good use of their time, then Melina, we can take a deep breath now. We can sort of say, “It’s okay, we let our baby go out into the world, and it’s gonna be okay.”

Melina:
But last year was a very unique year. So we had a giant boost. As soon as the pandemic started, people enrolled in the course. We decided to run the course again, earlier than we had planned in response to the street movement and fighting for racial justice. And we had a giant leap in attendance here at Cornell as a result of that. And then we run another learning community series in October. And then Matt mentioned, we ran one in the spring too. We do have some fun things to report out on in terms of patterns of what people are saying about what they’re learning. We have a pre-post survey that gives us a sense of how people feel at the beginning, and then matches to their experience of how they feel at the end. And so I was surprised by the things that floated to the top. So I can share what the top four things were. The number one thing that they moved the most on… so this was things that they’ve collectively they move the most on… So the first one was, “I’m aware of campus resources to support colleagues and students in sustaining inclusive learning environments.” I don’t know why that one’s surprised me. But I think even though our course is sort of the Cornell example, most college campuses in the US have all sorts of support and offices in place. And so this might have been the place where they finally got to hear the list of all the different offices that support student learning and accessibility. The second one was “I feel prepared to address controversial comments that may arise in class.” But that was one worry that we had initially, was that an asynchronous online course would never take the place of a face-to-face learning experience. This shows me and Matt’s bias also, because we’ve been strongly face-to-face instructors for most of our teaching careers. So we had to learn, ourselves, how to be online instructors, and what that meant… how to have a stronger presence in the course itself. So between our pilot version of the course and the second iteration, we added more videos of ourselves. And so we were very gratified by seeing this number of people feel more competent around this. The other one is “I’m informed about specific strategies for creating more inclusive classrooms.” And the fourth one is “I feel confident I can evaluate my course structure and materials for inclusivity.” So that’s where things are trending very strongly. We’re hoping to publish some findings pretty soon about that. And then the other response that we hear over and over again, is how moving the videos were, which to me is personally gratifying, because from the moment when I was a little girl, my father used to read to me every night before bed and, tried and true, I do the same with my kids. Stories were just my way into learning about the world and continue to be so. So it’s just the thing that moves us, our emotions, it’s the thing that makes us open to caring about systemic change, because the door opens to us through individuals… the stories and experiences of discrimination. When we share in community about our own experiences of discrimination and bias, and even our own mistakes that we’ve made with others. I think that kind of learning is so powerful. And so I think that we were able, through the videos, to lift that experience of storytelling,

John:
The narratives in there are extremely powerful, and people reacted really positively to them.

Rebecca:
…especially because there were such a wide variety of disciplines reflected, which I think is really important and sometimes can be challenging for an individual campus to do a small workshop series or something and get that broad of representation at each little event. You might have representation throughout a whole semester or a whole academic year, but maybe difficult to have that much representation in a single sitting of something

Mathew:
Absolutely. Even like the tried and true method of a panel, It doesn’t really necessarily lend itself for people to really do a deep dive or really share. The other thing that I’ve come to appreciate even more deeply is the power of getting out ahead of a crisis and providing an opportunity for folks to just talk, to grapple with ideas, provide them some frameworks. They may not like Melina and I had this very interesting conversation with one of our colleagues who was going through the reading list saying, “too aggressive,” “not deep enough,” and was just sort of a typical faculty critique of the reading list. I was like, “Super engaged, I love it.” Absolutely. Bring it on. I’m not changing any of the readings, but I loved having that conversation, because I thought, that’s someone who’s really gotten engaged and is trying to figure out how to apply this in the context of her work and her discipline and her students. And for me, that’s the best that it gets. But it is this capacity building or resilience building. So all of your cohorts, all those folks who sat together, that’s a transformative human experience. It sort of harkens back to the sitting around the campfire. They’ve had this moment together that… I don’t know when or how, but I’m positive it will do good. It will do good for the campus. And it will do good for students. And nothing else, like Melina was suggesting, it gives you a small cohort of colleagues to rely on and to say, “I’m not really sure about this, what do you think? What would you do in this situation?” And the other thing that we came to learn, which I have to say, Melina and I were both very slow to want to do anything online. But we also were very suspicious of lurkers. And we were sort of like, “Well, where are these people? They’ve signed up, but they’re here, but they’re not posting anything in the discussion board. But I’ve now come to really embrace lurking as a form of learning. I’m not dismissive of it at all. I think some people want to be in the conversation. They’re taking it in, they’re absorbing it, but they just don’t feel like they have a lot they want to say yet. Or someone else has already said it, or they’re waiting to see what other people have to say. So Melina and I have, a number of times, come back around to this conversation about what does it mean to really be engaged. And I think our growth edge, our learning, has been to really expand that definition of what it means to be engaged. So if you sign up for the course, but you never log in, that’s not engaged, that’s wishful thinking. But if you sign in and you tap through any of the videos, or even look at the resources, like I had to smile when you said your colleague maybe didn’t do all of the writing. Not a problem. What we’re finding is that people will circle back around. Like we’ve had a number of people who’ve taken the course twice. I think that’s a phenomenal commitment on a faculty member’s part, I mean, just given how stretched everybody is for time.

Melina:
Yeah, I have a faculty member who emailed me today saying I can’t wait for next spring, when will offer learning community opportunities again, so that I can take it for the third time. [LAUGHTER] And she was trying to remember where she could find the references to active learning strategies. So I’m like, “those are in Module Three.” “Oh, great.” That’s what she was really looking for. There was a new faculty member at the University of Pittsburgh who contacted me what seems like ages ago, it turns out, it was only last December, but it feels like three years ago, and she wanted to talk about how we made the videos because she wanted to make videos on her own campus. And so that was really inspiring. And she recently reached out again, and I met with her this morning, and she’s gotten all her academic leadership on board, they’re going to make their own asynchronous class, they have a video team in place to make it. This is inspiring, because our action plans are always inspiring. And sometimes a person’s action plan is this is a draft of my syllabus diversity statement, or this is my plan for TAs or graduate students. Sometimes they’re thinking of a plan that will be years down the road, or they’re thinking how to bring in diversified speakers. All of those are strategies that we took all of the action plans that people had submitted locally and made word clouds with them, and the word student is the thing. It just stood out as the most giant thing. And so I thought, wow, this is telling me that student centered learning strategies are the thing that people are walking away with. It was a litmus test, but this person took it over and above. And so I just thought, it’s a ripple effect. It’s her project. And she’ll go on to inspire others. We’ve had people come back and say, “Can you do one for librarians? Can you do one for teaching graduate students? Can you do one for the law profession or medical profession?” She’s making one that’s anchored in the medical profession. So I just celebrated her and said, “I hope you can make it a MOOC and not just for your own campus.” Maybe the same thing will happen to them that happened to us, which is they’ll start small and then dive out.

Rebecca:
It’s amazing how projects sometimes balloon like that.[LAUGHTER] Like, wow, that’s not quite what I had in mind and now I have this giant thing that I’m doing. We’re glad that it happened. I wanted to comment a little bit, Matt, on lurking. As a lurker, I thought I might just confess, like what lurkers do. So I followed along twice, the first time I was an active lurker, in part because I was doing a lot of self reflection, and I didn’t want to communicate with other people while I was processing. I had to have some of that time and space to process for myself and how that related to other diversity, equity and inclusion things that I was engaged in, and so that I could then articulate to other people how that fit in with what I was doing, because I needed that time and space to process. And then the second time, I was an active, engaged participant, but I definitely lurked the first time and it was really to have that self-reflection time.

Mathew:
I’m so glad you did. You have to do that. Otherwise, the tension between making ourselves vulnerable and protecting ourselves can be immobilizing. I’m delighted to hear that. I actually think, Milena, that might be something interesting. We figured out early on that people needed us to normalize posting to a discussion list is not academic writing, just post your thought and let things evolve. And we sort of struggled with that and figured out some language on that. But now I’m wondering… Rebecca, do you think it would be helpful if we posted a little something about the benefit of being a lurker, to just sort of normalize that and say, “This is really emotional, and it’s deep And maybe you just want to slide through and focus on yourself, and that’s perfectly fine.”

Rebecca:
Yeah, maybe we don’t call it lurking. But really, it’s more like a journaling

MATTHEW: Yes.

Rebecca:
Like a self reflection kind of activity. Like I did a lot of the activities a first time just kind of in my notebook and was thinking through things.

Mathew:
See, I think you’ve put your finger on one of the attributes of life in academia and higher ed that stymies this kind of work, which is we leap to action, and we don’t provide enough opportunity for ourselves to just do the kind of internal work we need to to feel some sense of groundedness. What do I think? What have my experiences been? What has worked for me and what am I still working on? …kind of things. And to be quite honest, you would have been my favorite student. If that was what you got in round one, I would have been totally happy, but moving it into the campus or into a discussion with your colleagues. That for me is icing on the cake, because you as a teacher will be transformed by that, where you’ll never approach any of this stuff the same way again.

Melina:
I have a friend who’s an internet scholar, so she actually researches lurking. I read a draft of an article that she wrote where she actually talked about the importance of lurking for learning about different others… like basically, it was making an argument that lurking is a really good way to learn how to be an ally, to learn about groups that you’re not a member of, to learn what new vocabulary is out there, in terms of how to talk about certain topics. I know, there’s a lot of anxiety about offending people and getting the terms right. And I’m at the point now where I’m likely to make mistakes, because things have changed enough within my own lifetime that the vocabulary is constantly really being updated. I think that anything we can do to reduce anxiety and help people feel more connected to each other, to the course, to have opportunities to just reflect on their own experiences. And you’re not the only one who engaged with the course that way, Rebecca. The woman I talked to this morning did the same. She posted, but she would only post at the end of reading every other person’s reflections. And I’ll say, just in case somebody goes to the course and says, “Well, where are the discussion boards?” …that was one of the things that we ended up giving up in moving to the self-paced modality. And that’s because we couldn’t staff moderators 24/7. Before we were able to have a robust and temporary staff in place that would help us moderate the discussion boards. We just know that sometimes there are bad actors who aren’t there for learning. We never had trouble in our discussion boards, they were lovely, so that was such a difficult decision to make. But we revised the guide that we wrote for facilitators to just encourage thinking about and talking about alternative means to supplement those, whether it’s a closed Facebook group or a discussion board in Canvas, or leaving extra time during the face-to-face opportunities. But it sounds like, in your structure, your face-to-face opportunities are giving people plenty of opportunity for discussion.

Rebecca:
Can you talk a little bit about how you facilitated at Cornell?

Melina:
Sure, I’d be delighted to. It’s complicated because it’s not the same every time. So just to give you a sense, I co-facilitated with another staff member from our center, we did a faculty interdisciplinary learning community, same person with addition two other staff, one person from the graduate school. We did the one for graduate students and postdocs together with a slightly different curriculum. I partnered with a faculty member from the school for integrative Plant Sciences and we anchored that one in the department this last time. This is like the story of my life. I used to team teach as a community college professor, but I was the one that had to be the team teacher with everybody. So every year I had two or three new teaching partners for the same course. So I’d be basically begging them to use my course syllabus so that we could have a little bit of sanity for me. So I love this because people have different facilitation styles, they bring different skills to the table. So it’s very inspiring, and they’re very different. So the interdisciplinary faculty cohort is one kind of experience. The faculty there basically love hearing about similarities and differences, like they’re so relieved to find colleagues who care just as much as they do about inclusion. And they’re delighted to hear about strategies that maybe they can try and they’re also relieved to share the knotty points of difficulty that others may not be facing that are discipline specific to them. And then, in the cohorts that we’ve led that are anchored in the department, those conversations are just as rich because you can focus on things that are important to that group. So in the School For Integrative Plant Sciences, we asked the chair to provide a scenario for a difficult conversation so that we could have a little practice around that. And they’re remodeling their entranceway. So they’re having these discussions about how to portray their discipline. And so the argument is about the history of the discipline and all the white male people versus wanting to diversify the discipline nowadays and what they want to do. So we had a pretty amazing sort of hot topics dialogue that I think left them feeling more empowered and more ready. And the person who’s actually truly leading that initiative was also relieved to hear all the different opinions. And it was really important to hear the different perspectives. I don’t know if that completely answers your question. I’m just right, fresh out of doing those. So I kept a journal where I just kept writing down little ideas. Matt and I keep talking about writing a book about this. Like, I want to make sure I write about this and write about that and write about this. So it was a deeply reflective process for me. I keep learning a tremendous amount. And sometimes, to go back to Matt’s earlier comment, we’re not going to change the readings, but sometimes we do go and make updates or add references. we weren’t able to touch on every single identity category. And sometimes people don’t find themselves and they say, “Why didn’t you talk about this or that?” And so then we make an effort to do that. And I have a running list of edits that are ready to be worked on for the next version of the course that gets posted.

Mathew:
If I could tailgate, Melina, there are two points that you made that I just think are so evocative of our approach to this. One is we really wait to see who’s registered and how they fall out. Are there cohorts? Are there natural cohorts that emerge from that, and that was your point, Melina, about it being complicated, and sort of last minute, because we sort of wait to see who’s on board. And then your second point that I just want to reiterate is, it’s organic. And I think we’re both learning both about the DEI issues, but also about teaching and teaching in an online environment. And what does it mean to have a global perspective in a MOOC? This is new to both of us still. And so it’s always really interesting. And we’re trying to still… like Melina has revised the handbook for facilitators every single semester, because we keep getting really good ideas from folks across the spectrum who have tried some things out and said, “This really worked, and this didn’t.” And our goal always is to make it as useful as possible. So it also keeps it really interesting. So it’s the same course. But it’s never the same course, you know that, you’re both deeply embedded in teaching as well.

John:
Yeah, the discussions vary dramatically depending on the specific composition. And when we were meeting three times a week, or four times a week one time, each discussion with a little different depending on who happened to show up that day. And it worked well, though. I appreciated the fact that I got to participate in many of those discussions.

Mathew:
In the ideal world, that’s exactly what it would be, you would sort of have a flipped classroom, you would do the online course. But you would always have a cohort of people to talk through your ideas with and I think that’s, for me, the ideal scenario. And I have to ask, are you assessing this? Obviously, people being there is one key assessment, that’s a huge vote of confidence. So clearly, you’re doing really well. The fact that they come back, that’s even better evidence.

John:
We have not done any formal assessments. We’d like to, but we’re somewhat understaffed. We’d like to assess many more of the things that we’re doing at the teaching center, and certainly the effectiveness of this would be useful. I wish we had a good answer for you on that.

Mathew:
Actually, that’s a really good answer, John, because it’s sort of provoking me to think, together with Melina. We’ve got the protocol that we use, the pre-post, and Melina and our other colleague, Amy Cardace Ardays are working on publishing that protocol. But that might be something that if we can move that process along, that would give you something at the campus level, easy to administer, and really, really interesting. So it’s all self report, of course, but it at least gives you a sense of over time, in general, and an aggregated level, what our faculty finding useful about the experience in terms of their own learning and development. I hadn’t thought of that. Yeah,

Melina:
I did a presentation at the IUPUI conference, and, as a result of that, I have started collaborating with a couple of other institutions who are in particular interested in how to assess their inclusive teaching interventions. And so, in one case, they started by wanting to use our protocol, but embed the protocol in the other part of their plan that they had in place. So we’ll be presenting together as a team this year at IUPUI, which I’m excited about. And I also think that assessing the learning communities is its own sticky wicket. The learning goals are both the same ones that are in the course and you also want to know whether the learning community itself went as well as it could have or what you might do differently because I still have a goal here locally at Cornell to have more of these department level immersions because those are the ones that have been pretty exciting because colleagues suddenly see each other with new eyes, like they see their colleagues as co-agents for change and social justice work instead of having the experience in the interdisciplinary group that I mentioned where they’re like, “Thank goodness, there’s someone over across campus who cares as much as I do.” So part of assessment is being able to tell your story persuasively about what you’re doing and why people should participate.

Mathew:
I think also, part of what assessment can do is reflect on what’s next. What’s the growth edge here? What would help people in the next step and so as Melina said, departments are our big go-to next step. We’re really interested in working with a coherent subset of people we’ll never get an entire department. And we don’t need that. We don’t need unanimity. We just need a core of consensus that this is a worthwhile use of their time. And what Melina hasn’t mentioned, is this other project she’s working on with another colleague of ours that I think is super interesting, which is curriculum mapping through a DEI lens. And so really, when we think about systemic change, in building more multicultural, inclusive institutions, the department is really the unit of analysis. That’s where the work happens. And it’s also where the chief stakeholders stay the longest. And so, Provosts rollover, Chancellors rollover, presidents come and go, but departments mostly stay intact. And so, if they choose to invest in this sort of critical analyses of DEI issues, there’s great possibility for really changing long term the experiences of undergrads and grads and also the people who are part of the department. It goes to recruitment and retention at every level, from undergrads,to grad students to new and junior faculty. So we’ve been sort of building, socializing the course on campus, building a sense that this is a good use of your time globally. And then Melina has… how many departments have you’ve worked with now? Four? Three?

Melina:
We have three on deck for the fall, and had those initial conversations about getting things started and meeting them specifically where they are at in their process. People have expressed different beginning points or interests for where they want to get started. But this is what my colleague Kathleen Landy, who is really helping us to visualize difficult concepts in a very simple way. She’s basically created some tools that we can use to lead people through this process. And we’re socializing… it might not be the right word… but we’re basically getting the word out that this is a program and a service that we offer, and having some initial conversations with folks to just let them know what this is and how the resource works. And, so far, the reception has been really positive. And I think there’s just a different set of needs. We sometimes just talk about different entry points, maybe people want to think about curriculum, maybe they really want to think about pedagogy. I met with a group today that really wanted to help getting a discussion started about social identities and implicit bias. And so that’s really about instructor self reflection, and what our lived experiences have been, and then how we translate those into our teaching practices. So, one fantasy that I have is that our portfolio basically runs the gamut around that framework, so that people who want to work on curriculum have a rich tool for curriculum mapping, and then they also get the benefit of the facilitated dialogue and deeper conversations.

Mathew:
Yeah, I’m a big follower of the sort of John Dewey approach, start where the learner wants to start. And in many cases, all roads lead to Rome. It doesn’t really matter where we start if we have a holistic systems perspective.

Rebecca:
… and the desire to start.

Mathew:
Absolutely. [LAUGHTER] That’s the critical piece. Exactly.

Melina:
Which is an important threshold to cross over… the desire to start. People come to us because they want to, as opposed to this is now a university requirement or something like that, because that threshold is so important and meaningful.

John:
I think a lot of campuses have reached that threshold now because the pandemic, as Rebecca had mentioned earlier, has revealed a lot of the inequities and challenges that our students face in ways that were always there, but that faculty may not have been as fully aware of. It’s much harder to ignore some of the challenges our students face when you had to deal with them in class every day, when you can see them struggling with things that would be hidden when they were on campus. Many people are ready for addressing these issues and these challenges.

Mathew:
I couldn’t agree more. I think timing is everything. And our hope is to build a port of entry. That, like Melina mentioned very early on, we do everything we can to bring people’s anxiety down so they can relax and be in a mode that allows the learning to take place. If it’s okay, I’d love to hear from the two of you about what would you like to see in Teaching and Learning in the Diverse Classroom? What would you see as a next step?

Melina:
We were thinking of maybe starting a podcast. [LAUGHTER] Just kidding, just kidding.

John:
We’d be happy to help.

Melina:
We love your podcast.

Mathew:
Yeah.

Rebecca:
That was one of those projects that started small that blew up big as well. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca:
I do have an answer. One of the things that I think that we struggle with… limited resources… and also, the complexity of timing is always a challenge being able to bring people together at a specific time, so we offer things at multiple times. One of the things that we always have trouble measuring or reporting out Is what do people do with this information? And so some of the pre- and post-testing that you were mentioning before, I think, gets at that a little bit. But what’s the reflection that happens a specific period of time afterward, is something that we haven’t done yet. We haven’t engaged. I think we both have this inclination to want to do some of that stuff, but like, not always the capacity to do it. And then also, we’ve tried a couple of things like badges if you want to tell your story. And sometimes it’s hard to collect that information in a way that’s useful, that doesn’t take ages for someone to produce to submit it to us. And then also to like, analyze it. [LAUGHTER]

Mathew:
That’s a great point, we’ve bandied about this idea of sort of a retrospective survey, like a semester out, a year out, two years out, what remains important or salient? or what have you done differently? And we’re still, I think, in discussion. Is that a way to say it, Melina? We haven’t really resolved yet how to do that. And for us, it’s the same issue. It’s bandwidth.

Melina:
I appreciated the fact that Matt was writing down your idea, Rebecca, [LAUGHTER] because sometimes it’s a matter of timing, getting us at the right flow of the creative curve, and also the amount of times that we get the same ask. So if somebody else had asked for more videos that had faculty talking about successful strategies and how to implement them. So we might be able to talk to your point and meet that person’s invitation. And the other requests that we’ve had, which we haven’t had bandwidth for, was to present a wider variety of different types of institutions, especially in module five when we’re talking about institutional change efforts. So that was one idea. We would love to explore these if we had the capacity.

John:
On that issue, though, I do have to say that the people you chose to speak, I think, speak to all institutions. I think some people may have been concerned that this was coming out of Cornell, and we’re four-year public institution. But no one really left with any concerns about that. I think the issues that are addressed are pretty universal. I think that part works really well. One thing though, that I know a number of faculty were looking for is more specific guidance on what techniques could work to make their discussions a little more inclusive in class and what other techniques could be used to help improve the success of students who are struggling. And there’s so many things there that the issue gets really wide. And I think the topics you chose are really good and universal and apply to everyone. But I know a lot of people would like some things specifically, that could help narrow some of the challenges in STEM classes, where the success rates vary very dramatically. And a lot of faculty were raising questions about that, particularly in math and in the sciences, and so forth. There’s a lot that’s already there. There’s just so much you can do in a five-week class. And I think what you have there is wonderful.

Rebecca:
What you’re saying, John, actually makes me think about a need to send a reminder to people that have participated in a cohort about all the resources that were available there, because now you’ve had time and space to reflect, maybe have tried some things in classes, and it might be worth revisiting some of the material again.

Melina:
One thing that I wished we could do, which we just couldn’t quite figure out a way to do this, but in the MOOC, we had people post what their action plans were on the discussion board. So now we’ve lost access to being able to see those, but the ones that we get through our Cornell cohorts are pretty incredible. And the quality of those jumps up significantly when we have a learning community, like the learning community action plans. I think John said this earlier, like it just helps people finish the course and actually get through it just to be part of a learning community. But then also the quality of the action plans, I think because they’re presenting them to each other… our last session in our learning community is them presenting their plan… and then hearing their colleagues questions and feedback. And those have been really impressive. And I like, John, what you’re saying. I think people want to see some examples of this in action. Like sometimes I wish we could get sort of live footage of a classroom where someone’s doing a really great job and have the camera be… people know it’s there, but they can forget about it.

Mathew:
Melina and I’ve talked at length about sort of what’s missing in this experience is the experiential aspect. And there’s a certain component in the dialogue, the discussion that you host or facilitate that helps with that, that’s super helpful. Because even though you may not be having people do psychodrama, or acting out role plays or stuff like that, but just the act of talking through these moments can be enormously helpful. But we’ve been really trying to think about how the next step might be something that’s more experiential, because oftentimes, people just need literally the physicality of a practice, of a walk through. He says this, she says that, what do I do? Then something else gets said, then what do I do to that? And that sort of is part and parcel to building a sense of efficacy, like you don’t need to have all the answers but you do need to have some strategies that you feel are useful in the moment and don’t dig you into a deeper hole. So that’s one of the other things… I don’t have an answer for that yet, but we’ve been thinking.

Rebecca:
Our DEI officer, Rodman King, has ran sessions on our campus that are like that,like little scenarios, and did small groups where people were talking through it and those are some really popular sessions, they always needed more time. People got really engaged and really wanted to talk through the details and really process. So we often didn’t get through more than one or two examples in a session, but it was a incredibly popular sessions when we’ve offered those.

Mathew:
Yeah, I love that idea. And people feel like there’s an expert in the room who can help them. And it’s theoretical, it’s a scenario, so they can risk making a mistake, but the practice is real, that level of physicalities It’s a wonderful idea.

Melina:
Can I circle back to something John said earlier about the people being worried about the Cornelll voices being like too Cornell or something like that? I think that the reason that that doesn’t happen is because people were willing to make themselves vulnerable during the interview process. So they really come across as three dimensional complicated human beings who are willing to tell their stories of struggle and the background. And I actually think that we have a situation at Cornell, where the name of the institution itself basically has almost everybody suffering under some kind of horrible imposter [LAUGHTER] syndrome, which makes us maybe nicer people, I don’t know. But my experience here has been that my colleagues are incredibly kind and welcoming and eager to support their students’ learning… that always is shared among faculty everywhere, but they’re also eager to support each other’s learning in adult spaces. And that has continued to be a delightful point of engagement. I used to teach undergraduates and now all of my work is through our teaching center. And I really far prefer working with adults thinking about social identity in a different way, like maybe they arrived already. Oh, no, wait, there’s new things to learn.

Rebecca:
I think that authenticity really comes through, which is really powerful. And I think you’re right. On camera, everyone feels really authentic. It doesn’t feel scripted. And I think that’s what’s important about it.

Mathew:
I totally agree, Rebecca, I’m really happy to hear that that’s your perception. Obviously, we picked the people. And part of it also was people relish the invitation to be honest, and to tell what their stories are as they are unfolding. And so I think, Melina, this is where you started, the power of the story, but it’s also the power of inviting people to share their story, that indication that “Yeah, we really want to hear it.” And I do want to do a little bit of a shout out for Melina, she was our… I don’t even know what to call her… executive producer. She was our talent manager. And so she did a lovely job of engaging everybody and getting them centered and made sure they had coffee or water, just sort of genuinely set the stage for a real dialogue, much like you and John do in this podcast. You just make it really easy to be present and say what’s on your mind.

Rebecca:
Thanks. Speaking of invitations, we always invite people to tell us what’s going to happen next. So what’s next? [LAUGHTER]

Mathew:
Next is action plans, Melina and I still have to wrap up the class so… which is actually, even though it’s July, it’s our favorite part of the class. We love reading and responding. So we’ve chosen to do the responses to the action plans by brief recorded videos, mostly because it warms up the classroom. And also we start talking about it, and I think our feedback is far more robust. And we read for different things. So it’s always so interesting to me to hear what resonated for Melina and why. And so I’m really looking forward to that. And then, Melina…

Melina:
What’s next… I want to do a deeper dive on the importance of storytelling. So this isn’t next on our MOOC, but just on what we’re thinking of offering next year through our center to support inclusive teaching, but just really enlivening and bringing to bear this idea that storytelling is an inclusive pedagogy, how to do it, when to do it, when it’s appropriate. It goes back to John’s question about how do you facilitate lively discussions? How do you bring in the personal and the individual when you’re wrestling with difficult scholarly ideas? Sometimes we get folks from STEM saying, “Oh, this is Social Sciences, like the humanities and social sciences should deal with this. So making it relevant, making a case for why who we are as people really matters to the way we learn, how we learn, how we feel in the classroom about affect. So we have a few projects related to that new avenue.

John:
And there was also a brief mention of the possibility of a book. Is that something planned in the near term? Or is this a longer time horizon project?

Mathew:
Well, we have an outline. I think…

Rebecca:
…that’s a start.

Mathew:
Yes, it’s a big start. We have the will, and we have the way, we just now need to do the work. But I think we could help people. I think we have some things to say about how campuses can galvanize around teaching and learning inclusively, as a modality for systemic change. People want to, like you were saying earlier, John, there’s a great interest in these issues now. The salience is higher than it’s ever been before. People I think are just not really sure how to get started. And I think that the Teaching and Learning in the Diverse Classroom course tries to break it down and say there are multiple points of entry, any one of which is useful. We could sort of do that at the department level. Teaching in a course is one point of entry but also curriculum mapping and sort of the other things that we do with folks could work as well.

Rebecca:
I love the idea of the ports of entry.

John:
Thank you. It’s great talking to you again. And next time I do hope we can get together and have some tea in person, either on our campus or on yours or at some conference somewhere.

Mathew:
I would love that. And good luck to everybody who’s still teaching. Thank you all so much. It’s a pleasure.

Rebecca:
Thank you.

Melina:
Thank you.

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John:
If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca:
You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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164. New Faculty in a Pandemic

Being a new faculty member at a new institution can be challenging in normal times, but also has additional hurdles during COVID-19. Most institutions begin the academic year by providing orientation activities to help new faculty learn about the institution and to meet and network with their new colleagues.  In this episode, Emily Estrada and Martin Coen join us to to compare their experiences as new faculty during a pandemic with their earlier experiences at prior institutions. Emily is an Assistant Professor of Sociology and Martin is an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at SUNY Oswego.

Transcript

Rebecca: Being a new faculty member at a new institution can be challenging in normal times, but also has additional hurdles during COVID-19. Most institutions begin the academic year by providing orientation activities to help new faculty learn about the institution and to meet and network with their new colleagues. In this episode, we examine how the shift to an online orientation altered the experiences for new faculty members.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer.

Rebecca: Together, we run the Center for Excellence in Learning and Teaching at the State University of New York at Oswego.

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Rebecca: Our guests today are Emily Estrada and Martin Coen. Emily is an Assistant Professor of Sociology and Martin is an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at SUNY Oswego. Emily and Martin both joined the Oswego faculty this fall. Welcome, Emily and Martin.

Martin: Thanks for having us.

Emily: Thank you.

John: Our teas today are:

Martin: I’m drinking coffee.

Emily: Ooohhhh, it’s late in the day….no judgment, sorry…. [LAUGHTER] I guess that is a lot of judgment. Whoo.

Martin: I’m also drinking sparkling water, so I’ll switch between the two… and regular water, yeah.

Emily: I’m just straight up tap water.

Rebecca: I have Big Red Sun again.

John: And I have Earl Grey today.

Martin: Oh, nice. Like a good Earl Grey.

Rebecca: I’m noticing you’ve been drinking black tea later in the day these days.

John: That’s because I’ve been getting so much less sleep since March.

Rebecca: Well, you haven’t upgraded to Martin’s coffee in the late afternoon, so, I guess that’s a good sign. [LAUGHTER]

Martin: It’s a very dark roast, so there’s not a lot of caffeine in it.

Rebecca: We’ve invited you here today to discuss the experience of joining a department during the pandemic. You’ve each worked at other institutions before. So, can you talk a little bit about how joining Oswego during a pandemic is different than your experiences of joining previous faculty have been.

Emily: I think there’s some of the more obvious ways that it’s been different for me this go round. It’s challenging not having those face-to-face interactions with my new colleagues, with my new administration, and with the students, most certainly. Even though I think that SUNY Oswego has done a pretty good job helping me feel integrated and connected to at least the university and my department, the students, I feel like, I still am experiencing a pretty significant amount of disconnect. I think one of the biggest things that’s been different for me and my previous institution, because when you first start, there’s so much excitement, and there’s so much kind of fanfare surrounding that transition into the new institution, you start to feel kind of bonded to the university itself. You start to feel kind of loyal to the university brand and to the image, and you start to feel pride for being a part of this new institution. And I think that that’s been different this time for me, because there is so much disconnect and campus really is so quiet. Even though I’m working from campus a lot, it’s just not the same type of allegiance, I guess, has not been the same for me this go round.

Martin: It’s interesting, because I would say the same thing in terms of the allegiance thing. I felt the same way when I started before and now I’m feeling the same way as you here. I would say, overall, coming to SUNY Oswego was easier than my first transition, predominantly because I had learned a lot of things the first time around. First time around, I learned, you got to hound people to get things, right? So, the first time around, I was told your email address will be given to you on this day, your office will be given to this and this and this. And then when I reached out to people there to find out just various information, people would not respond to me until their contract started. That was not the case here at SUNY Oswego. I had the phone number of my department chair immediately after I had signed my contract, and essentially the person who would become my faculty mentor, I had their phone number. And so a lot of things were sorted out quite quickly. I had some difficulty with paperwork here at SUNY Oswego, getting all that sorted… people losing things, people putting in wrong information and sending my first paycheck to my address in Indiana, stuff like that. But, other than that, from like a social perspective, I’d say that things were a lot smoother. But, I think a lot of it also had to do with the fact that I’ve learned previously that you got to just hound people to get information. And so I felt very prepared. I hardly stressed me out transitioning.

Emily: Yeah. And I will say that had I been starting in this position straight out of my Ph.D. program, I think it would be a lot more challenging because, like Martin just said, and he and I have talked about this previously, it is nice, having that previous experience of starting a tenure-track position at a university in normal times, so to speak, because we kind of know what’s going to happen when we get back to that normalcy. And so, if we’re feeling less of an allegiance… and that may not be the right word, but if we’re feeling less…

John: connected?

Emily: …connected, yeah, but more in like a school spirit type sense. If we’re not necessarily feeling that school spirit right now, I know that it will come. I know it’s going to happen and that may not be the case for people who are coming straight out of their PhD programs who don’t know that that will happen.

Martin: When I started at my previous institution, I was hit with: “you need to publish, and you need to prep, like four courses.” And one of the courses was statistics, which I had never taught in my life. So, I knew, when I came to SUNY Oswego, that I needed to have all my ducks in a row, publication wise. And so over the summer, I put in a lot of work working on publications, so that in case things hit me really hard from a teaching standpoint, at SUNY Oswego, that I would be able to take that hit. And luckily, to my surprise, transitioning over because of my experience, prepping, knowing where to go for information, what strategies to follow, prepping some new courses just weren’t as challenging as I experienced it four years ago.

John: What are some of the types of things that you had to ask for that were not automatically given to you that a new faculty, perhaps, might not know to ask about?

Emily: Well, I think things related to technology, like the headset that I’m wearing right now, I didn’t want to buy it myself. I know that funds are always pretty tight in a state school system and especially given the situation that we’re in right now. And so I reached out to CTS on campus, and they were able to provide me with a headset and a wireless keyboard and a wireless mouse. Also things related to different programs that I need in order to do my research.

Martin: I would agree with you though, Emily, one of the things that I really wanted to make sure I have was my email address, so that I could sign up for instructor resources at the various textbook publishers, and then also getting my hands on desk and review copies of books so that I don’t have to go and blow $300 on Amazon, just to prep my classes. When I moved to my previous institution, they didn’t give me my email address until day one. And so I had one week to prep three classes, because I had one double class and I had to find textbooks and stuff. So all this stuff I bought on Amazon Prime so that I could have it. So, in this case, I started going after: “What’s my email address? Can you hook me up with my Oswego and Blackboard?” And so I was making sure, technology wise, I had all that. And then also regarding my campus computer, I just badgered people until I got what I needed. But, I will say a lot of things came automatically a lot of things came from my department chair, Roger Guy. He would text me and say, “Hey, did you ask for this? Did you ask for that? Hey, make sure to look at this opportunity. By the way, we have these funds in our department, you should try to ask for this from this person.” So, I got a lot of help from my department chair, which is something that I did not get where I previously went straight out of grad school.

Rebecca: It’s really interesting hearing both of you talk about the transition here during a pandemic, because it wasn’t that long ago that I transitioned here, and from a different institution, and I had a very similar experience. I had to badger. But I knew to ask for certain things that I didn’t know to ask for the first time around. I knew how the system worked. So I knew who to ask for certain kinds of things. So, I had all the good technology and everything I needed up front, too. But that’s because we knew who to ask. And so it’s interesting that that really hasn’t changed. That’s just experience speaking. [LAUGHTER]

Martin: Yeah.

John: And I am still badgering people, and I’ve been here [LAUGHTER] for decades. That doesn’t always end. But, that’s really good advice for people starting to make sure that they do ask for the things that they’re going to need to be successful.

Martin: Yeah, I read this book over the summer. And essentially, one of the points that you learn from it is that don’t be embarrassed to ask questions and get the things that you feel you need to succeed. And sometimes I think people feel, especially when you’re brand new at an institution, you don’t want to be sort of a hassle or an annoyance. You don’t want to come off that way. And so I feel like some people are hesitant and just go out and ask for something. And that was one thing I learned to overcome, coming to SUNY Oswego.

Emily: I think that’s absolutely right, that it’s important to be proactive as a new faculty member. And that’s probably the case whether or not you’re starting in this insane environment or in more normal times. I also feel, though, that it’s important to recognize how problematic that can be, especially for members of certain social groups. So academia, in general, is elitist, and it is very white. And so certain people, people who may identify with those groups or with that identity, they’re going to be more comfortable with being proactive and getting their own and hounding the people and going and going until they get what they need. And I think that that is more challenging for people who are members of groups who have been historically underrepresented in the academy and so while, yes on one hand and because this is a podcast, I should make it clear, I identify as a white person and probably more importantly, I am identified by others as a white person. And so, I think in some ways, it’s easier for me as somebody who possesses that cultural capital, white cultural capital and white privilege to, feel comfortable hounding people, whereas people from other underrepresented groups along a variety of dimensions may find that more challenging.

Martin: I would agree 100% with you, I think even the fact that I’m a man, you come off more as a go getter when you’re a man badgering people about things, and it might not be the same for people of other groups.

Emily: I’m snapping, [LAUGHTER] ‘cause I really like that point. Good reflection, the’re.

Martin: Good.

John: For things where it’s not clear if you’re asking for something that it’s not clear that is generally provided, might it make sense, perhaps, to start within your department to talk to some of your colleagues that you feel comfortable with just to ask whether this is something that’s normally done? Because people are concerned about pushing for things that could cause them to be perceived as being a problem in some sense. Might that be a useful starting point before you start pursuing something too aggressively? If it’s something that’s not going to happen, might it make sense to get a feel for that before you start the badgering process?

Rebecca: I like that it’s a badgering process. [LAUGHTER]

Emily: It’s work.

Martin: Yeah, that’s how it goes. So I emailed Roger, and I was like, “Hey, I’m gonna ask you these millions of questions. Do you know who I need to go after?” And sometimes he directed me to the person who became my faculty mentor, Maggie, and other times, he directed me to Michelle, our administrative person in our department. And then otherwise, he’d be like “Reach out to this person in this department.” And so I preface it with, “Hey, I want to succeed when I get here. These are some questions I have.” And I think any relatively rational department chair wouldn’t have a problem with helping you out there if you say, “Hey, I want to succeed. And this will help me succeed…” and you just have to be honest about it, in my opinion.

Emily: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that mentorship within the department is really important. I also think that mentorship outside the department can also be really helpful. Because sometimes there are a lot of dynamics within departments. I feel very comfortable with my department, we’re smaller, and I feel comfortable voicing any concerns that I may have or asking advice. But at the same time, I think it’s important to be able to go to people that aren’t so close to home, so to speak, so that if there are awkward, uncomfortable questions, you can go to them without as much riding on it, if that makes sense.

Rebecca: I think that’s a really good point, making connections to other departments early or people just across campus, whether or not they’re in an academic department or not. That’s really important. And you can bounce things off of other folks and find out if that’s how other departments do things. [LAUGHTER]

John: Yeah, but I would imagine that’s a little more challenging under these circumstances. Because typically, at the start of the semester, when there’s all those bonding experiences, when there’s the big dinners welcoming new faculty, the lunches, when the presidents and the provosts and the deans welcome everyone and create this nice positive welcoming environment. There’s also lots of informal gatherings and receptions where new faculty get to meet other new faculty in person as well as people from other departments who might share some similar interest. Has there been very many opportunities to form those wider networks beyond your departments this year.

Martin: For me, there has been, and again, this has been the consequence of me going after certain opportunities. So, at the beginning when I started, I told Roger that I needed service. And I understood that there’s a pandemic going and that getting service would be difficult. And to some extent, I feel like, given that I was new, he wanted to shield me a little bit from it, which is pretty typical of department chairs for the first semester. But I went out of my way to tell them, “Look, this is technically my fifth year in academia. So, I want to try my best to keep that going.” And so at that point, he was like, “Okay, well, this committee needs someone, this committee…, aAnd in the end, I joined about three university-wide committees. And so that’s allowed me to interact with people completely outside, even of my college. And so that’s really allowed me to expose myself to other people, hear different viewpoints, understand certain organizational frames. So again, it was because I badgered Roger about service work.

Emily: And we have had monthly new faculty networking Zoom chats that I’ve enjoyed. I don’t know what typically happens at SUNY Oswego in normal times, but like you were saying, John, at the beginning of the semester, there is all this kind of flurry of activity and dinners and lunches. And I think that that’s all great and part of me really does miss having missed that. But I think what’s been really great about the new faculty networking Zoom things that we do is that they’ve happened across the semester. That’s not how it was at my previous institution, there was a lot of stuff happening at the beginning of this semester, like, “let’s get all excited, newbies,” but then it kind of fizzled off as the semester went on. And I think that having the Zoom meetings every month, has helped keep that connection going. And there are breakout sessions and so you get to know people a little bit more personally. So, I think that that’s been good.

Martin: I would agree with Emily on that one. Those have been very helpful sessions, it’s been also good to see where I fall in terms of how prepared I feel compared to other faculty. And one thing that stands out is the fact that I have this experience, it makes it seem like I’m a little more confident in what to do and how to handle different things, just because of that experience. So, that’s been great. But yes, learning from other new faculty and also people outside of my immediate social circle. However, I will also point out the importance of having a faculty mentor who is not in your department. When I was at my previous institution, I had someone in the communications department, his name is Wes, and I could confide everything in him. When I was on the job market. I had several offers. And he was one of the ones who told me to take this one when I was mulling it over with him. And so the thing that was really nice was I could go to him and say, “Hey, I don’t understand why my department’s doing this. Do you know why they would be doing that?” or “I don’t like this.” I still text him, I still talk to him about stuff. So, that’s something I think that where there’s an opportunity at SUNY Oswego is to connect new faculty with people outside of their department as well.

John: That was something actually that was put together this year for the first time. And it was the Dean of Arts and Sciences, Kristin Croyle, who, to a large extent, organized that. We’ve been working with her to help coordinate it, but she put the whole program together. And I’ve been really pleased with how it’s been working.

Martin: Yes.

John: And I think we may continue this beyond the pandemic, because it does seem to provide that ongoing sort of connection. Because, as you said, Emily, typically there’s this big flurry for three or four weeks at the beginning of the semester with various receptions at different levels, and then there’s nothing until the very end of the semester, where there’s a short flurry, and then again, another short flurry at the beginning of the spring semester, and then it pretty much disappears until you come back with new faculty in future years to the same events.

Emily: Yeah, and we have the Slack that we’ve been using… the new faculty… and I think that Slack has been really effective as well. And there was someone in our cohort who posted a message that was like this open call of “Hey, is anybody else on campus? Do you want to go for a walk?” …and she and I went back and forth a little bit. And a few weeks ago, we went on a walk around campus, and it was really great getting to know her. I am a transplant to the area, I have spent all of my life in the south. And so she is from New York State. And she’s been really helpful and kind of helping me think about the weather and what to expect. And I actually met up with her earlier today. She had a bag full of clothes for my daughter that her sister picked up from a friend to give to me, [LAUGHTER] which was just so kind and generous. And really kind of the vibe that I’ve gotten from New York State since moving here in July. But it’s happening, it’s just kind of on a smaller scale and a little bit more low key than it was at my previous institution, which makes me really excited for what’s to come whenever we’re normal, right? It’s just going to blow up. It’s going to be all the more better than it is right now.

Martin: You know, one thing that just sort of occurred to me, I wonder to what extent the fact that with this whole pandemic, right, we’ve been telling each other to be patient with each other, to show grace. And I wonder to what extent the fact that maybe other people in our organizational environments doing that, is being beneficial to our success here. I wonder how much that plays a role outside of just our own attempts to connect with people.

Emily: Yeah.

Martin: I don’t know.

Emily: I will say I’ve had several conversations with people in our cohort, people who have come straight from PhD programs, and some of them have communicated how they feel like starting in the pandemic has kind of decreased the pressure they would otherwise feel, that it’s giving them a little bit of an opportunity to kind of ease in to this new position and the new institution in ways that probably wouldn’t have happened had we not had the pandemic. Of course, the pandemic is awful, [LAUGHTER] like, I feel compelled to like give that… like, of course, I think everybody… they would welcome the pressure. Like, I’m not trying to suggest anything otherwise, but it’s more about like silver linings…

Martin: Yes.

Emily: Like, the patience and the grace… [LAUGHTER] …everybody is doing the best they can right now.

Rebecca: I found that it’s really great that senior faculty are really busy with other things because they’re not volunteering everybody to do everything else. [LAUGHTER]

John: And having said that, if you’d like to make some more connections across campus, we do have a teaching center advisory board, if either of you would like to join. We won’t pressure you for that now, but if at some point you would like to, just let us know, and we’ll add you to the list.

Rebecca: That’s actually the first committee I joined when I was a faculty member transferring from a different institution to connect with other folks. That was the way I did it. And look at me now. [LAUGHTER] You know, we’ve talked a lot about the differences and really seeing yourself having that experience coming in and how that’s benefited. If we were to give like a top five things for new faculty to think about asking for, or to get help on when they start at a new institution when they’ve not had experienced before, what are those things?

Martin: I would reach out to other people teaching in the department, ask them to share syllabi with you, because one thing I wanted to do is I want to make sure that when I come and I teach, that my classes aren’t completely different from what the students are used to. And to some extent, I experienced that. One of my classes, I made it way too hard for them. And that was a class again, that was completely my own doing. It was a special topics elective. But the other classes, I was able to reach out to some of the faculty and they were kind enough to share some of their materials with me. So, I was able to see, okay, this is what standard looks like. Now I can prep my own course in that way. And so that is definitely, I would reach out to other people in your department, have constant communication with your chair (I’d say that’s definitely a good thing), and get your technology sorted out way before.

Emily: Yeah, I think the technology thing is really big. I would also say to be proactive in asking for help in terms of how to navigate the various portals that we have to access. Like they’re all new to us, especially things that are a little bit more complicated like Degree Works. I know in my department, I’m expected to do advising, I think that’s a common expectation among faculty on campus. And so you’re not being a pain to ask for help. And if you don’t understand, you have to ask and ask and ask again until it makes sense. And I think that when you come into a new place, you may feel like you’re being a pain, right? Or that you’re being a nuisance, or that you’re encroaching on somebody else’s precious time. And maybe you are being all of those things. But, it’s kind of the expectation of a new faculty member, like you’re supposed to be those things, you’re supposed to ask those things, because otherwise, you’re never going to learn. And in a few years, you will be the person who a new faculty member is asking questions to. And so, yeah, that’s what I would say.

John: And we should probably note that Degree Works is software designed to help students transition their way to a degree, it lists all of the requirements, which courses satisfy them, and so forth. And it can be a little challenging when you’re seeing it for the first time and just learning about the gen ed requirements.

John: But not all departments have first-year faculty doing advisement. That’s probably more of an exception, I think. I’m not positive on that. I know we don’t assign in my department, new faculty for advisees until at least their second year, just to give them time to adjust to the institution and the requirements, and so forth.

Emily: I think some of that could be because I am coming in with prior years of service.

Martin: Same here.

Emily: And I just have two advisees. And so it’s not like I have 20. It’s almost like my training wheels, I feel like… my advising training wheels. I mentioned Degree Works, but really, it is about figuring out the gen ed curriculum, all of the requirements for graduation. Like, they’re significantly different than my previous institution. And so, asking those questions, because I feel like advising in particular, like, I take it really seriously, I know that students are ultimately responsible for their progress and for keeping an eye on their progress to degree and all of that, but I feel like they’re in my hands to a certain extent. And so I want to know the ins and outs, and I want to be a very like hands on advisor. And so that’s really what I was talking about, like figuring out how to advise effectively.

Martin: Regarding the advisees, I have like 20 advisees this semester. And luckily at my previous institution, we were dealing with Degree Works. So all that I needed to figure out was sort of what were some of the parameters regarding sequence and prereqs and stuff. So I was able to deal with that pretty well. But it is difficult. I feel like some students are less independent than others. And they demand more attention and when I’m reaching that season where it’s conference season, even though they’re virtual, and you prepare for that and I have an R&R and all these other things and then students ask questions that they can pretty much look up themselves and they want a Zoom meeting for it and you can’t just say no, and so that’s been frustrating. And luckily from Degree Works, I’d actually say the version of Degree Works that we’re using as SUNY Oswego is better than the version we were using where I previously worked. And so it’s been a lot more streamlined, a lot faster, you don’t have to, like manually search students’ names, they’re in a drop-down menu, which makes it so much easier. So, in that regard, I’m okay with it. But, yeah, advising in November is never great.

Rebecca: I think one of the things that you guys are highlighting without directly saying is that one of the things that a new faculty member has to do that isn’t totally obvious, but it takes a long time to actually figure out how the courses you’re teaching map to the curriculum within your department and how that curriculum in the department maps to the entire campus and how the gen ed fits in. And just really getting a good mental model of how the institution works as a whole for students, especially because different institutions are so different from one another, and how that is put together that I think we underestimate, often, how long it actually takes to learn how that works, and what that looks like, both for our students, we underestimate how long it takes them to learn it, and also how long it takes us to learn it. I’ve been here for eight years, I would ask questions about our degree to my department chair, I was like, “You know what, I’ve actually been confused about this, I don’t know, for eight years. [LAUGHTER] And I would really like an answer about x.”

Martin: Again, the nice thing that I have, at least with Roger, is that I will just, in the middle of a Zoom meeting, if I don’t have the answer to a question, I’ll pick up my cell phone, and I’ll give him a ring. And he gladly answers the phone and answers the question. So again, having that support makes life a lot easier.

John: maybe we could talk a little bit about your adjustment to pandemic teaching. In the spring, I think you had some experience with a rapid transition. Over the summer, you had some chance to prepare for the fall, and again, a somewhat unusual teaching environment. Could you tell us a little bit about the ways in which you’re teaching and how that’s been going.

Emily: So I am teaching exclusively online this semester, asynchronous courses, I decided to do asynchronous this fall, because in the spring, when we did have that rapid transition, it seemed like a lot of the stuff I was seeing kind of emphasized making things as simple and as straightforward as possible for students and for instructors. And based on what I was reading that meant doing asynchronous. And so that’s what I did in the spring when we transitioned at my previous institution. And that’s what I decided to do this semester as well. I think it’s working well for the most part. I will say, what I’ve come to realize at the tail end of the semester now, I feel like it’s working for the students. I did an informal mid-semester survey, and students responded, they had some constructive criticism, some constructive feedback, which I welcomed and was glad to be able to address in the semester going forward. But there was also some really positive things that I would expect to have received in a regular face-to-face semester. And so I feel like I’m at the point where I have this realization that it’s working for the students, for the most part, even though I know they’re overwhelmed and stressed, and bless their hearts, and all that stuff. It’s working for them. I feel like it’s working less for me. I didn’t realize until I haven’t been in the classroom for months and months now, I didn’t realize how much that face-to-face interaction sustained me as a teacher, I never realized that the energy that I have was so dependent on the energy students were giving me… which is really not that great of me as a sociologist, I should have had this kind of awareness all along, but I didn’t. And now that I don’t have them, now that I don’t have that face to face, as the semester’s gone on, I feel like my energy and my motivation has kind of waned, even if the students still feel really into the class and into my video lectures and all of that.

Martin: Yeah, I would agree with you on that. I’m starting to notice it now too. And I feel like, oftentimes, my own success in the classroom has depended on being able to get a sense of what the student culture is by interacting with them, understanding the body language, I like to shoot the breeze with students, I like to show up 10 minutes before class, and then usually have those three or four super devoted students that are already sitting there. And I like to shoot the breeze with them, because you get to figure out what TV shows they’re watching, what music they’re listening to, and that allows you an opportunity to investigate those things and find ways to connect what you’re teaching to that… especially with my students, they all watch all kinds of crime shows and stuff, so when I’m teaching criminal justice, it’s very easy to do that. So that had always been one of the pillars of my success. And so going completely online, it’s been more difficult and so, similar to Emily, I’ve been relying on Blackboard surveys and when you deal with that feedback, when it’s anonymous, it can be harsh, and those people who are willing to face it, to confront it, and accept it, are the people who succeed afterwards. But then there’s one student on a Blackboard survey this semester when I ask them what’s your least favorite thing about the class? They said, “Martin.” [LAUGHTER]

Emily: But that’s not very constructive.

Martin: It’s not constructive.

Rebecca: No.

Emily: …and they’re wrong. [LAUGHTER]

Martin: Yeah, exactly. [LAUGHTER] And in my response to the class, I usually will send anonymous results in a PDF file in the email. Well, usually in class, when I do those surveys, I’ll deal with it on the board. But I sent it and I said, “I’d like for all the students to like me, but I implore them the next time they take the survey, they should name specific things they don’t like about me, because then I can do something about it, maybe.” [LAUGHTER] But the thing is, you have to have a thick skin with this stuff, and if you can handle that, then you’ll succeed. But I will say, when I taught at my previous institution, I was ready for the coronavirus. I’m a very anxious person to begin with. And so when things were happening in Europe, and in China, I was already freaking out. And so I started adopting the HyFlex model in January. And so when everything hit the fan, it was really not a big deal for me. It was more just me supporting the students, making sure they’re okay, they’re feeling okay, they can handle everything. And I backed off a little bit, I allowed them all to adjust. But for me, that was okay. And next semester, even though I’m teaching synchronous via Zoom, or whatever, I’m still going to offer the HyFlex model informally by offering asynchronous content that’s consistent with what we’re learning in class, because I feel like that is going to be to some people, unfortunately, to me, fortunately, the future of teaching,

Emily: To just say one thing about what you were saying just now, Martin, I think that in terms of not being in the classroom, face to face, missing those more informal interactions have been really hard. I think a big part of my success in teaching in a face-to-face environment has to do with… I purposely am very authentic in the classroom. And so I show students my personality, and that works for me, I know that it doesn’t work for everyone, and I think that that’s fine. But, it works for me, that they get to know who I am as a person, they still have to respect my authority and my knowledge, but at the same time, being a little bit more informal with them is very effective for me. And I don’t have that opportunity as much teaching online. So, what I have found going back to your question, John, of how I’ve adapted, I have found that I’ve become a little bit more informal in my written communication with students. So whereas before, when I’m face to face, I can be informal. And so when I’m sending them an email, I can be very formal and professorial and all of that, but now they don’t get any of that informality. And so I’m using emojis…

Martin: …the same.

Emily: …and putting the gifs in my email. There’s a really great Snoop Dogg TikTok about reading the syllabus that’s gone out to all of my classes several times.

Martin: Nice.

Emily: …and so, I don’t know, I’ll be interested to see what the evals say about that… if they say anything at all, and the people who are evaluating my courses, their feedback on those things, but I think that that’s one strategy I found of introducing that informality in an online setting.

Rebecca: I had a couple of students indicate how much they really like emojis and things. My TA had done something that I thought was really stellar, and I sent her a metal

Martin: Nice.

Emily: Oh, that’s funny.

Rebecca: …like and emoji metal. She’s like, “I really like it when you do stuff like that.” [LAUGHTER[

Emily: Do more of that please.

Martin: Yeah.

Rebecca: Yeah, so I was like, “Oh, okay. I thought people would think I was really dorky.” So I just started doing it more…

Emily: Yeah.

Rebecca: …for the other students too. And it seems uplifting.

Emily: Well, and it’s like their language, right?

Martin: Yeah.

John: Yeah, and it’s authentic dorkiness, which I think is the key.

Rebecca: Yeah, definitely.

Emily: And that’s exactly what I thought when you said that Rebecca, like, don’t get me wrong. I’m pretty sure my students think I’m like a dork sending out this Snoop Dogg, whatever. [LAUGHTER] And I am, there’s no getting around that, but it’s endearing. [LAUGHTER] It’s a part of my charm.

Rebecca: Yeah, I wasn’t sure if it was gonna be charming or not. That was the key. Like, is this gonna be a turn off? Or is it gonna be something good? [LAUGHTER]

Emily: Yeah, it can go one of two ways. Yeah. [LAUGHTER]

John: We’ll include a link to the Snoop Dogg video in the show notes.

Emily: Ok.

John: I already have it because I’ve sent it out to my students as well.

Emily: There you go. [LAUGHTER]

Martin: Cool.

John: Are there any things that you’ve tried this semester that you hadn’t done in the past that you’re going to continue even in a post-pandemic world, in terms of your teaching,

Emily: I am really excited about Flipgrid forums. It’s like a discussion board, except that students record a video of themselves responding to the prompt and then I require that students reply to each other with a video message. And, it’s not without its issues. I recognize what those are. And at the same time, I feel like it’s been really great for me to get to know my students more personally than I would typically would and kind of a more standard discussion board format. And I think that students are getting to know one another better as well, because I see, when I grade them from week to week, I see that the same people are responding to each other or they’re saying like, “Oh, you talked about this a few weeks ago,” and I never really have seen that in a traditional forum. There’s something about the video that works really well. I only do it for the smaller class that I’m teaching. I couldn’t do it for a 100 person intro class, I don’t think, but it’s proving effective for my upper-division course, I don’t know if I will continue it moving forward, but I’ve really enjoyed it.

John: I’ve used VoiceThread, which is very similar. One advantage of Flipgrid is that, now that Microsoft owns Flipgrid, it’s a free service provided to educators. But one of the things I did is I allowed students to either use just voice or video, and they almost exclusively used just a voice. So they weren’t very comfortable sharing videos. But even when they were just sharing voice, it was in an asynchronous online class, one of the things that really struck me and many of the students commented on this in some of the other discussion forums is whenever they read something in the course from that person, they’d hear it in the voice of the student, because they’ve learned the voices of students and it created a little more sense of community or connection to the other students that was generally not there when they were text only discussion forums.

Martin: Yeah, I agree. I’ve never used Flipgrid. But I do think that I’ll explore that a little bit. But I will continue to use the blackboard discussion forums, or at least some form of online discussion. Also, I’m going to use Zoom for office hours and meetings with students. I find Zoom to be so great for advising and any sort of meeting with a student like, especially when it comes to… I had a student the other day needing me to find something about an assignment. So I was able to just share my screen, show them in the syllabus what I meant by whatever. I was able to show them how to make use of Google Scholar and how you can leverage that when you’re looking things up in the library website. And with that being said too, incorporating HyFlex, in pretty much everything I do. I was talking to Roger yesterday, and some students, even though their seniors and juniors are still having difficulty finding peer-reviewed articles. And so I told him, you know, what, I’m just going to go ahead and make a video that shows you how to use Google Scholar, how to use the library database, how to get what you need, and then I have that video, and I can just copy and paste it on subsequent Blackboard forums. But I also think that the asynchronous content that I’ve created over the last two years, especially a lot of that’s been created this semester, I’m going to continue to share it in subsequent classes and upkeep it. I think as we start to cater to newer students, people coming from non traditional backgrounds, having the asynchronous option in any classes, I think, would help break down barriers and help students succeed. And so that’s something I feel like this HyFlex approach to pretty much all teaching… at least, it’s easier in criminal justice. It’s not that easy in other courses. But for me, that’s something I’m going to apply to my classes until someone tells me I can’t.

John: And I think a lot of people this summer have created new videos and other explanatory materials that can work in any modality. And that’s something we strongly encouraged faculty to do in the workshops that we did last spring and over the summer as well. And it’s nice to see that. Students generally react really positively to having those video resources.

Martin: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John: Typically, new faculty orientation consists of this series of meetings where there’s a tremendous amount of information thrown at you all at once. This time, all those presentations were converted into videos that people could access at their own time and pace. How did that work? And or what could institutions do to make the transition easier? Because the type of transition you experienced is also the type of transition situation that many adjuncts will experience who are not physically located in the communities where they’re teaching. So even when the pandemic ends, I think there may be some lessons learned from this new faculty orientation that can continue beyond. What worked well from the orientation and what could we have done better to reach out to people who were not physically present.

Martin: So, one thing that I think worked really well is that, again, there were recorded videos that we could access, I think we didn’t necessarily need two days of sort of where you were on Zoom, I don’t think we necessarily needed that. I think one day would have been good. And then you should have been left with the videos like this asynchronous content. I think that helped me a lot, when I needed to look at how to do something, I was able to just quickly go on that Blackboard page and find the resources I needed. And if I couldn’t find it, I’ll just email my chair, and it would be fixed. So I think that was very good. I would much rather do what I did here, then go and sit with people in a building and do all that, like I get the social aspect of that. And that can be arranged, but what I’m going to orientation, I want to learn what I need to do to succeed in my job, because that’s how I work. So I like the fact that I was able to just sit there and focus on the content that was most necessary for me at that time, because there was a lot of stuff that I already knew, because I’ve already learned it at my previous institution that wasn’t necessarily pertinent to me. And so by allowing that asynchronous content to stay up for so long, I think that helped me succeed a lot. Do we need two days? No. One thing that I also think is very important is for departments on the department level to form a committee and create onboarding packets. That’s something I’ve pushed for really hard where I used to work and then it just kept on getting pushed away and away and away. But what people within the department think is important, that your department chair can just email you right when your contracts been signed and accepted, and then you know, oh, reach out to this person, if you need your email, reach out here, this is where you’ll get this. This is what you need. Reach out to this person for X, Y, and Z. I think those things, if you focus on working on them right now, and it’s just a document you can update over time, especially here at SUNY Oswego, where we use Google Drive for everything. It’s so easy just to invite someone to the document. So, I think a lot of pre-emptive stuff can be done. But, I will say I very much enjoy not having to go to campus and sit through orientations that I didn’t think was necessary to me, because it’s not my first rodeo.

Emily: I really like that idea, Martin, of having onboarding packets at the departmental level. I think that would alleviate some of the emphasis on faculty being proactive in getting what they need… that we were talking about before, especially considering how problematic that is for a variety of reasons. I think the orientation, I agree, I liked the videos, found them very informational. I like the breakout session that we have had, I think it was actually on the second day where we got to pick which group we wanted to go ask more questions to. I think more of that could have been beneficial, because we only had an opportunity to really speak with one group around campus. I wish that as part of the orientation, there would have been information on shared governance, the structure of shared governance in the SUNY system and on SUNY Oswego because it is a multi-level system bureaucracy, and it’s still not clear to me exactly what that order of things looks like, Who’s in charge of what. To some, like really clear mapping of the shared governance hierarchy. And just some really basic flowcharts on processes would have also been really, really helpful for me during orientation. Stepping aside from orientation, specifically, and thinking more about transitioning your life from one place to another. I think SUNY Oswego did a pretty good job helping us transition into the university system itself. But I really could have used some assistance with housing, some more formal assistance. And I did reach out, I think my acting chair is phenomenal. She put me in contact with people who put me in contact with people who put me in contact with people, I was talking to all these people, some of which I still have yet to see face to face. And that was all great. And I have a place to live here. But it was just a lot of work. on my end, trying to put that together. And the place that we’re in right now is not the best. It’s probably one of the biggest stressors in my life right now. And so had there been some more institutional support.. Like, I don’t know what that would look like. I think that that would have been really, really helpful. And I think that that’s probably the case, whenever somebody is transitioning into this position in general, but especially in the pandemic, when I couldn’t travel easily to the area and take a look at things for myself.

Rebecca: Yeah, that’s a problem for sure. Housing here has been an issue for a very long time.

Martin: Yeah, we had the same issue. Luckily, through Maggie, she connected me with the right person. And then bam, I found a place to stay. And then the person didn’t like that we had a dog. And so I offered him an extra hundred dollars a month so we could just keep the dog in there. And luckily, he went for it. And so now we have a place. But, yeah, it was a major stressor. And when you have to live in the Syracuse area, the cost of living is different there than in Oswego. And so it almost makes your salary less when you’re living outside of the area. So. when you’re an assistant professor making an assistant professor salary, you want to maximize that, and so by living in Oswego is much better. And so, yeah, I totally agree with you Emily, that’s one of the major issues.

Emily: To your point, Martin, it may be easier to find an adequate place to live in the Syracuse area, but I have never in my life experienced a housing market like the one that I tried to get into here in Oswego. I mean, it was just bizarre. And so it just does seem to be much more informal than in most places that I’ve ever lived. And that was a struggle, not being from this area. It really was the strength of weak ties for me is what made it so that my family and I could have a roof over our head when we moved here in July.

Martin: And I will say that living in Oswego is awesome.

Emily: Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Martin: I really like living here.

Emily: Yeah, I find it quite charming…

Martin: Yeah.

Emily: …and weird in a really great way. But I’m also holding my breath for that winter. {LAUGHTER] ‘Cause, again, I was born and raised in Texas, North Carolina for 12 years, we shall see.

John: We should note, just for people, not from Oswego. that Oswego is a city which saw a very big peak in population by the mid 1800s with the canal system, and since then the population has gradually declined with the loss of the industry. So housing prices are relatively low in the region. And there’s a lot of houses that are very old, with varying quality, some of which is very low quality and some of which is very high. But it’s difficult to find good housing. And it’s a bit of a search. It’s a challenge, especially when you’re trying to make those arrangements from another part of the country.

Rebecca: We always end by asking, what’s next?

Martin: I’m going to make sure I get tenure. That’s what’s next. I’m going to keep on crushing it and get tenure. [LAUGHTER]

Emily: What’s next for me, I will say regroup, recharge and reboot. And that was not a prepared line… [LAUGHTER] …noted for the record. That’s just all spontaneous. I don’t know if it makes a whole lot of sense. But yeah, just getting by, just taking the winter break that is around the corner, taking that time to breathe a little bit and to make some adjustments and then getting through the spring semester, and then getting back to some type of normalcy. I have to believe that’s on the horizon. So yeah.

Martin: Yeah, fingers crossed.

John: I think we’re all hoping for that. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: Indeed. Indeed. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been really helpful and I hope it’ll help multiple institutions really think through just transitions for faculty in general.

Martin: Thank you.

Emily: Thank you for having me.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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