453. Prequestions and AI

A growing body of research indicates that asking questions about concepts students have not yet studied increases learning. In this episode, Steven Pan and Judith Schweppe join us to discuss how generative AI can facilitate this technique by generating prequestions.

Steven is an Assistant Professor of Psychology and the Director of the Learning Sciences Lab at the National University of Singapore whose research focuses on evidence-based teaching approaches. Judith is a Professor of Educational Science with a focus on teaching with digital media at the University of Erfurt. Her research focuses on working memory, long-term memory, and learning.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: A growing body of research indicates that asking questions about concepts students have not yet studied increases learning. In this episode, we discuss how generative AI can facilitate this technique by generating prequestions.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guests today are Steven Pan and Judith Schweppe. Steven is an Assistant Professor of Psychology and the Director of the Learning Sciences Lab at the National University of Singapore whose research focuses on evidence-based teaching approaches. Judith is a Professor of Educational Science with a focus on teaching with digital media at the University of Erfurt. Her research focuses on working memory, long-term memory, and learning. Welcome, Judith, and welcome back, Steven.

Steven: Thank you.

Judith: Thank you, thank you for having us,

John: And thank you for agreeing to come on at times that are a little bit challenging. Could you mention for our listeners what time it is where you are?

Steven: I’ll go first. It’s a bit after 4:30 in the morning [LAUGHTER] here in Singapore.

Rebecca: Starting your day right.

Judith: And for me it’s 10:30 pm, so I’m about to go to bed after this recording.

Rebecca: Best way to end the day. [LAUGHTER]

John: Today’s teas are:… Judith, are you drinking any tea?

Judith: Yeah, in fact, I’ve prepared a ginger and lemon tea.

Rebecca: A good one for the evening.

Judith: Yeah, exactly, that was the idea.

Steven: Well, I sometimes drink tea. Actually, I should drink more right now. I just have water.

John: And Rebecca,

Rebecca: I have Golden Monkey today.

John: That’s been a while.

Rebecca: Yeah, it’s been a while.

John: And I have an Irish breakfast tea today.

Rebecca: Awesome. So we invited you both here today to discuss an article in the Journal of Applied Research in Memory and Cognition that you both co-authored with three additional co-authors, entitled “Using ChatGPT Generated Pre-Questions to Improve Memory and Text Comprehension.” But before we discuss your study, it might be helpful to talk a little bit about what is meant by pre-questioning, and what past research has suggested about the impact.

Steven: Well, pre-questioning is a learning technique that involves attempting to guess the answers to questions about information you haven’t formally studied or know much about, and then there is, after you’ve attempted to answer those questions, the opportunity to learn the correct answers from some form of instruction, such as a lecture, watching a video, or, for example, reading a text passage. So you guess first, then you discover the answers afterwards. That’s pre-questioning. It’s similar to, it could you even be considered a part of a class of strategies that sort of involve what you might call pre-instruction learning activities: do something in advance of formal instruction, and pre-questioning, along with those other strategies or techniques, can improve learning in a variety of circumstances, improving, as I mentioned, learning from videos, learning from lectures, learning from text. There are a growing number of studies showing that it has these kinds of benefits.

Judith: What’s remarkable about this is that learners typically don’t know the answers to these questions, because they only learn afterwards, so they guess wrongly or can’t come up with an answer, they don’t get any feedback, but still they benefit on the criteria test questions after learning.

John: What are some of the possible explanations for why pre-questioning is so effective in enhancing student learning?

Steven: So this is an active area of research, and there are many possible explanations. Just to name some of them, for example, one explanation is that pre-questioning sort of activates attentional processes that either make you aware of your gaps in knowledge and want to focus on finding the answer, or when the answer is presented, you notice it better, or simply when the instructional opportunity happens afterwards, you are more focused, and you are more primed to learn from it. So that’s a sort of an attentional class of explanations. Then there is, for instance, an error signal type of explanation, where you make a guess, and usually it is incorrect because of the lack of prior knowledge or instruction, and your awareness of that error, particularly when the correct answer is presented, there’s a discrepancy. You guessed this, and then the answer is something else. And there are potential mechanisms in the brain that are responsible for learning from those kinds of situations, and the pre-questioning triggers those mechanisms. So that’s a second possibility. There are other ones that involve, for example, your memory of making the error. Okay, I guessed this, and now this is the correct answer, and you sort of integrate this, and that becomes a more powerful learning event, because it’s not just you learn something, it’s you made a guess first, it was usually wrong, and then you have the correct answer, and that becomes a richer, more integrated representation that helps you better remember that information. So, those are three candidate explanations for how pre-questioning can improve learning. There are more beyond that, but those are some of the ones that come to mind.

John: One of the other ones that was mentioned in your paper was that it also activates prior knowledge to help prepare you to integrate new knowledge into that framework.

Steven: Yes, that’s also a potentially useful way to consider how pre-questioning may enhance learning, and this idea that it may activate that prior knowledge, so you are then better able to integrate the new information, you may be primed to learn that information, and so on.

Judith: And that explanation might even be more important in real life in class, because even when you ask students questions for a new topic, they will have some prior knowledge that they can activate, whereas in the lab we usually use texts that they know hardly anything of, so that the importance of prior knowledge is even stronger, maybe in class.

John: And however it works, it does seem to work. [LAUGHTER] So it’s an effective technique, whatever the specific mechanism.

Rebecca: And despite the evidence on the value of pre-questioning, you know that the practice is rarely used in the classroom. So why might this teaching strategy be so rarely used?

Judith: I think there can be several reasons. For one, the research field is still very young, so there was not that much time for the evidence to distribute to the public, as compared to retrieval practice, for instance, which has been far better known in the past years. And another reason may be that it may also feel weird for a teacher, for an instructor, to ask their students questions that they know they won’t be able to answer, and that might refrain some people from using pre-questioning.

Steven: Yeah, those are, I think, very good reasons for why pre-questioning may not be used that widely. I’ll add another one that’s relevant to the paper that we’re going to talk about, which is this idea that you need the materials to engage in pre-questioning, and particularly for students who know nothing or very little about the topic, which is sort of definitional requirement of pre-questioning, it would be very difficult for them to come up with questions on that topic to practice with, and also even getting them from instructors, instructors commonly, for example, in surveys, they’ll say that they’ll provide practice questions on occasion, but typically after instruction has occurred, rather than beforehand. So all of this points as sort of a materials or implementation challenge. Not only do learners and instructors not necessarily know much about pre-questioning, and it also does feel weird to use it, but even if they wanted to use it, they might not have the materials, either the time to come up with the questions or access to questions that are appropriate for pre-questioning. So there are a host of obstacles that make it difficult, at least in many circumstances, to use this particular technique.

Judith: That was the main starting point for our study, because it is not only recommended as a teaching approach, but also as a learning strategy. But for learners to use it on their own, it’s a lot harder than retrieval practice, because, as Steven said, you cannot come up with new questions before you know about the topic, you’re totally reliant on somebody else providing these questions.

Steven: Yeah, exactly. And with retrieval practice, sometimes it can be as simple as: “take out a sheet of paper and write down as much as you can remember about whatever you’re trying to learn.” You just retrieve it. You don’t even necessarily need to have a database of questions to practice, but with pre-questioning you really do need those questions, and if you don’t have those easily available, then it’s very difficult to engage in the strategy or technique.

John: Which brings us to your paper. What are the primary questions you’re investigating in the study?

Steven: Well, there are sort of a sequence, we sort of went from very simple and basic, and we got more and more specific. The first question was simply, if you use generative AI to come up with these questions, and you use them for pre-questioning, do they actually work? That was sort of the most simple question, and that was the first experiment focus. We then advanced to, okay, how do those questions generated by AI compare to questions that a relatively expert human being creates? Are they similar or different in efficacy if you use both human-generated and AI-generated questions for pre-questioning? And that was the second experiment. And then, for the remaining two experiments, we went into more fine-grained issues, specifically comparing AI-generated questions made using what we called a sophisticated or elaborate prompt that was very carefully engineered to generate the questions we wanted to see, versus a simplified or more basic prompt that any person could use without much training, so different prompts to generate these questions, and we compared that to a condition that didn’t use pre-questioning at all, but did complete an alternative activity. In this case, it was studying an AI-generated outline, so that was sort of a more rigorous test of the effects of pre-questioning to see whether using pre-questioning compares favorably to spending the same amount of time studying something else.

Judith: It’s an additional question concerned whether answering pre-questions generated by either an AI or human would generate to a different source, because if you think of a regular learning situation, you might generate as a learner your question with an AI. Well, meanwhile, the instructor might also generate the exam questions with an AI, but they might also be generated by the teachers. So, it might be worth knowing whether there is any decline in the transfer from one source to the other, and the same with the more elaborate prompt, compared to a basic prompt. If maybe a student would use a more basic prompt than a teacher.

Steven: Right, and that issue speaks to this idea of, shall we say, transfer or generalizability. So you ask someone in pre-questioning a particular question, and then you assess learning using that same exact question, that’s one way to measure learning, but as Judith just said, it could be different questions that the instructor generates, either by themselves or using an AI, or using different prompts, or whatever, and so a critical question really is, “What happens when the assessment, the questions used on that assessment differ in some way from the questions used earlier for pre-questions?”

Rebecca: So we’ve talked a little bit about the research questions. Can you talk about the design of the study itself?

Steven: So each experiment, these were online studies with online participants, adult learners, and in each experiment the learners would be assigned to either a pre-questioning condition of some type, or in some experiments a control condition where they didn’t have pre-questioning, or they studied an outline, or some other activity happened. So that happens at the beginning, they’re randomly assigned to these different conditions, and then they would engage in some learning activity, for example, pre-questioning, attempt at least two pre-questions one at a time. All participants would then, and to be clear, all of these experiments involve learning from an encyclopedic text, in this case, I think it was about brakes, the function of brakes, different types of brakes, so it’s sort of a great proxy for certain kinds of information that you would find, for example, in an engineering course, something like that. And so they engage in the initial learning activity, such as pre-questioning. Then everyone reads this passage on brakes, which contains the answers to the pre-questions, and then after that, after a short delay, then they take an assessment of learning, which is a series of questions about brakes, which include questions the same as used for pre-questioning, but also other questions that were not necessarily exactly the same. That’s the broad design. Of course, across experiments, there are variations, so to get more specific, experiment one, the one condition was pre-questioning, where they attempted AI-generated pre-questions before reading the passage and taking a test. The other condition had no pre-questioning, so they just read the passage and took the test. In experiment two, it was AI-generated pre-questioning versus human generated pre-questioning. So one group got the AI-generated questions, one group got the human generated questions. They all read the passage, then they took the test. And then experiments three and four were either what we call elaborate generated pre-questioning, the prompt that was used, or basic generated pre-questioning, again referring to the prompt that was used, or studying an AI-generated outline. So, depending on the group, they would have different activities before reading the passage, and then taking the test.

Judith: And in any of the experiments in which we contrasted different questions, both types of questions were also used on the criteria test, so that we could see differences between the tested questions and the untested questions, and in some cases even between new questions generated by the same source, either both AI-generated or both human-generated, and transferred to new questions generated by the other source.

John: A very well designed experiment, and one of the things that I appreciated about this was that it was an experiment that was pre-registered. That’s not something that happens in all cases, in all disciplines. Could you tell us a little bit about this process? It’s something I think that came up because of people attempting to replicate some past studies and not always finding that results were replicable. So, could you just give our listeners a little bit of background on pre-registration of studies?

Judith: We try to do it in a brief manner. You’re right, this originated in what we call the replication crisis in psychology and social sciences overall, in which several well-published studies did not replicate, and so there’s a counter movement right now, the open science movement, and the idea is to restore trust in science and psychological research. We want to be as transparent, as open, about what we are doing as possible, and there are several reasons for why some research findings are not that reliable. There’s a tendency for significant findings to be published more often than non-significant findings, so that we are rewarded for getting significant results, and even more for getting our predictions right. There’s a study that indicates that more than 90% of hypotheses in psychological studies turn out to be right, and that’s not because we’re so clever, that might be due to some questionable research practices. So pre-registration is one way to make sure that we write down in advance what we predict, how we conduct our study, how we analyze our data, how we decide whether a certain data point is an outlier, how we decide whether to include any covariate. So to write that down in advance, so that we’re not subject to our own biases, so that may be the one analysis that brings about the best result that we’re convinced that that was the one we wanted to do right from the start. No, we can look that up because we’ve written that down, and to make it transparent to everyone, you pre-register publicly, so you are the one who decides whether others can see it, but when you submit a paper, you can include this pre-registration, and the reviewers can see that the date of the pre-registration is really before you collected your data.

John: You mentioned that so many studies, and this is true, it’s not just in psychology, it’s also true in pretty much all social science disciplines. And two of the explanations for that are publication bias and something called p-hacking. Could you just explain a little bit of those two things for our listeners?

Judith: Yeah, the publication bias, so that indicates, as I just said briefly, that of the data that are published, most of them are significant, and that’s not realistic, because a lot of studies we conduct, they yield non-significant results, and the idea is that this is due to several biases in the publication processes. So reviewers and peer-reviewed journals are more enthusiastic for significant findings, researchers don’t have that much time to write up their findings, so they tend to focus on those that are more publishable and leave the others in their drawers. So this is also called the file drawer problem, that there are a lot of non-significant findings in the file drawers of lots of researchers in all the ivory towers, and this leads to us overestimating the size of published effects, because we don’t know about this heap of unpublished studies, and that’s a problem for evaluating how important certain effects are for us. And p-hacking is one way where one type of questionable research practice, because p is the value that indicates statistical significance, and the field has agreed that p that is lower than .05 is the threshold for importance, and this statistical significance is often mistaken for importance. And there are several ways to analyze your data that can influence whether your findings yield a p value below this threshold, and all these ways to treat your data are called p-hacking. So, you can decide to include gender as a variable that was never part of your hypothesis, but you can always see whether it makes a difference what gender the participants are, and that might bind some variance, so that your main effect is significant. You can first analyze your data, and the p-value is just above .05 and you think, well, just a few more participants, and they might be below the threshold, or you might notice that there’s this weird participant, which must be an outlier, and that often happens after your first analysis, and helps you get below this very important threshold. This often is not outright fraud, it’s just us being human beings and being subject to our biases, and that’s why the open science movement thinks research science needs the self-control mechanisms to be open with our data, with our materials, and with what we predict. And we are both committed to that, so it was important for us to pre-register the study and also to publish the data and the material.

John: Another way of expressing the issue of p-hacking is that if you torture the data enough, it eventually will confess. [LAUGHTER]

Judith: That’s nice.

Rebecca: So gruesome. [LAUGHTER]

Judith: Something else that’s related to this is also HARKing, that’s hypothesizing after the results are known, so that you don’t actually make predictions, but rather post-dictions, and then there’s this analogy to the Texas sharpshooter who draws the target after his shots, so that that is easy to hit bull’s eye, and that’s also often used to compare this research.

John: But your results are not subject to any of those issues, because you’ve done all these things to prevent that with pre-registering and sharing the data.

Rebecca: Seems like a good transition to results, huh? [LAUGHTER] Can you talk a little bit about the impact of providing the AI-generated pre-questions? I imagine that folks are really interested in this particular piece because it might save time.

Steven: So we were very excited to see that the AI-generated pre-questions were effective at enhancing learning, or producing meaningful learning, shall we say, across all the experiments. So, for example, in experiment one, just presenting two, I think, AI-generated pre-questions before reading a text passage, that was enough to enhance learning from that passage, and that enhancement extended not only to later questions that were exactly the same as the questions presented in the beginning, but also new, never before seen, questions, so there was a generalizable benefit to some extent. In the second experiment, we found that the AI-generated pre-questions yielded similar levels of learning as questions generated by competent human beings, so that suggests that you don’t necessarily need a human being to invest the time and effort to come up with the questions. An AI can potentially, an AI chatbot can come up with similar questions of comparable efficacy, and then in the third and fourth experiments, again, they were similar designs, those two experiments, both AI-generated pre-questions that were generated using a more sophisticated, detailed prompt, as well as those generated using a very simple prompt, they both enhanced learning relative to studying an AI-generated outline, so that shows the power of pre-questioning extends to not only using AI to generate the pre-questions, but even compared to using AI to generate some alternative materials that are used for some alternative activity. So those are the broad outline of the key results. Now there’s, of course, that other finding about, or other issue about what happens when the questions on the test are not the same as those that you were practiced on, or they were generated by a different source, and whether, for example, you practice with AI-generated questions, but then some of the questions on the test are generated by a human being or generated by a different AI prompt, or things like that, and I think one general way to describe those results, because they varied across experiments, was that we could still see across experiments some evidence that learning still benefits in those cases, so that it’s not essential that the questions that are used on assessment have to be exactly the same as the ones that were seen earlier. There is some degree of generalizability, although there was sort of a trend, I would say that as the questions get more and more different in source for the content targeted, the learning benefits may not be necessarily as strong, at least numerically, but there’s still evidence that the learning is not restricted to the exact same questions that you saw earlier.

Judith: And we were very happy about that, because that’s not always the case in pre-questioning studies, because often these effects are restricted to post-test questions that target the very same information, so that the transfer to these untested questions really excited us about these findings, and also the case that this very, very basic prompt, which just said, “Can you generate two questions for this passage?” worked, that really sounded feasible.

Steven: One thing I would add to that, we were really very excited by that finding, because literally that means that anyone practically could just use a prompt that is one line and come up with questions that are useful for pre-questioning or potentially other purposes. One thing I did want to note, though, is that when we were conducting the sequence of experiments that we were using ChatGPT, the version of ChatGPT was getting more and more advanced as the experiments progressed. So, by the time we got to the latter experiments and we were comparing different types of prompts, we were using a more advanced GPT version, and in that case, the questions made using, again a very elaborate prompt versus a simple prompt, they seem to be equally effective for the most part, which is again I think in part a reflection of how advanced the technology has become, and also how just generally how easy it is now to use.

John: Given that you’ve got these results, and it doesn’t require a very elaborate, detailed prompt, or even much knowledge of the subject, might you suggest that this would be a useful way of students learning things more deeply as part of their studying? Because students often use it to generate an outline, which was one of your control conditions there, and that was not as effective as having these pre-questions. Might this study suggest that this would be an effective study technique for students to use on their own when they’re learning new things?

Judith: I guess we would say yes. That was the idea, yeah. That was the hope to find evidence that it can work if they generate the questions on their own. We might also add a cautionary note to that, because we found transfer to untested questions, but that may not necessarily be the case for other questions. We noticed that there was some overlap between the questions generated, because all of them were constructed in a way that they were integrative, so they targeted more than one piece of information, and that resulted in somewhat overlapping questions, so the suggestion is a bit different compared to other studies, in which the new questions are totally different, and it might still be more helpful to get the pre-questions from your instructor, who will also post the questions for the exam, because they also tell you what this person thinks is most important, and that may be a valuable addition, but if your instructor doesn’t want to give you any pre-questions, because they don’t believe it’s effective, or because they don’t want to waste their good exam questions on students preparing for learning, that might still be good alternative to ask a generative AI to be a question generator.

Rebecca: I’m imagining that faculty hearing this are excited about the possibility of integrating pre-questions into their teaching methodologies. Do you have some advice about how they might do this, how they generate effective questions, or even like how many questions would be useful?

Steven: So, there are some tentative recommendations that we could offer, but again, these are tentative because we have barely scratched the surface of implementing pre-questions. We are still sort of exploring the efficacy and mechanism stage. Nonetheless, in terms of possible ways that the pre-questions could be generated in an effective manner, well, firstly, one thing I would note was you mentioned number of questions, so it seems at least in the studies that have been conducted thus far, the number of questions is not that many. For example, I don’t think we went more than four or so pre-questions, depending on experiments, and sometimes there’s just two. Why is that? Well, in part, because if you ask people many, many, many questions on something they know very little about, and then they have to try to find the answers afterwards, trying to keep in mind, say, I don’t know, 10, 20 questions is difficult, and so a limited number of targeted pre-questions on perhaps the topics that are most crucial is probably a good way to go in terms of number. Now, in terms of type of questions, you just mentioned the questions that we used were integrative questions, and one of the reasons why, besides what was mentioned, is that there’s some prior work on different types of pre-questions. Some pre-questions that have been investigated are so-called detail-oriented, that might just target a little fact or a number or a little detail, and then there are these integrative questions that might connect two concepts or different parts of a text passage, what have you. Those seem to be more effective at improving learning. So, in addition to the number of pre-questions, the type of pre-question probably I would recommend to instructors to think more about integrative pre-questions. Even if you want a student to learn one particular small detail, maybe couching it within an integrated pre-question might actually be better. And then there is a third sort of practical point that I just wanted to raise, which is that definitely keeping in mind that pre-questions, in a way, serve as almost like a introduction to the topic, so these are not the kind of questions used necessarily to really assess mastery in a retrieval practice sense: “Explain this concept or this theory that you’ve just learned.” If you ask such a question to someone who has not learned that concept, that theory, that question may be so difficult they don’t even know how to begin to answer such a question. Then it’s probably not the best type of question… more like a question that is in some sort of currently perhaps nebulous sweet spot of they can come up with some sort of guess, it’s probably not correct, but it’s also not so impossibly foreign that they look at this question, and think, “Well, I don’t know where to begin.” So, those are at least three tentative recommendations that I have about how pre-questions could be developed by instructors for effective use.

Judith: Something else I would like to add is that you can also first think about what do you want your students to learn the most. So, what are the most important aspects? Knowing that these pre-questions work best for what they ask for, you could make use of that and target the most important aspects with the pre-question. That’s also something related to our study, to think of the cognitive levels associated with your learning objectives, and to see that the questions are generated in a similar way, so that also guides the learners. We also looked at this in our pre-questions, and noticed that for the first experiments, the AI-generated questions were mostly on the lower cognitive levels of Bloom’s taxonomy, so mostly remember and understand, whereas the human-generated questions we used that were used in an earlier study, use comparisons, and that was not the case with our AI questions. So that was the focus of the fourth experiment, where we engineered a prompt that asked for comparison questions, and then the AI generated these questions, but only then. So that might also be something to take from this study that the Gen AI might need an additional prompt to generate this kind of question, but that might also be the case for a human being that thinks of questions that maybe we also need an additional prompt to not just ask remember and understand questions, but also target these higher levels that we name in our learning objectives, and to kind of reverse engineer our questions from what we want learners to take away from the learning material.

Steven: Yeah, and if I may add that Judith raises a very important point, which actually qualifies the finding about basic versus more elaborate prompts, even if you use a basic prompt, you know, generate questions, you can still add in there, generate questions that involve comparison. You can add some details that’s not necessarily required multiple premises in a very complex prompt, but some of those things actually might be necessary through even a process of a little trial and error to come up ultimately with questions that meet certain characteristics that are desirable for learning, including higher order type questions, questions that tap different cognitive levels, that promote the types of learning objectives you want to promote.

John: One of the things you were doing in the study is comparing AI questions with human-generated questions. Was there any apparent differences between the types of questions that humans generated and the types of questions that AI generated?

Steven: We did have sort of as an additional measure in the study… we didn’t tell them these were AI-generated questions, we asked them to guess who made these questions, and we would just give them all the questions that we had in a particular set and some were human-generated, some were AI generated. We just asked them, and they just could not tell, and so this is, I think, part of a larger challenge now, which is differentiating between AI-generated and non-AI-generated materials. Now, not only are the questions as effective as those generated by human beings, but also human beings cannot tell that they were AI generated, but I thought that was kind of a fun little thing, and it speaks to this larger challenge that we have, whether it’s trying to detect AI use in our students’ essays, other things like that.

Rebecca: We always wrap up by asking, what’s next?

Steven: Well, in my research group, and also in collaboration with Judith, we’re really interested in exploring a variety of aspects of pre-questioning, in terms of, for example, ways to implement it in authentic educational circumstances more successfully. So, for example, studies in the classroom, or studies exploring how you might integrate pre-questions into learning activities that are very common, like reading a textbook chapter, things like that. So we’ve explored AI-generated pre-questions, we’re very interested in implementation that could be easily translated to real-world practice, so that is one area of very active interest related to pre-questioning.

Judith: And then a related question in our labs… Well, I thought of it because it’s somewhat related to the current idea, because I’m currently working on a study with a PhD student where we want to investigate whether spacing, distributed practice, which is recommended both as a teaching strategy, but also as a learning strategy, but it’s investigated almost always so that the entire schedule, sticking to the schedule, that’s decided by the experimenter, and our idea was we really don’t know whether that works as a learning strategy, so we implemented it in a way that gives some responsibility for the learning, for sticking to the schedule, to the learner, and see whether it’s still an effective strategy, and also to see whether something like gamification might help learners become better spacers.

John: You’re doing some great work here, and actually that reminds me a little bit of the last interview with Steven and his co-author on another study that looked at classroom implementations of interleaved practice, because a lot of the interleave practice studies had been done in the lab and it was nice to see what happens when it was actually introduced in the classroom environment. You’re both doing some really good research, and we’re curious to see what you’re going to find in those new studies. Thank you.

Judith: Thank you.

Steven: Thank you.

Rebecca: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us.

Judith: Yeah, thanks for the great conversation.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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452. Revisiting A Curated AI Framework

Shortly before the start of the spring semester, Tim Curry joined us for an episode discussing his ambitious plan to create structured learning experiences for students using chatbots. In this episode, we check back to see how this experiment developed. Tim is a lecturer in the Department of Health Sciences at Northern Arizona University. He is developing AI applications for autism research and tribal health service while building Northern Arizona University’s Applied Health Analytics program. He’s also working on the completion of his PhD degree in health equity technology.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Shortly before the start of the spring semester, we had an episode discussing an ambitious plan to create structured learning experiences for students using chatbots. In this episode, we check back to see how this experiment developed.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Tim Curry. Tim is a lecturer in the Department of Health Sciences at Northern Arizona University. He is developing AI applications for autism research and tribal health service while building Northern Arizona University’s Applied Health Analytics program. He’s also working on the completion of his PhD degree in health equity technology. Welcome back, Tim.

Tim: Hi, it’s great to be back here.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are:… Tim. Are you drinking tea with us today?

Tim: I’m not right now, but I was, and the tea I had this morning was a spice blood orange tea. It was quite tasty.

Rebecca: Looked like it was in a beautiful mug.

Tim: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca: turquoise… ribbed…

Tim: Yeah, with a little bit of a, almost a goldish highlight on the ribbings.

John: A bit iridescent.

Tim: Yeah.

Rebecca: How about you, John?

John: I am drinking a Lady Grey today.

Rebecca: Oh, I have its companion, a British breakfast.

John: Very good. Earlier this year, Tim, right before the start of the spring semester, we discussed a plan that you had developed in which students would engage in a structured sequence of interactions with a chatbot tutor that you created in each of the course modules in your health science course. The course was scheduled to begin actually the afternoon of the day when we last talked. We’re following up today to see how this plan has worked out once it hit the actual classroom. First, though, could you provide our listeners with an overview of the course, because not everyone may have listened to that, or it’s been a little while, and just remind us of what the course is and how the AI activities were structured.

Tim: So, as a rewind here, so I actually use this in two of my classes. The first one being our HS 300, which is a class focused around the diseases we get as people and how we work in that space, in more of a public health focus. And then the second class was a fitness wellness class that’s focused on how do we do physical activity more of a clinical population focus, and it had that as the topic, and then it’s also our writing-intensive higher-level course. So, in both of the classes, we had a tutor bot. The way that it functioned was I gave them a file that I built out that was a learning file that the bot would read and would have an idea about what are the topics that the student needs to learn and then would work with them in a very Socratic style to help them learn the content and the depth that was required as kind of the minimum foundation points for them walking into class in the first day and they did actually fill in the questions I had in that file, and it was required to hand that in, as we could call it proof of learning.

Rebecca: So I’m picturing the first day. How did students react to your plan?

Tim: About what I expected, honestly, which was tentative. And that first day, and I’ll actually expand that, and say that first week, we had a lot of discussion in class about what does this look like, what’s the purpose of it, as we had, I believe, discussed about six months ago. One component of that first week was about roughly half of one of the first two days of class in that first week, they had built-in time in class for them to actually dive in, learn about this GEM that was the host of our bot, and actually get to start working with the first file for that first week, and get their hands on. And I’ll say that first day it was very interesting to hear about the reactions, and some students, within the first five or 10 were like, “this is not for me,” which is fine, because that was how it was built, was that they did have an option B that they could do without having to engage with the bot. Quite a lot of them had said, “I’ve never ever engaged with an AI like this before, and I’m a little uncertain, but I’m willing to go and give it a shot.”

John: Roughly what proportion of students chose to continue with it, and what proportion chose to opt for plan B?

Tim: Yeah, that’s a great one. And in fact, I’ll say that was one I was watching throughout the entire term, because they have to hand in this like proof of learning, which allowed me to kind of track what was the proportion. Roughly, the proportion was like 70% continued with AI, and 30% chose to go the more traditional text-heavy route. I’ll go and say this. I would argue in a 16-week term, I would say just off the top of my head that by about week six the students had settled into the way that they were going to engage.

Rebecca: That’s not too bad, about a third in.

Tim: Yeah, it’s not too bad.

Rebecca: How did it work?

Tim: Really well, I would say. Overall, there were definitely things, that within the first two weeks I hit the fun point that I’m sure all three of us have at some point, which is Gemini pushed a major change in their models and updated, and suddenly the AI tutor [LAUGHTER] wasn’t working the way I was expecting it to work. When I had trained it and done the last round of kind of making sure it was working, that was end of December, start of January. By the time we hit like week two of the class, the model had been adjusted and suddenly it just kind of wanted to go off in its own in right field and treat the student as if they were like a medical student and go in way too much depth. So after that, I realized very quickly in that week, too, like, “oh, we have a problem,” so very quickly went back, adjusted the system prompt, put up some more forms of constraints in a guardrail to rein it back in, bring it back in, and effectively the way I did it was to get the bot to do less explaining and focus more on explicitly what the student needed to learn and allow the student to drive where they wanted to engage further. And after that adjustment it seemed like that solved the issue and the students were able to better engage with the bot overall and I’d say overall, for both the AI bot and the textbook route, the big change of having these effectively notes that they were expected to hand in dramatically improved their readiness to engage in a flipped classroom, which is the way I teach, and so I would count that as a win period for the AI bot, the fact that at the end of the day the grades were effectively the same regardless of the way that they engaged. So I would go and put that up as a positive sign overall that the AI at least performed as good as the traditional way.

John: And in a first iteration that’s probably a very positive outcome, because often new experiments have some rough edges on them. I was especially curious about the performance of the Gemini Gem, because I was working with a group of 18 faculty in SUNY from various campuses who were experimenting with chatbots, and many of them started with ChatGPT, but then moved to Gemini, and they had very similar experience, that the GPTs in ChatGPT seemed to pay much more attention to the guardrails that were put in, while Gemini Gems seemed to go off in directions that were different from what the instructions were, and that caused a bit of frustration for several of the faculty, because one of the reasons they moved to Gemini Gems was because their campuses had Gemini, and they thought that would allow all students to have more equitable access, but they had begun in ChatGPT because the grant had funded Chat GPT accounts for them, but again students were complaining that the free accounts didn’t allow that much interaction with it, while those who had paid accounts had much better quality of interactions, so it was a trade off, and ultimately pretty much everyone who had that choice did stay with the Gems, but it did require quite a bit more training. So, I think your experience there was not unique.

Tim: And I’ll just go and say this as well. I did also one more adjustment I did in week three which further helped was, in Gems, you can have certain variations of it, right? Just go and turn on as the default that the student can go and turn off if they want, but generally they don’t, and I defaulted on the guided learning mode, and that further enhanced that Gem as well. 8:11

Rebecca: So it’s always interesting when you try something new and something goes awry, and obviously it sounds like you adapted well. How did the students adapt to this minor interruption, especially because it happened early on.

Tim: I think the biggest item in terms of the feedback was that I was very open that first week of “this is an experiment, we don’t know what’s about to happen. I don’t know, I know what I’ve done for my testing, no idea what’s about to occur here, and I want to know your feedback, so let me know. We’ll go and talk about this.” And opening up that window of this is an experiment, you are my group. If this doesn’t work, we’ll adjust and change. I believe that it allowed that space for a dialog to happen, and that first week we did half of one class where they had a chance to go and get in there, work on it. I got a lot of feedback from them in that class, then once we got in to week two, that feedback of like, “Hey, this took a really long time because it kept like wandering off over here, and I had to bring it back, and it was really annoying,” I think was the biggest response I had, and then after we got it tuned in, I began to hear more feedback about, “Okay, I kind of like this, because if I’m totally lost on what is this problem with the heart, why do I care about it?” It really allowed them to explore if there was an area or a disease that they really found fascinating, and it just gave them more freedom to go and explore that. So, overall, the response that I had from the students was, I’d say broadly, it was kind of two broad groups. One was: this was very intriguing, and it was about the same as what I’d expect if I read the book. I’d say out of the 70%, like roughly I’d say like maybe 10 to 20 of that was that group of like it was nice I didn’t have to pay for the book, and then the rest of the group was generally that they liked the ability to have that freedom to explore or to ask the bot for more help in a space as they felt need.

John: Going back just a little bit, you mentioned you have these chatbots that are trained as Socratic tutors on that module, and then students complete an assignment at the end. Was the assignment built into the chatbot or was it something that was a standalone, and how did you receive all that? Did you get a transcript of the interactions along with some responses or something else?

Tim: So what I did was I gave them a file that was in Canvas, and the chat bot understands how the file is laid out, and it has a set of questions and tables and cases and all of that stuff without the correct responses put in there, and so the student’s job was to start a chat with this bot and to give it the file, and so that the bot knew how to drive the engagement, and then what they did was, as they engaged with the bot, they would go through and fill out each of the components of this file, and then they would just go, and it was a hand in before the first day of class that week that we did through the Canvas site. Now, a big part of not only these classes, but just the classes I go and teach across the board is that I do a contract grade, so for these items, because the focus is on “I want you to engage with the content, I want you to learn it, so in class we can work on like going further and building out skills,” so they knew that as long as they completed all the work, it got marked as done. I wasn’t about to go through with a comb and dock them points for everything that wasn’t exactly right, but once they had that handed in, it unlocked the key for them, and then they were in charge of ensuring that they went through and reviewed the key to make sure that they were in the right space.

Rebecca: Seems like a good plan, when otherwise that would sound like a lot of grading.

Tim: It did work well.

Rebecca: And you said that the students who chose the textbook method essentially did the same assignment, right?

Tim: Yeah, so it was adapted for the textbook, but exact same idea. The plan, as well, was to keep the overall load on the students the same. It seems like, based on what they reported in evaluations, that was the case, that regardless of path, it was about the same amount of time to complete each one.

Rebecca: Besides the tech surprise, were there other surprises, things that you didn’t expect? Anytime you go into an experiment, things come up that you don’t expect.

Tim: I think the one that was unexpected and interesting, and I suspect both of you, being faculty, you’ll hopefully laugh at this, was HS 300, in particular, is a content-rich class. I mean, not only is it a 300 class, but human diseases, there’s a lot of them, [LAUGHTER] like there’s far more than we can fit in one class, so we only focused on functionally the major diseases for each of the body systems, and still there’s just a lot of content that you need to know, and the feedback that I had at the end of the day kind of made me laugh, which was regardless of the path that they picked, because now we were requiring them to show at least foundational knowledge prior to walking into class as a core component of this class was that they were spending three to four hours a week outside of class doing all this work and going and like preparing for class and that it was more load than what they were used to or expecting and a lot of the feedback was “and I feel like I learned so much more because of this.”

John: That’s a nice positive outcome. We don’t always get that. We often get the “this class is so much more work than I expected,” but it’s not always combined with “and it was worth it.” That’s a really positive outcome.

Tim: Yeah.

John: You had mentioned that you were using a flipped classroom approach, and earlier when we talked to you, you mentioned that you were using active learning activities. Could you talk a little bit about what a typical class would look like in terms of a typical day in the classroom?

Tim: I’ll actually expand, I’d say a typical week, because usually things span like day one to day two. So, a typical week, the first day of class, we go and start off, and the first thing that we do… well, after the “hey, this week in class… , and don’t forget about this,” all of that fun at the start of class was we would do a tRAT, and for those who don’t know, a tRAT is a team readiness assessment test, and it is classically done with these cards that look like a card I’d buy for a lottery game, where we would code effectively a multiple choice quiz to the card, and then they work as a team to go and figure out what do they think is right. If they’re not right, they have to keep working on it until they go and get it right. I’ve created a digital version of that, so we begin with that, not only to kind of like warm their brains up, because I would get them Monday evening at 5:30.So, a lot has happened. [LAUGHTER] So that helped them kind of get their brains back into our content for the week and help them understand, like, “What do I recall now? What do I need to go work on?” and then we would dive into one of two things, if we were having a bigger application week, which was a lot of the more impactful work, we’d walk through, here’s our work for day one, day two, here’s our task for the end of the day, and then they would just dive right into it, and in those cases, day one was like they were working with a small, and by that I mean no more than four of them in a team, a small team of their peers, and they would work on doing more of the engagement part, and then day two would be wrapping up that, and then doing usually a presentation to go and share out. So, an example of a week, this one was a hit. It was new in this format, and it seemed like it went over well. When we were talking about diseases of the lung, the pulmonary system has a lot of diseases that are infectious, a lot of ones that we would have to report to the state if you happen to get it, and even if it isn’t directly involving the lung, that might be the way it’s spread. So we wanted to introduce them to the fact that there are these things called an investigator that works for the state, and all they do is investigate potential forms of these that might spread that we might need to do some public health work on. So in the first day, they were handed their initial case that they had to go and talk with this AI bot to figure out what had the patient done, where were they at? They knew that they had TB, but they didn’t know anything else. And then they were allowed to expand their investigation to potentially up to three additional bots, and they were told you might have to talk to all three of them, you might only have to talk to one of them. You have to figure this out on your own. You have to do the investigation. So they went through the path and the process to go through and investigate. As I’ll just go and say they did have to talk to all three. The first one went and led them to two of the three bots, and then one of those two went and led them into the last bot. And then they had to go and figure out what do we think happened, and then our day two of class, they wrapped up that work, and we had a chat as a whole class about what did you find out, how do you think this spread, what do we need to do next, and it was actually quite a complicated case, but that’s the way that it spread throughout that week was to go and show them, like, hey, this is an airborne thing, it’s a dangerous thing, and this is a real job you might be able to actually get, and by being able to engage with the AIs as effectively a patient, they had to go through the process of the fact that one of the bots was extremely not helpful, in fact, actually almost like was very rude, and the reason for it was because of the circumstances built into this bot if they were found out to have a TB test that was positive, they had significant potential losses that would be a major problem for them. So that allowed them to actually engage and attempt to work through real-life experiences that they might actually have to go and deal with.

Rebecca: That sounds like a fun activity, that of course leads me to want to know how did you build those bots? … and a little bit of detail about using AI in that context.

Tim: Yeah, so using AI in this format is, I’ll say for myself, has not been a new thing, it’s actually been something I’ve been doing for a while. It started for me out pre- 2022 and the world exploding and changing on us, but it started before that, because in my exercise physiology course I used to teach, engaging with a client is really important, and learning how to do that, so back in the pre-AI time [LAUGHTER] I had used IBM Watson bots that you had to build very crudely when we go and look at then and now, where they had to work with this fake form of a client to pull out all the risk factors and try to understand what were their goals and how do I work with that, and it worked okay. It didn’t work great. It worked okay, because of just the inherent limitations. After we got into our current era, the last four years, roughly, that expanded greatly, and what I would do is I’d build out a prompt for the GPTs first, and now for our gems that included all of the different things I wanted, as like building, so it did include things like here is the background of you as a person. Here is a personality. Here are the, for example, in this case, if they had had any type of testing done, what are the tests? What are the results? What are the tests that we don’t go and know about within all of those? What are the ones that you immediately share? And then there might be additional forms of like a test, like maybe an X-ray of the chest, that unless the student asks, the bot won’t just offer it up. So, what are you allowed to just go and bring up? What are you allowed to bring up only after they go and ask about this thing? And then I did find that when we get into the disease space, where I want them to model the signs and the symptoms of a certain form of a problem. I need to give them exactly what are the symptoms you’re feeling, and I never give them strictly the textbook, because that’s usually not the reality. They’ll have some, but not all. And then I found that it was also very important that I put a very strict box around the bot, this is what you have, so you are a person who has a problem A, it occurred because of B, C, D, E, F, G. You’re not allowed to share any of this. It’s only for you to use to better drive your responses to the students, and so that as they ask about a thing like, have you had a fever, if I hadn’t defined that, it at least knows which way it should kind of push.

John: One of the things you had mentioned when we talked last time is that you had students engage in some self-reflection, and you referred to this a little bit earlier. What did they reflect on? Was it a metacognitive type of reflection, or was it reflecting just on the material? Could you tell us a little bit more about that?

Tim: So this actually, I won’t say that I invented it, because it’s not mine. I actually borrowed a resource from the American College of Sports Medicine annual conference three years ago in Boston, where there’s a really good discussion about flipped classroom approaches within the exercise physiology space, and one of the items that was brought up that I borrowed because it had been used in some research work was this weekly graded survey. So, in the Canvas shell, it’s arranged as a quiz, but it’s marked as a survey that is graded, and all that that means is once they go and do it, it’s just marked as check done, and it runs through a range of different things, and it’s the very last thing that they’re in charge of doing every single week of the term. So it begins with exploring how was the week overall, and I don’t say just for this class, I just say how was the week overall for everything, and that’s a multiple choice, and then we go and walk through, how well did you feel prepared for this week in class? How was the week for you overall in your life? Because we all know that we teach folks who are increasingly more stressed out right now, like I don’t know about both of you, I might have brought this up before, but I have students who, 50% plus of my class, is in six to seven classes and working one or two part-time jobs. They are incredibly busy, and then there’s other life that happens on top of that. So, having a feeling of like maybe they were off this week and maybe their life just took a bad turn in this week, so that makes sense. And then we went and moved into some more open-ended stuff, which included: What did you learn this week? What do you have in terms of a question? Were there any types of like a moment that was an aha for you (it’s fine if there weren’t)? And then we do a bit of goal setting at the very end, which is: “What do you want to do next week to improve on what happened this week? And then when you look back at this week: Did you accomplish the goal that was set for the current week? And then finally, just kind of a broad: “Anything else you want me to know, like did your car break down on the drive up from Phoenix, and you were stuck on the side of the highway for a whole day? And it’s been a thing that I’ve used for a couple semesters now, and overall it seems like it works very well, and the feedback has been very positive, in that a lot of the students are like, “I’ve never had a class require me to, and I’ve never thought about, stopping at the end of the week and reflecting over how things went,” and it’s helped them with a thing like, especially my students, who are those “got to have an A” students, which was me, in fairness of, they might have a bad week, and then when they have to stop and reflect, they’re like, “Oh yeah, I had to randomly work more hours than I thought, and I found out that my dad has to go in for a cardiac stent, of course it was a hard week.” And so it helps them kind of put the week in context better.

Rebecca: In the spirit of reflection, now that you’ve had [LAUGHTER] this experience over a semester, would you continue the approach? What are some things that you might do differently next time? This is your moment to reflect. [LAUGHTER]

Tim: Yeah, so reflection for me would be this, I think I wouldn’t, and I’m not planning on moving forward in exactly the way that we did. Learning that just the fact of Google will push adjustments to their models regularly, and it’s not always easy to go and track it down, that makes it a little bit unpredictable, and I think there definitely is time that could be clawed back because there are times when AI was just inherently not efficient. So in the current model I think there are improvements that could be made, and how I would improve this is I am very much a fan of OER, especially at the current time when things are just expensive, so I would want to create and provide content that provides that foundation that is a little bit more controllable, so I have a better idea of like this is the time that they’ll spend here, so I don’t say like it’s going to be an hour or two, and then bringing in that AI in a more limited way, but in a higher impact way, where instead of using the AI to learn, they’re going and using it as a way to apply and test their own knowledge in a manner that’s going to give them immediate feedback and allow a challenge to the way that they actually approach the content for that week.

John: One of the big concerns with the use of AI models is personally identifiable information. Were you concerned about that issue? I know the contract that Google provides with campuses is that they don’t use the data for training, but were there any residual concerns about that issue?

Tim: This is a great point, because this is a big thing that I work with our faculty on a lot, because with AI’s advancement so fast, it’s so easy to ignore the legal terms of use, which I know everybody reads in fine print. [LAUGHTER] And so for this spring semester I was not worried about that, number one, because as you’ve alluded to, we have a Google ed license, which explicitly prohibits them from training on our chats that are through our accounts, and as a part of that, I made sure that we had a pairing up with that, with ensuring to be very clear, I want you to log in through your college accounts onto this, that’s the only way that it’s like a guaranteed private, and part two, even with that, I don’t want you to put in anything that you wouldn’t mind having as like a TikTok post, as like a public thing. It’s here to help you go and learn the content. It’s not here to help you troubleshoot why you’re not [LAUGHTER] feeling great today. So I did go and build in a bit just to help our students better understand, like, what are the safe and unsafe ways to engage with AI in this format, because I don’t think that’s talked about enough in the world. Now, with that said, I will say that there’s a very interesting change on the horizon, and that’s because our institution has been… for quite a number of years now. We have both Google and Microsoft. Don’t ask me why, I don’t know why [LAUGHTER]… but moving into this fall we’re moving to purely a Microsoft license, so we no longer have the Google license, which has been an interesting change to find out about, because it’s been very recent that we’ve found out about it, that really affects this work. So, moving forward, we, we being myself and the faculty who go and teach these classes, we’re going to have a conversation over the summer about how do we manage this, because the Microsoft format is through the Copilot, and unfortunately the way that it works is I can make these – they’re called an agent in place of a Gem, however, once I go and push them for a student, at least right now, from what we’ve been told, it costs us tokens, which means that there’s an ongoing cost that’s not like a Gem, where it doesn’t matter how much they engage, it’s all wrapped up in that fee. This is a big change, because, as you know, as I suspect, both of you are feeling like finances are a worry for a lot of institutions, so we want to be very thoughtful. So we’re having to go and talk about this, about how do we move forward in the future, is this a thing where we keep it as a G em, and we’re just explicitly clear about you should put no private information in here, because even with a free account, there’s a fair amount of use you can do with these, so that’s a big change we have to go and figure out as we’ve moved away from the Google group.

John: That’s really unfortunate, because I know in campuses where people have had both the choice of faculty is to use Google tools and to use Gemini and Gems, both because of the cost and because Copilots development is behind the others. Even though it’s based on the Open AI model, the training and everything else is unique to Microsoft, and it’s designed for a business environment to keep information locked down and also to build based on the use of the chatbots created by the businesses that are running Microsoft, because it’s designed more for commercial enterprises than for academic enterprises.

Tim: Yeah, well, and I’ll just say, as an expansion, too, because depending on the institution, I mean, one of the things I want to look into as well is there are increasingly more open source models that we can use, and there’s plenty of techniques that, if you have the compute capacity, you could potentially train a larger model, just going and thinking, like maybe you train a Llama 4 and use that as a teacher to train a student that’s smaller that then we can host locally. So there’s plenty of alternates, but it requires you to have the proper not only compute and server capacities, but also the fact that you understand how to make that work. So that is a thing I want to look into, because I do agree with you, Copilot is much more on the business versus straight up education side. So it’s going to be interesting to see how this changes, and perhaps that’s a point to go and have a chat about in like a year after we’ve had a year to explore how have we adapted to the Microsoft model.

John: And that is probably going to be a much more of a transition than adjusting to the change in Gemini.

Tim: Yes, it will be. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: It’s a good reminder how quickly this landscape is shifting in the role that the changes in technology have, the role that these companies play in what we’re doing, the finances around it all, they all have an impact on what we do in the classroom. We always wrap up by asking: “What’s next?”

Tim: Yeah, [LAUGHTER]I think I might have alluded there. So, what’s next is for this fall, for both of the classes where we’ve used this in. First of all, one have to figure out what to do with the fact that we will no longer have G ems in an institutional license, so have to figure that out. And then two, how are we going to do adjustments with the classes to provide content in more than just text, because that gets a little bit boring. So, how do we provide the content foundation, and then back it up with applied learning through the use of an AI to further enhance learning? So, we want to keep moving forward with this idea. We just have some hurdles we have to go and jump over first.

John: It’s going to be a challenging experience moving forward, but I hope things go well.

Tim: Me too. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: I hope you’re a hurdle jumper, because they’re going to keep coming. [LAUGHTER]

Tim: Yeah, I think I might be sore by the end of this fall. [LAUGHTER] It’s going to be interesting to see what happens.

John: Going back to the multimodal thing, one of the people I worked with this year from one of the other institutions in the health sciences field had put a microphone in a mannequin and a speaker there, and they had voice interactions with a patient who was basically just a plain mannequin, but they were interviewing it and asking questions. They enjoyed the multimodal interactions, probably a bit more than just text interactions.

Tim: That’s a really interesting idea. I might have to follow up with you more about that, because that’s a really clever idea.

John: It wasn’t mine.

Rebecca: I immediately saw your gears turning. [LAUGHTER]

Tim: Yeah.

Rebecca: Well, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you, Tim. Thanks for joining us again.

Tim: Yeah, thank you. I’m sure we’ll follow up again in the future about how did the transition go. [LAUGHTER]

John: You’re not alone, because institutions are cutting costs, and many institutions, including us, have access both to Microsoft and to the Google tools, so we’ll see.

Tim: Yeah, we have some strong feelings as faculty.

Rebecca: Yes, we do. [LAUGHTER] All the big feelings. [LAUGHTER]

Tim: Yes.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

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448. AI-Aware Teaching

While there is substantial debate over the appropriate role of generative AI in higher education, one area of agreement is that AI cannot be ignored. In this episode, Annette Vee, Marc Watkins, and Derek Bruff join us to discuss what faculty need to know to be AI-aware in their teaching.

Annette is an Associate Professor of English at the University of Pittsburgh where she has been actively involved with AI initiatives. She is the author of Coding Literacy: How Computer Programming is Changing Writing and is co-editor of TextGenEd: Teaching with Text Generation Technologies. Marc is a Lecturer in Writing and Rhetoric and an Assistant Director of Academic Innovation at the University of Mississippi, where he directs the AI Institute for Teachers. Derek Bruff is an Associate Director at the University of Virginia’s Center for Teaching Excellence, where he supports faculty in integrating generative AI in their teaching. He is the author of Intentional Tech: Principles to Guide the Use of Educational Technology in College Teaching and Teaching with Classroom Response Systems: Creating Active Learning Environments. He is the host and producer of the Intentional Teaching podcast. Annette, Marc, and Derek frequently serve as keynote speakers at academic conferences and write frequently about AI and higher education on their blogs. Annette, Marc, and Derek are the co-authors of The Norton Guide to AI-Aware Teaching.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: While there is substantial debate over the appropriate role of generative AI in higher education, one area of agreement is that AI cannot be ignored. In this episode, we discuss what faculty need to know to be AI-aware in their teaching.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guests today are Annette Vee, Marc Watkins, and Derek Bruff. Annette is an Associate Professor of English at the University of Pittsburgh where she has been actively involved with AI initiatives. She is the author of Coding Literacy: How Computer Programming is Changing Writing and is co-editor of TextGenEd: Teaching with Text Generation Technologies. Marc is a Lecturer in Writing and Rhetoric and an Assistant Director of Academic Innovation at the University of Mississippi, where he directs the AI Institute for Teachers. Derek Bruff is an Associate Director at the University of Virginia’s Center for Teaching Excellence, where he supports faculty in integrating generative AI in their teaching. He is the author of Intentional Tech: Principles to Guide the Use of Educational Technology in College Teaching and Teaching with Classroom Response Systems: Creating Active Learning Environments. He is the host and producer of the Intentional Teaching podcast. Annette, Marc, and Derek frequently serve as keynote speakers at academic conferences and write frequently about AI and higher education on their blogs (which we’ll link to in the show notes). Our guests are the co-authors of The Norton Guide to AI-Aware Teaching. Welcome, Annette, and welcome back, Marc and Derek.

Annette: Thank you.

Derek: Thanks for having us.

Marc: Yeah, thank you, guys.

John: Thank you for joining us. It’s great to talk to all of you today. Today’s teas are:… Annette, what is your tea? [LAUGHTER]

Annette: I have to confess that we are out of tea season. For me, it is warm, and I’m on my third floor office, where it is not air conditioned, so I’m just drinking water. But I like tea. I like herbal tea… when it’s cold outside.

John: And Marc, are you drinking tea?

Marc: I wish I was. Our tea kettle in the office is broken today, so I have a very anti-tea Celsius that is a Kiwi Guava flavor, so it has caffeine and its liquid, [LAUGHTER] that’s the sort of the most related thing you can have with tea. But yeah, unfortunately, I’m like Annette, I don’t have access to good tea right now.

John: And Derek?

Derek: Well, I’m 0 for three. I am drinking coffee, [LAUGHTER] but I am drinking it out of my tea for teaching coffee mug.[LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: I think that might be blasphemous. [LAUGHTER]

Derek: I think I should get some points for having the on-brain coffee mug today.

John: Yes.

Rebecca: I think it’s good. It’s good.

Derek: Thank you, John, for gifting me a coffee mug when I saw you a couple of years ago.

Rebecca: It’s a tea mug. [LAUGHTER]

Derek: Not right now.

John: it’s a tea for teaching mug, and I think it was a coffee mug last time too.[LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: Yeah.

Annette: Get into some Wickenstinian conversations about definitions here. [LAUGHTER]

John: Well, I went to the POD conference with, I think, 48 tea for teaching mugs, and I think I came back with about two or three of them, because the whole place was filled with former guests from the podcast.

Marc: That’s great.

Annette: That’s lovely.

John: It was nice to be able to distribute them. And Rebecca, your tea?

Rebecca: I have British breakfast, nice and piping hot.

John: I have darjeeling tea today, which I picked up at the tea caddy at Epcot at the OLC conference last fall.

Rebecca: So we’ve invited me here today to discuss the Norton guide to AI-aware teaching, apparently, and not tea. [LAUGHTER]

Annette: It’s good because the conversation’s over otherwise. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: So, can you tell us a little bit about how this project came about?

Annette: Sure, I can start with that. So, this project was kind of a brainchild of Norton themselves, and I had been working with Erica Wnek, who is one of their fabulous editors there, and who works with composition, in particular. I’d been doing the Everyone Is an Author book. They wanted to add a chapter on AI for their next edition, which just came out, I think, in the fall, and from there we started talking about what else Norton might be able to do to support teachers with AI, and I started writing for a Substack, a newsletter that they launched, and worked with Erica primarily on that. It was the first time that Norton had done a Substack like that, and it ended up being reasonably popular, and then there seemed to be some demand for further guidance about AI teaching, but in particular teaching in the midst of AI that wasn’t just, “Hey, let’s lean into AI or here’s how we kind of route around AI,” but something a little bit more measured that was kind of the voice that I had been using in that blog, and so Erica asked me, “What would it look like if we did some sort of guide like that?” At first, I thought, “Well, there’s so many guides out there,” but ultimately I was interested, and even better was that they were really interested in recruiting some excellent co-authors, and so from there they brought on Marc and Derek, and so I can pass that off to them, which I think has really been wonderful for the project.

Marc: It has indeed. I really have learned a lot from both of you writing this, and it was kind of a sprint to go through this, and I think as we were writing it, we were both going through our own sort of basic just feelings about AI and seeing how other people were dealing with it too. We’ve been there for the. Last three and a half, four years, and asking ourselves some very deep questions about our own work with this technology, too, where this is coming to intersect, and trying to help faculty tred a path forward.

Derek: I’ll add that, as Rebecca mentioned, I’ve written a couple of other books on teaching with technology, and I think I have a writing voice that works well with Annette and with Marc, and with the goal of this project, a mix of what does the research tell us, to the extent that it tells us anything, what are the big ideas we need to be grappling with, and what does this look like in practice? I think that’s one of the things I really like about this book, is there’s lots of examples of how faculty are adapting and responding to AI in very concrete ways. That’s what I love to do, is to talk to faculty about what other faculty are doing, and help them see how they can adapt that to their own teaching. Yeah, so happy to be a part. And also, I would say I haven’t co-written before this project.

Rebecca: I didn’t know that, Derek. You reveal that now. [LAUGHTER]

Derek: I was a little skeptical. I kind of like to be in my own space when I’m writing, but this has been a really, really enjoyable process of drafting and getting feedback and revising and commenting and figuring out the structure together. I like the co-writing a lot more than I expected I would.

Annette: That’s really nice to hear. I want to say, too, that Norton brought us together, which I think is wonderful, because they just had like great vision of how we could each bring different expertise, which I think was like absolutely true. But the other thing is that I knew Derek and Marc’s work before this, and so I was really, really glad to be able to collaborate with them, and I do think, like BTS or other bands that the studio brings together, sometimes there’s just synergy, and it works. [LAUGHTER]

John: I really do like the title of AI-aware teaching, which I think fits nicely with Annette’s comment that it was somewhat in the middle, not at one of the poles, as many of the other books and approaches tend to be. Before we start talking about AI and teaching with AI, could you explain what you meant by AI-aware teaching?

Annette: So, I can start with that one. As Marc said, we were all in the process of writing this book, confronting our own feelings about AI in complex ways, and I think all of us had been wrestling with this, of course, before the book, because we’d all been working in this space for years, but the fact that I am absolutely an AI user, I find it really interesting. My work is in writing technologies, it’s the most exciting writing technology, certainly in my lifetime. So, there’s all these really interesting feelings, and then as a teacher, there’s these other feelings about students and shortcutting and the future of higher ed, and all these things, but the main thing is, as a technology, I think it’s just really important to be aware of what it is and what’s out there, and what that means is, for AI-aware teaching, it means understanding what the technology is and does, and not, you know, what it did three years ago, but what it’s doing now, and what are the possible future trajectories for it, and that includes all sorts of things about environmental impacts and politics, as well as the technology, and then also what students are actually doing with it, not what we would like them to be doing with it, or what they say they’re doing with it, but what they’re actually doing with it, so that involves a little bit of research and listening, and then figuring out what it is that we want students to get out of our classes, rethinking our learning goals, things like that, and then kind of recalibrating, given the current landscape, how we get to those learning goals that we have had, or revisiting those learning goals, maybe they need to be revised, and that is, I guess, my kind of sense of AI-aware teaching.

Derek: And I’ll add that I feel like there is a lot of discourse in higher ed that seems to indicate there are two camps: either you are refusing to use AI or resisting it, or you’re all in and you’re doing all these things with it, and I like the AI-aware framing, which is to say those could both be reasonable choices, but we need to understand what we’re dealing with, both the technologies and our students and our own teaching goals, and then make informed intentional choices. And I would argue that most faculty, once they’ve gone through that process, land on some mix of resisting AI in some parts of their teaching and engaging with AI in other parts of their teaching, and I think that’s okay, and I think we have a lot to offer in the book for faculty who are any mix of those two poles in how they actually practice AI-aware teaching.

Marc: Absolutely. I find myself sometimes in the middle of an assignment, designing assignment, being drawn into, let’s use AI, this aspect, let’s absolutely resist, refuse using AI in these different aspects, and then thinking about, from the student experiences, how they’re going to go through those same types of things to confront it. I think Annette’s point too is very apt for a moment too. The interface behind ChatGPT has not changed, but the models have underneath it, and the expectations I have from a lot of faculty is that they’ve tested these systems back in 2022/3, or 24 that they have a singular experience using them, and it was not very good or productive. Now things have changed pretty radically. These are not just language models, they’re, in theory, world models gainng the simulations of these different types of experiences, and so we have to be aware of what that is going to do for ourselves and for our students, and there are some, I think, very good benefits that can come out of this, but also be very cautious about it too, just trying to find that balanced pathway.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about the structure of the book? There’s a couple parts to it. Can you reveal the underlying structure?

Derek: Yeah, I’ll take a stab at that. The book has two parts, and like these books, you can read any chapter in any order you want. I never do that. That’s not who I am. I read things from front to back. [LAUGHTER]

Annette: You’re revealing a lot of things today about yourself, Derek. [LAUGHTER]

Derek: People tell me they read books in other ways. [LAUGHTER]

Rebecca: All these exclusives…

Derek: But, I do think part one is meant to be moved through somewhat linearly, and that it walks you through the AI-aware teaching idea, so that we’ve have a chapter on what AI is and what it does. We have a chapter on how students are using AI, as best we can tell from the research and the surveys and the focus groups that have been done. And so the goal of part one is to help you do those aspects of AI-aware teaching, and then hopefully land on an approach to AI that really fits your course and your goals, and to start to shape how you might communicate that approach to your students through policies or guidance. Part two is very much more a random access part. We have a chapter on in-class activities that are AI aware and out of class activities that are AI aware. We have a chapter on AI and reading, a chapter on AI and writing, a chapter on AI for tutoring, and so it’s much more about where do you see AI showing up in the particular pieces of your courses and your teaching, and what ideas can you get to help you make again more informed intentional choices in those particular aspects. We also have a chapter on AI and academic integrity, because that’s kind of the elephant in the room. [LAUGHTER]

Annette: …that’s the first thing everybody asks us at workshops.

Derek: So we put it last.

Marc: It is, yeah. yeah, yeah. You got to get through the book if you want to get to the last chapter.

Derek: Well, I do at least.

Annette: Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca: I like how it was almost an afterthought there, In the way that you’re presenting it, [LAUGHTER]like it really was an elephant in the room.

Derek: Yeah, because I feel like it’s where so many conversations start, but I don’t know that those conversations are always super productive. I think it’s much more productive to get more grounding in who our students are, what the tools are doing, what our goals are, and then once we’ve got some of that infrastructure, that kind of mental infrastructure in place, we’re in a much better position to make good choices about how we respond to academic integrity concerns.

Marc: Imagine that, approaching this from not an emotional standpoint, but one that’s actually based on evidence of those types of things. I kid, of course. I mean, look, a lot of people are at that really gut-wrenching situation three, almost four, years since ChatGPT was launched. I do think one of the goals that I had personally writing this book, too, was to figure out ways to help faculty move past that initial gut reaction of just thinking about ChatGPT, generative AIs, as a cheating tool, and to start thinking about more broadly about when is it acceptable to use this, when it is not. How can we articulate that to our students through our learning outcomes? And what we did, I think, a really good job in the book, too, is looking out at the world of academia, too, and finding wonderful examples from faculty in how they’re actually incorporating a lot of these different types of experiences for their students, and how they’re sort of wrestling with these questions too.

Annette: Yeah, absolutely. I do think that that’s really the most exciting part about this book, is that we feature so many really concrete, tested examples from teachers at community colleges, at research universities, teaching colleges, just like everywhere, and for a long time I ran our graduate training in the English department for teachers, and now I run faculty development for AI, and this book sort of answers a lot of questions of sources that I would like when I’m teaching those kinds of things, like what do I want to assign that gives a kind of theoretical background, and also that kind of trust students, acknowledges student agency, trusts teachers and their expertise in whatever disciplines they’re teaching in, because it is meant to be something that moves across disciplines, and then gives them a whole bunch of examples, and there’s not answers in there, but there’s a whole lot of things to adapt, and so hopefully that’s useful for working teachers.

John: As you’ve noted, one of the concerns that many faculty have is that students may use it in ways that are not conducive or supportive of their learning. And actually, Derek had a recent podcast where he was talking with some people in math, how earlier on it was easy to detect the use of AI, because AI tools often got things wrong, but that’s much less true today, especially for the paid versions and the deep thinking versions of these tools. So, what are some strategies that faculty can use to assess student learning and their skill development in a world where they have access to these increasingly capable AI tools?

[AWKWARD PAUSE]

Marc: Let’s keep the awkward pause in here… [LAUGHTER]

Annette: I do feel that awkward pause. [LAUGHTER]

Marc: I do. Well, I can take the lead here on this one, if you guys don’t mind, then I’ll hand it off. I think strategies are evolving. I think that how we are seeing these tools being deployed and marketed to students, too, is part of our awareness to see this sort of version of it too. AI detection is also changing alongside all these other tools as well. I’ve really leaned in personally for myself, and also included examples too, about emphasizing disclosure when AI is being used, both from the student perspectives, but I think it’s also important for faculty to start having these conversations themselves, too. We are not only seeing students use AI, we’re starting to see faculty now really adopt these in all parts of the course, including in some cases grading. So, if you’re going to use AI in that sort of manner, too, you probably want to think about disclosing it as just sort of a baseline expectation and giving some great examples about what, as I said, in a recent talk, too, there’s performative disclosure, there’s exhaustive disclosure, we give them everything, but then there’s authentic disclosure, where you want to have a conversation, we want to have a dialog about how AI is being used, because in some ways you’re genuinely curious about how this is actually being used by students, and if it can be able to support them, and there’s lots of analytics you can use with the course management system, too, to track student behavior. That’s one thing to kind of be there to just make it visible, but the main strategy there is that you really want to have a situation where you can have conversations with them in some way, shape, or form. That’s very difficult for a high enrollment class, or if you’re teaching six sections, which some of our faculty are doing, and can’t actually have those types of relationships,

Derek: I’ll add that what I hear fairly consistently from students through surveys and panels that I’ve been a part of is that they want some clarity on what the boundary lines are around what’s appropriate use of AI and what’s not, and there’s lots of different ways to try to communicate those boundary lines. There’s the AI assessment scale, which says for this assessment, these are the types of uses that are okay. You can do it at a course level and say it’s okay to use AI for figuring out a hard concept or brainstorming ideas, but you can’t use it for drafting, or you can use it for editing. We’ve seen lots of different examples of how faculty are helping to define those boundary lines for students. In some cases, to Marc’s point about good conversations, they are figuring out those boundary lines with their students through conversation. They’re kind of coming together to come up with good policies around this kind of thing. And I think, though, an important piece of this is that most students want to know kind of what’s allowed and what’s not allowed, right? That’s a big piece of it. But I think students are also concerned about what’s going to help my learning and what’s not going to help my learning, and they are not always in a good position to know what uses of AI are going to be conducive to their best learning. They’re novices, they’re figuring out how to learn. We may have a better idea of that. We may be figuring it out too, in many cases, because AI is so new, but it’s not just about how can we secure our assessments. And from the student’s perspective, it’s not just about how can I stay out of trouble, but there’s a strong element of how can we actually help learning happen in the ways that are meaningful, and figuring out those boundary lines together is one way to get at that shared goal that we and our students both have.

Annette: I think that’s important, that shared goal, because one of the things that we know from what students tell us about their experiences of AI in classes is that they are really frustrated about a lot of what’s happening in that there is lack of clarity in policies, most of what they see in policies is do not do this, rather than here’s some good ways to use AI, and they find that sometimes infantilizing, I think, and unrealistic, and then they also don’t like it when their peers are overusing AI, and that kind of cheapens their own experience and degree and their effort, and so they have a lot of feelings about it. Marc started out by saying, talking to students, I think that’s really the crucial thing, and I think there’s ways you can do that and certainly we talk about that in the book, you can do that in large lecture classes and through asynchronous surveys, all sorts of ways. It’s possible to hear from students in a lot of different ways, but I think that’s super important, and also one of the reasons why I said in the answer to the last question about student agency is that we need to make sure that students are getting what their goals are out of our classes, we have external goals and things that we want them to get out of classes, but they have their own goals, and they have their own interests in learning, as Derek mentioned. So, can we help them align those goals that they have to what we’re doing in the class, and help them articulate how this class is going to help them in the future, because our students are also nervous about job prospects and all sorts of things, and I think the more that we can lean into the fact that we’re there to support their learning, we can help all of those conceptual things. The other thing that we talk about in the book some is the University of Sydney two-lane assessment, which I think is a helpful framework, thinking about, on the one hand, secured assessment, and that is like proctored exams or things where you have a really clear idea that the person who is represented here in this space is the same person you’re assessing learning of this particular person, and then you’ve got a lot of spaces of open assessment where students are doing homework, low key, et cetera, they may or may not be able to use AI. And so, I think that one of the reasons why we get that question all the time, about like, how do you stop students from cheating, or whatever, in workshops, is that the labor that teachers are going through is so significant right now, and nobody wants to do the surveillance and policing, zero teachers want to do that, and trying to figure out how do you actually assess what a student is doing is so much work, and so if we can narrow that space down, and then let students play around a little bit more with here’s possible positive ways of using AI to enhance your learning, in ways that they may not necessarily know already. As Derek said, they want to work on their learning, but it’s not always clear what that looks like, and that’s part of why we have teaching experts in the room, that is us, right? So we’re giving all very complicated answers to this, and that’s because there is no silver bullet. We keep coming back to that in the book. There are no easy answers, and we do not give easy answers in this book, because they’re just aren’t present.

Marc: That’s absolutely right. And she also hit on something that I think we were all really attuned to, is the labor of this going through the sort of response to AI. Doesn’t matter if you want to engage AI to or refuse it to, you’re still going to have to really focus on work, and part of what we’ve been doing too is trying to find different strategies to support faculty, so that’s not so overwhelming, trying to think about even taking some steps from, like, Jim Lang’s small teaching moments to bring up these types of conversations, because we realize that not all faculty are going to have support from wonderful teaching and learning centers. Some faculty are going to be contingent and sometimes not have much support at all, too, and they still are going to want to practice some type of AI awareness with their class and their actual day to day lives, so labor, I think, is a really big one we’ve been talking about as we go through it.

Rebecca: I think one of the spaces we get a lot of questions is on the asynchronous online environment, in particular, because it’s extra challenging to figure out ways to do assessments or to do quick checks for learning in that environment where it’s completely vulnerable to AI in the ways that maybe we have historically done these things. Those that teach in in- class settings have moved to using blue books and some other things occasionally. What advice do you have for some faculty that are specifically in this asynchronous environment that are hitting some slightly different challenges than you might encounter in a face-to-face class.

Marc: I think the best piece of advice I could offer, because I drafted, I think, a chapter that we try to talk about this, is to breathe and not take this personally. It’s not against you, and there’s certain things you can control. Sometimes you have options with your modality you pick as a teacher, sometimes that’s picked for you, but you can also really search for ways that you are more present inside of your online class that makes it more embodied for yourself and for your students. I’m doing that myself now too, with my hybrid and online classes too, trying to be more there with them, having more conversations, and just also making myself more available to them too, because one thing that I think we’ve all noticed is that if you are doing an asynchronous course on autopilot, not only is that very prone to AI misuse, but also there’s a debate too, if you’re not there as the teaching expert, that you’re not there as the person in the room, too, what is necessarily being lost if a student is going to use AI in that context? So that does really reveal a lot of our practice that we’ve gone through to start thinking about it. For the security aspect, too, there are layers of things that you can do in these courses. You can, if you’d like to engage a lockdown browser for some assessment types, secure it. That’s not going to work for everything, but you can also switch over and think about doing a mix of video assignments. I do a lot of work instead of the discussion board in my online classes with videos. I don’t do the talking head thing anymore, too, where they just read a script, which, because that script is generally generated by AI, I have them actually write something or do something else there with, if they’re doing a multimodal project, share their screen and work in real time on the screen too, or they do a recording of that asynchronously, so I want them actually working in practice, showing me that process, because even the AI is involved in that too. They’re still working through those decisions, they’re still thinking about those things. So, there are some strategies we can use. They are going to be complicated. I do think we need a little bit more support from our course management systems to work with us, especially now that agentic AI is here. How many students know about agentic AI, I think is a very good question. I think most of them will associate generative AI with ChatGPT, just like Google is synonymous with search. I don’t think they’ve risen to the point, too, of they’re all going out to use agents to go through and crash their courses. I would actually say that faculty are maybe more aware of that than students are, which is a good thing to start thinking about where this is headed, but it is something to be thoughtful about as we go forward too, because as these systems become more and more advanced and also more autonomous in what they can do with the different workflows, it’s not just gonna be students that are going to be adopting them, we have news that Canvas is going to have an AI teaching agent there as well, with certain limitations and guardrails, but this is just sort of the start of this new version of working with these tools, and we need to start thinking about what sort of boundaries we want to put in place, both for students and for ourselves with them.

Derek: I think for the online space, as you say, Rebecca, the online asynchronous is kind of the perfect storm of AI problems. I’ve been thinking that there’s an impulse to try to solve that problem through better course design. If we can have more transparent learning objectives, if our assignments are more authentic, if we can combine those, so students know here’s why I’m doing this project, and here’s what I’m going to get out of it, and it aligns with my personal and professional goals. Those are all things that are going to help students resist an unhelpful use of AI and lean into the hard work of learning. I don’t think that’s sufficient. [LAUGHTER] I do think that’s necessary. I think that’s good teaching to begin with. I do think we also need to have a cybersecurity mindset that says there’s going to be bad actors who are using tools that are problematic, and we’re going to need help from our IT infrastructure to figure out how we can block things and prevent things. I think there’s sometimes an impulse just to do that, right? Like somehow we can technology our way out of this problem. I really do think we need both. I think we need better curricula that better align with students’ goals in more transparent ways, and we also need to think about the technology tools that we’re going to use. So, one of the metaphors I think I shared with our author group was the notion of a locked door, so I have a locked door in the front of my house. It’s my understanding I haven’t tried this, it’s my understanding that with about an hour and a few simple tools and YouTube, any one of us could figure out how to pick the lock on the front of my door. The technology itself is not super secure, but it communicates to anyone coming by, you’re not supposed to just walk in my house, you need to ask first, and so sometimes it’s tempting to think about the kind of anti-cheating technologies as like a secure barrier, like we’re going to keep out all of the cheating, we’re not going to keep out all the cheating, we’re going to keep out some of the cheating, but we’re also going to communicate what those boundary lines to students are a lot more clearly to say these are signals we give to students to say don’t do this and please do this instead. The research on academic integrity says most students don’t cheat because they’re evil people, [LAUGHTER] mostly it’s because of the current environmental situation that they’re facing. And so if we can create those signals and boundary lines that help students make a better choice in the moment, I think that’s a lot of the good that we can do in this case.

Annette: I love that metaphor of Derek’s. I think it’s really helpful, but one of the things that signals is not only to the students who would be cheaters, who might, if it were just a little bit easier, make a different decision, but it’s also indicating to students that their fellow students are getting the same message, and so there is a “here in this space we respect academic integrity, and that means you should also feel comfortable doing the real work and leaning into the hard work of learning,” as Derek said, because they do feel like suckers if they’re doing that hard work and their peers are not, even if it’s not on a curve, you know, whatever, there’s like that deep inherent feeling of unfairness, so I think that’s really crucial. Marc brought up the point of agentic AI, and how that might be more of an issue in online teaching, and that maybe faculty are more aware of it now than students, which is maybe a good space for us to be thinking about that. One of the reasons why I feel like I’m not as worried about agentic AI is that it is so clearly an academic integrity violation. Something else is impersonating you and doing the work of you on a platform, which isn’t to say that it won’t happen, of course it’s happening even now, but that casual, like, is this or is this not against the policy? It’s really against the policy you survey students, and they’re like, “No, flat out, that is just absolutely wrong,” versus, “well, this policy says no AI, but it doesn’t go into details, and I did some brainstorming, but I didn’t use it for writing,” like that is “who knows, like maybe,” they weren’t really specific. So I think that’s more the space that when we talk to students, we can help them think through, “Okay, this is why I really don’t want you to use AI for brainstorming… for these specific reasons here, and maybe it’s good in other contexts, but not here.” And so this is why I think agentic AI, certainly we should be paying attention to it, but I just do not envision a future in which all college students are absolutely botting their way through their degrees.

John: You talk about a number of strategies that can be used in terms of getting student buy-in to reduce the excessive reliance on AI, but are there any other strategies that you can think of that might be able to deter students from using AI in ways that are harmful?

Derek: So, I can think of a couple more. We’ve talked about the big ones around having transparency with students about learning objectives and what they’re going to gain out of this learning experience, we’ve talked about more authentic assignments that kind of connect more with students’ interests. I think a lot of faculty are experimenting with alternative grading schemes that are changing the motivational landscape for students and giving them more opportunities to revise and resubmit and try again. That’s going to take some of the high stakes away that might lead students to take shortcuts. Again, not a silver bullet, but it’s part of those environmental factors. We talked about online courses, and it’s easy sometimes to forget that even in online courses our students are humans with bodies in real physical environments, and so I’m seeing some faculty start to think creatively, like Marc was saying, about how could we do some process tracking where they are doing some work, and it’s recorded, or are there assignments that are going to get them out of their laptop zone and into the real world to do something that’s connected to your course? Again, not a silver bullet, but adding that to our mix of engagements, I think, can help students shy away from shortcuts. And the other thing I would say is, I referred to this earlier, students are learning how to learn when we encounter them. We are probably better learners than they are, maybe not in all cases, but we’re experienced academics, we’re pretty good at learning. AI is changing how we approach learning in our own disciplines, but what I would argue for is giving students more opportunities to do some metacognitive work, reflecting on their own learning in our courses, and thinking about how they used AI. Was it helpful? Was it not helpful? They had to read a hard chapter this week. What were the strategies they used to make it through that hard chapter? Which strategies were more or less helpful for that? And some of those strategies may involve AI, and some may not. Our students are going to go, and they’re going to have access to AI tools when they leave us. Hopefully, we can equip them to use those tools with some level of discernment, and that involves some self knowledge and some metacognitive thinking, and so I think we should start to build those opportunities in our courses for students.

Rebecca: Well, you’ve teed this up nicely, Derek. Thinking about the workplace and how AI is used in the workplace, are there ways that we should be rethinking or adjusting our learning objectives for our courses to either cycle out some skills or particular things that maybe were in there before, and put in some new things. I think at the top, Annette, you talked a little bit about a moment to reflect on [LAUGHTER] learning objectives and potentially take it as an opportunity to revise.

Annette: Yeah, absolutely. Derek used the word discernment, and that’s a word we really hooked into in the book, is thinking about how students can exercise careful judgment about when to use AI, when not to use AI. We all know a dozen examples of contexts in which people have used AI in places that are absolutely inappropriate, either for human means, either for signing off on something that shouldn’t have been signed off on, hallucinations, inaccuracies, all sorts of things, and I feel like my goal is to have students [LAUGHTER] not do that, like don’t put us in the headlines, you know,[LAUGHTER] which I think is something that goes over well with administrators at any university. But, really it’s like, how do you make good judgment on what AI looks like when you go into the workplace, and there are so many workplaces that really are leaning in, and it is kind of unregulated in a lot of ways. It’s surreptitious, it’s tacit, it’s the secret cyborg that Ethan Mollick talks about, and so I think it is really important for students to not just like, “here’s how you do prompt engineering,” but something that’s much more sophisticated about how are you supplementing the knowledge that you have when you’re using these tools.

Marc: Yeah, the goal with discernment, too. I mean, I’ll just give you an example, too. I just spoke with our law school, and they are getting a lot of interesting signals from the legal industry about how they want AI to be used and not used. You can actually go on to the AI hallucination case database. Someone’s actually set this up. There’s 1300 hallucinated cases, along with the sanction that the judge, who, of course, was very upset, found out AI was used in a way that created fictitious case law. So there is that issue too, of using AI inappropriate.

Derek: And just to clarify, these are real lawyers who have submitted briefs to courts where there were hallucinated content in those briefs, and they were caught on it and called out and punishment. And there’s a website that tracks all this, and I think it’s just a weird, strange world we’re living in, where that continues to happen, and someone is tracking all of that.

Marc: Indeed, yeah. And to make it even stranger now, the opposite end of the spectrum is they’re hearing from a lot of corporate interests too, is that when they go to bill them for their hours, they want to have AI listed there, not as disclosure for hallucinations, but how much money did you save us by using AI, or did you use enough AI. So there are some really wild mixed signals, depending on what your discipline is, about what your industry is, as well, too. And helping students navigate that is a big challenge. Helping faculty now navigate those questions, too. It’s like, okay, do I need my students to learn about AI to avoid hallucinations? Oh, wait, you have to learn about AI because you’re being billed for it if you don’t use it enough. So, it’s really fascinating just to see this play out. That’s just one example. We have this in different industries too. I’ve talked with folks in hospitality management. AI is a massive tool in that industry right now, and they’re having some issues that they’re doing this with too much AI for the audience and upsetting them too, but also, having that same sort of situation too, where your company you’re working with, or you’re supposed to be working with, is demanding you use AI to cut overhead. So it is going to be a challenge to navigate, for sure.

Rebecca: So, are we revising our learning objectives?

Derek: I think, to Marc’s point, I think it depends a lot on the discipline that you’re in and how things are shaking out. So, like in computer science, the goal of learning how to write basic code is less important now. The goal of figuring out how to evaluate the quality of some other code that you’ve been given, whether it was written by a human or an AI or not, the kind of reading and evaluating code that’s more important now. Over in a writing class, though, writing the first draft is kind of the equivalent to drafting that code, right? Is writing the first draft not important because AI can do it? I don’t think so. I think the ideation and brainstorming that happens during that first draft is super important, and so similar moves with AI in different disciplines may be thought of very differently in those disciplines because of kind of what’s under the surface there, and so that’s why I think a lot of these conversations, around learning objectives in particular, need to happen within the disciplines and within the fields, particularly if those disciplines are having some conversations with how the workforce is changing.

Annette: One of the things that we talk about in the writing chapter, to kind of extend a little bit what Derek was talking about, is that there are different important aspects of the intellectual process across different aspects of writing, so I teach in an English department, and that means that that ideation, the brainstorming, the writing is kind of the argument, and that’s the work. I also spent eight years working in a neuroscience lab, and in that lab I did some of the writing. That was inconsequential, because, like, I didn’t design the experiments, I didn’t, I mean, sometimes I actually did sleep deprive [LAUGHTER] the rats, but I didn’t really do the work, the intellectual work of the lab, and so I didn’t get an authorship credit, rightly so. And so when we look across disciplines, it is really important. This is why we keep saying in the book, we trust you to figure this out, is like you have to think about like what is the intellectual work that’s happening in your class and in your discipline and for your students, so that you can pinpoint that intellectual work and make sure that it’s enhanced or at least not undermined by AI. And then maybe, such as what Marc is talking about with the legal profession, you need to integrate AI or help students think about how they might thoughtfully do that, because they’ll need to have that skill moving forward,

John: And by connecting to what people in the fields where students are likely to go into when they graduate, it can create more authentic learning opportunities where students are using AI in the same way they might be expecting to use it later, I think. We’ve talked a little bit about all the concerns that faculty have, but there’s lots of ways in which AI might be useful to assist with student learning. Can you talk a little bit about some ways in which AI tools can be helpful in increasing student learning?

Derek: So, I’ll jump in. I’ve had a journey on this, because I feel like when I started writing with these two, I was the like all in on AI, and let’s use it to augment our teaching and then create new learning experiences for students. The more I went through the writing process, the more I’ve talked with faculty this past year, the more mixed I am, and the more kind of avoiding AI piece has been a much more important to think about, like we do want to protect the space for students to learn in meaningful ways. That said, here’s my current metaphor for thinking about this. [LAUGHTER] You’ve probably heard of the forklift in the gym metaphor. If you want to move weights around in the gym, you don’t bring a forklift in and move them, you go in and you lift your weights. That’s the point of the exercise, is for you to do it and to let your muscles get that strength training. Yes, the forklift will move the weights, but that’s not the point. Some uses of AI are like that, they are doing the work for students, they are moving the weights for students, and the students aren’t getting anything out of that. But I would argue that there’s another machine that actually you do find in gyms, which is the treadmill. I’m a runner, when I want to run and it’s 35 degrees outside and raining, I don’t want to run outside, I want to go to the gym and run on a treadmill. The treadmill is not doing the work for me, but it is creating conditions under which I can do the work, and so those are the uses of AI that I was initially drawn to, and I continue to be drawn to. How can we use AI in ways that are going to create new learning opportunities for students without robbing them of the exercise themselves? And so that’s things like having students critique the output of some AI chatbot that’s doing some task associated with your course. It gives them a chance to practice the knowledge and skills they’re building. This can be a tricky assignment if the AI does too good of a job in whatever you’ve asked it to do. There may not be enough to critique, but lots of faculty are finding places or particular AI tools that still have kind of big flaws in them. We have one example in our book of a math faculty member who had an AI generate flawed proofs to mathematical statements, and the student’s job was to evaluate those proofs. That’s a great opportunity for practice. Other faculty are having AI give feedback to the students on their work, and I think you have to do that in a thoughtful way, so that students aren’t just kind of taking the AI feedback. As gospel, that they are in a position where they can question that, maybe compare that to feedback they’re getting from their peers on a particular assignment. You also don’t want to kind of abdicate your own role of giving students feedback, so thinking of AI-generated feedback as one step in a process that later involves you giving feedback to your students. But well-designed prompts to AI can generate really useful and actionable feedback for students, and so that’s a treadmill kind of thing. And I guess the third big category I would mention is custom AI chatbots that are designed to simulate certain types of interactions or conversations for students, so that they can practice talking to a client or talking to a patient, or what have you. That’s a treadmill kind of use of AI, and a lot of faculty are having a lot of success with that, in part, because the fuzziness and unpredictability of an AI chatbot becomes a feature, not a bug, of that type of activity. The fact that it’s unreliable and contradicts itself is okay, because that often happens in the types of professional settings that we’re preparing students to enter.

Annette: One additional thing I think teachers are doing, which is super exciting, and I saw evidence of this in the faculty development seminar that I teach at University of Pittsburgh, is teachers are starting to basically vibe code their own apps that are supporting learning, which is just amazing to see, actually, because here is this opportunity to create this nichey little thing that is not going to be served by some big platform and subscription blah blah blah, it’s like I teach this particular really difficult concept. It draws on these different databases and government websites, and blah blah blah. We always have trouble with it. Students struggle to put this all together. It’s really hard to visualize, etc. Or you can ask Claude to make up a cool interface where students can play around with it, and then actually really get a good sense of this complex thing that I try to teach. Or here’s this visualization thing in a science class of we’re looking at a sample on their microscope, and you can change it into a diagram, and that can make it a little more easy for students to tell what it is, label the parts, things like that, and those kinds of real-time transitions across modes, say from image to diagram, or the interfaces. I hope that we see an explosion of those kinds of teaching tools that teachers are able to innovate with using AI on the back end, then, so, like, students aren’t directly using AI, but they’re interacting with the results of AI.

Marc: Yeah, I think for me the easiest way to start is to define AI’s role in the sort of relationship you have with your own teaching, and also set that up for your students to give it a specific role, develop rapport with your students, that level of trust as you go through this to see if this is effective in their learning outcomes. I am a little bit concerned about the fact too that some students have very expensive subscriptions to certain AI tools and services, while others are using the free plan, and what that’s going to do for assessment, and also equity and accessibility issues too, going forward. But you only get to find that out if they’re talking to you about this, if they’re doing this openly, and so when you have that rapport set up there too, like I’m doing right now, my advanced class about AI and society, my students are now given free rein to design things that they like with AI, after knowing about it too, and showing me and teaching me how they’re using these tools to learn, which I think is really cool, and as Annette mentioned, too, a lot of them are vibe coding now with Claude, which is just wild. When we were doing this six months ago, too, Claude really wouldn’t do a very good job. You do some very simple sort of things. Now we have some students vibe coding entire simulations of video games that are pretty impressive, and actual apps too. And teachers can do the same. So, once you’re comfortable with it, once you have that rapport there too, you can really start going into the creative possibilities about what AI can do to help. The challenge there is that there isn’t kind of a limit to it. It’s very hard to basically say where this learning stops with the technology when you can design so many different things based off of your imagination, and that is something to just kind of be thoughtful about, too, because it is a lot to just kind of press faculty on as well, especially if there are just one or two different use cases. Well, it’s this technology’s like clay, throw it on a pot, you can really turn it into anything that you want. And my response from some people have been like, “that’s a lot to take in,” like, “yes, it is.”

Rebecca: Just don’t forget to ask for accessibility features when you’re vibe coding,

Marc: Exactly, exactly. It’s a big thing.

Rebecca: So, we’ve talked a little bit about, well we’ve talked a lot about ways that generative AI might be able to be used to enhance student learning. In some of those discussions, we’ve talked a little bit about how it might also support teaching. Do you have any additional examples on how AI might be used to enhance our teaching?

Marc: Yeah, I’ll give you one that I’ve been using personally, that, like many faculty, I think I was in a bit of a secondary sprint here to try to bring my courses up to Title II compliance, and we got a reprieve that was sort of last minute, but it’s only a year-long rep, so we are still going to have to make sure our additional materials are fully accessible to be compliant with federal law. And I actually used a version of Claude to go through some of my course materials, and set it up to look at the different accessibility guidelines. I thought I’d done a very good job six months ago, and it turns out that no, I missed quite a few things, and it was actually very good to have that sort of experience for an AI tool to go through and sort of check your work. So, I think having AI as a tool that could sort of audit certain things – accessibility is one of them too – but also going through some of my course learning outcomes and seeing the ways that an AI system might look at that and compare it to a different university’s course learning outcomes. How up to speed am I and my peer institutions, and give me some options. I really do think if we were using AI iteratively, we can kind of make sure that we are the ones that are staying in the driver seat, if you will, and really center both not only student agency but in this case, teacher agency, to make sure that they’re making the right choices, and giving yourself some good options with AI to go through that process can be very helpful, and in my case, very eye-opening to me about these types of situations. I will say, my course, I had really done is one of my summer courses that I had not run in about two years. [LAUGHTER] I was just like, “oh yeah, I did that,” and no, I did not actually revisit that for accessibility concerns from two years ago. So AI can do quite a bit.

Annette: Yeah, like Marc, I’m very excited about the possibilities of AI to augment all of the details of teaching that we do, not the kind of human connection and the grading and the assessment and the reading and that kind of thing, but I think Marc’s example about how to make a course more accessible is excellent. The other thing I’ve been using right now is we have an institutional subscription to Claude, and I’ve used the MS 365 connector now, which basically hooks Claude up to my Outlook on my email, and what I found is having semantic search on my email is like a game changer. It’s just like I can ask questions of 15 years of emails and folders and all sorts of things, but I can ask questions of it that help me summarize conversations that are revived. It helps me right now think about my year-end report, like reporting that we have to do. How much time did I spend and what did I forget about the things that I did? Inevitably, you always forget things, and Claude is helping me locate those things right now. I have colleagues who have used Claude to design things that help fix the somewhat broken scheduling system that they have to deal with. It’s all these things that are super essential to the infrastructure of how a university runs, but there’s a lot of technologies that are either too big, clunky, they aren’t specific to whatever things that we need to do, and I think that I absolutely agree with Marc that the more we’re practicing these things as faculty, the better we are at understanding their limitations, their possibilities, and these are things too, like if I had a secretary, then I guess it would be replacing my secretary, but I don’t. This isn’t like undermining the intellectual work that I do as a professor. It’s not putting somebody out of a job, but it is really making my reporting more accurate and better. And so I think it’s important to recognize those possibilities.

Rebecca: I think that gets back to something you guys were talking about earlier, and using it to do some of the tasks, but it’s not the intellectual work of being a faculty member.

Marc: It’s also not the relationship aspect, too. That’s the big thing that, to me, again, part of AI awareness is just where are you going to put some boundaries in place, too. I use these tools all the time, like Annette does, but there are certain things I don’t want to do with my students. I’ve told them I’m not going to do this to write letters of recommendation, I’m not going to use it to answer emails, I’m also not going to use it to grade. Those are my sort of boundaries. Other people are going to be very different what they set up, but to me the best thing to do is just put yourself in conversation with that and start considering where you are going to draw the line and why.

Annette: And the other thing to note, too, that what I love about the way that Marc is talking about this is he’s really open with his students about that, like I’m not going to use it to grade, I’m not going to use it to do this, and I do think that as we ask our students to be transparent with their uses, it’s really important for us to be transparent with them about the uses that we have of AI, and I think they have some suspicions, they are frustrated, they’re interested. The students have all sorts of feelings about faculty uses of AI, and we need to take that into account when we use them. But I don’t think the students would care about me using AI in my email, [LAUGHTER] not for the writing of emails. I don’t use it for the writing of emails, but like for searching, like what are all the things I did for this committee for my department.

Marc: Now they’re not going to care about that, they’re going to care about the writing of emails. I agree, and you know the big thing to think about too, and I know we’re kind of dragging on the question, but this fall it’s going to be four years that high school students have had complete access to ChatGPT to generative AI coming forward. They’re not just going to be Plato exiting the cave, they never were entering our classes. They’re going to have experience using these tools, resisting these tools, and having that. And having this sort of conversation with them too, I think, is really important to think about their own agency when it comes to using or not using AI.

John: And the things you’ve discussed are ways where we can free up some time, so that we can have more time to devote to students, but there might be also some ways in which we could use AI directly to perhaps improve our teaching. One of the things I’ve done with faculty is have them use AI tools to help put their assignments in a TILT framework to make it more transparent to students, because we know what we mean when we ask students to do an assignment, but they don’t always know that, and that can be a nice way of evaluating it, to have an AI tool read it from the perspective of a student and put it in terms that may be meaningful, or perhaps to evaluate a syllabus for inclusive language and things that might get past us without the use of an AI tool, or use it to suggest some active learning exercises if we were mostly doing lectures, for people who want to move away from that, but aren’t quite as comfortable.

Marc: Yeah, absolutely. And there is an element of humility in that, too. You’re asking a system to help you perform your job, and that is something that I’ve talked with a lot of faculty about, that for them, they’re like, “no, I’m not going to do this,” but like, try it. Here’s an exercise, see if it is. And generally, there is that sort of aha moment when we do this in a workshop. They’re like, “oh, wow, so yeah, this is actually kind of helpful for me.” This is something I might take back and show to my colleagues and help them understand what’s going on too.

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking, what’s next?

Derek: I’m excited that the book is coming out this summer. That’s a big what’s next for me, I think, to help support that and to continue these conversations. I’ve been reaching out to a lot of the faculty whose work we mentioned in the book to have them on my Intentional Teaching podcast, and so I’m excited to continue some of these conversations in this audio format this summer.

Marc: Like Derek, I’m very excited about the book too, trying to plan what level of support that I can bring to faculty from a lot of these examples that we go out there to do lots of workshops and also lots of different engagements, both internally here at my university and also externally too. So happy to see that basically pop up and be out there in the world too, starting this summer for the ebook, and then the print book will be out at some point in time, early in the fall.

Annette: I’m excited, also like my co-authors, about the book being done. It’s always a big project, as Marc said at the beginning here, it’s a real sprint, it was a really intensive timeline. To take a commercial publisher and get something from conception to publication in less than a year is unbelievable, which is kind of the pace of AI, and it shows Norton’s priority for the book, too, which I was happy about. So, yeah, what’s next is, well, I’m working on an academic monograph about a long history of AI, and so I’m excited to do that. I feel like we learned so much in the process of writing the book, like all of the different worked examples from the teachers. I really am so grateful for the teachers that were happy to share those examples with us and with other teachers through this book. What I’d really like to do is I’ve been integrating some of those examples again with permission and workshops and things like that, and then to do that work at home too at Pitt and think more cutting edge about what we can do with the technologies that we have access to locally, and how I can work with the incredible colleagues that I have here at Pitt, and the students, how we might further student research too, which I’ve been working on here at Pitt too. So I’m excited about that next chapter, and I really am excited to learn more from other teachers, especially with the new innovations with vibe coding and all those kinds of experiments. I think we are on the precipice of some other hopefully interesting pivots in the ways that we approach education.

John: Well, thank you for joining us. We really enjoyed the conversation, and we’re really looking forward to seeing the book when it comes out. In fact, we’ve listed it as a reading group we’ll be running on campus in the fall, so we’re especially looking forward to seeing the final version.

Rebecca: Well, thanks. This was really great.

Annette: Thank you so much.

Marc: Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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447. UDL at Scale

The Universal Design for Learning framework is often adopted by individual faculty for particular courses. In this episode, Tom Tobin joins us to discuss the potential benefits associated with an institution-wide adoption of this framework.

Tom is an internationally recognized scholar, author and speaker on technology mediated education, especially copyright, evaluation of teaching practices, academic integrity, accessibility, and universal design for learning, which is a topic we’ll be talking about today. He helped found the University of Wisconsin Madison Center for Teaching, Learning, and Mentoring. Tom is on Ed Tech Magazine’s Influencers Dean’s List, and has been honored with the Wagner Leadership Award in Distance Learning Administration, and he is one of EduFlow’s global top 100 learning influencers. Tom serves on the boards of Advances in Online Education, The Online Journal of Distance Learning Administration, and the Oklahoma University Press: Teaching, engaging and thriving in higher ed series. We’re very glad that he’s made time to be with us with all these activities. His books include Evaluating Online Teaching, The Copyright Ninja, Reach Everyone, Teach Everyone: UDL in Higher Education, Going Alt-Ac: A Guide to Alternative Academic Careers, Implementing UDL in Irish Further Education and Training, and what we’ll be talking about today, UDL at Scale: Whole-Campus Universal Design for Learning, which is coming out this summer.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: The Universal Design for Learning framework is often adopted by individual faculty for particular courses. In this episode, we explore the potential benefits associated with an institution-wide adoption of this framework.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Thomas J Tobin. Tom is an internationally recognized scholar, author and speaker on technology mediated education, especially copyright, evaluation of teaching practices, academic integrity, accessibility, and universal design for learning, which is a topic we’ll be talking about today. He helped found the University of Wisconsin Madison Center for Teaching, Learning, and Mentoring. Tom is on Ed Tech Magazine’s Influencers Dean’s List, and has been honored with the Wagner Leadership Award in Distance Learning Administration, and he is one of EduFlow’s global top 100 learning influencers. Tom serves on the boards of Advances in Online Education, The Online Journal of Distance Learning Administration, and the Oklahoma University Press: Teaching, engaging and thriving in higher ed series. We’re very glad that he’s made time to be with us with all these activities. His books include Evaluating Online Teaching, The Copyright Ninja, Reach Everyone, Teach Everyone: UDL in Higher Education, Going Alt-Ac: A Guide to Alternative Academic Careers, Implementing UDL in Irish Further Education and Training, and what we’ll be talking about today, UDL at Scale: Whole-Campus Universal Design for Learning, which is coming out this summer. Welcome back, Tom.

Tom: Thank you, John and Rebecca, it’s a pleasure to be back on Tea for Teaching. Thank you for having me.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are… Tom, are you drinking tea with us today?

Tom: I am. I have some Pure Leaf Unsweetened Iced Tea. So that sound of ice cubes that you hear that’s my preferred form of my iced tea.

Rebecca: Sounds nice and refreshing.

John: And I have spring cherry green tea today. Given that we are apparently in spring, the snow has stopped at least for a few days, so we’re moving into spring here.

Rebecca: I have Lady Grey today.

John: Very good, one of my favorites. So we’ve invited you here today to discuss UDL at Scale. While most of our listeners are familiar with UDL to a greater or lesser extent, could you at least provide a brief overview of the UDL framework to help set the framework of the discussion?

Tom: Absolutely. Universal Design for Learning, or UDL, is a framework based on how we learn as human beings. So it’s based in neuroscience, fairly loosely, if I’m being honest. That when we learn anything, we have to activate three different chemical pathways in our brains. We have to have a reason to learn something. We have to have the content that we’re learning, and we have to be able to reinforce it, practice with it, tie it to other things that we already know. And so these three phases of the learning process, which are themselves a pretty good simplification of very complex chemical cascade in our neuroanatomy, they correspond to three different things that we can do as designers to help people to get started and stick with us when things get challenging, have the information to be able to learn it, and then to show what they know and practice with it. The neuroscientists at CAST in Boston, way back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, they discovered that if we give people one way to get started or take in information or practice, then we’re leaving out other ways that people could engage with that stuff. So what they said was, make more than one way, make multiple ways for people to get engaged, for people to take in information, and for people to practice, and people will choose which one seems best to them in the moment, and that helps the learning to stick. So Universal Design for Learning asks us, as instructors, developers, designers, to make multiple ways that people can get engaged, take in information, and show what they know.

Rebecca: Can you tell us the origin story of your new book, UDL at Scale, and its relationship with your previous work?

Tom: This is a very different book than my previous two books on Universal Design for Learning. When I did Reach Everyone, Teach Everyone: UDL in Higher Education with Kirsten Behling and then when I did the Universal Design for Learning in Further Education and Training for the Irish government, those were practical application based books. People were hungry to have, how do I do this in my own classroom or my own institutional design? That was at an individual level. People wanted to have the nuts and bolts of, what do I do when I’m designing a lesson or an activity or an assessment? One of the big challenges that you started to see over and over again is that whether it’s by law or by policy or by people adopting good ideas, we’ve been putting the burden of making things accessible on the shoulders only of instructors. And we also have not been giving them any release time or extra money or a graduate assistant, or we’ve not taken any work off their plates in order for them to be able to make their materials and engagements more inclusive and more accessible. So it’s not actually a wonder that only about 10% of instructors, wherever we look, have adopted inclusive design techniques of any kind, let alone a specific one, like the Universal Design for Learning Framework. Because of that, when I would talk with boards of trustees, college presidents, provosts, deans, campus leaders, and I would say, “You know that you have these legal requirements.” In the United States, we have the Americans with Disabilities Act. In Canada, it’s the Accessible Canada Act. Worldwide, there are laws that apply to the design of content and materials, and we’re not even doing that really well. So when I would talk with campus leaders, and I would say, you recognize that there is this requirement there, but there’s also an opportunity there to lower access barriers and keep our students with us at greater rates, helping with student persistence, student retention, their satisfaction as alumni. Everybody said, “yeah, those are great ideals, and you know, they’re part of our mission and our values, and we just don’t have the people or the time or the funds to be able to do that widely.” So I wrote the book UDL at Scale as an advice guide and a how-to-manual for campus leaders who think they don’t have the resources to actually get that stuff done. They do, and it’s actually when we think about lowering access barriers, not just in the classroom, not just putting the burden on instructor shoulders, but when we think about training everybody across all of our service touch points: the library, mental health counseling, academic counseling, IT, the media services team, you name it. Training all of those service touch points, to be a little bit more inclusive, to give a few more options, to lower accessibility barriers. It turns out that’s a really good financial decision. And so that was the genesis of the book.

John: In terms of that financial decision. What does the research tell us about the effect of UDL on student success, completion, retention, etc.?

Tom: Oh, this one’s great, because we actually do have research about the impact and effect of inclusive design changes, and every leader at every campus has been tasked with being a change agent. We want to move our institutions into spaces where we are making changes because they are driven by the needs of our employer bases, the needs of our students, the needs and vision of our institutions. So here’s the data, folks. Students, are five times more likely to earn a credential when they feel that they have a voice in their education, when they feel that they have a choice in how they move through their educational paths, when they feel a sense of belonging, that they are a part of the institution and its culture and its community, and rather than apart from it, when they feel like they have some agency, like they’re not just being told, “do this, do that, do the other.” That they have some say in how they move through their conversations with a college or a university, and when they have a sense of safety, that they are psychologically okay to be wrong, to explore, to get things wrong, to fail at things and come back to them. Those five things: voice, choice, belonging, agency, and safety. When students say “yes, I felt these things” during their educations, those students are five times more likely to persist and earn a credential with us. So when we think about all of the touchy feely aspects of it, that actually translates into money, that translates into tuition dollars, that translates into students not dropping out or stopping out as much as they otherwise might. And a lot of different ways that we can approach that have to do with access barriers, and we’ve talked about this in other books, but instructors aren’t the only teachers on our campus. Your media services people are teaching students how to engage with materials and content. Our librarians are teaching students how to discern good information and reliable and trustworthy information from slop that’s out there on the internet. and on and on and on, right? So our registrar is teaching students how to navigate the systems of the college or the university through the catalog and the various programs that we have on offer. So wherever we look at engagement with students, they are, in many cases, teaching engagements, and so we can design for those engagements in order to give people the kinds of choices that you heard about as we started our conversation. Multiple ways to get started and stick with it, multiple ways to take in the information that they’re learning about, and multiple ways to take action or express themselves once that they’re engaged with our service areas across all of our service touch points.

John: When you talk about people being five times more likely, is the benchmark of that students in high school or middle school and so forth, in terms of the probability of going to college and acquiring a degree? Because we do have over half of the students who enter college leaving with some sort of a credential, at least, on aggregate. So to get that number, it would seem like it would have to go back a bit to an earlier stage.

Tom: Oh, I’m actually not even talking about being that ambitious in our research. What I’m talking about is of all the current students who enroll right now, regardless of whether they are 18 years old and coming out of high school, or whether they’re 50 years old and coming back to re-skill. Out of all of those folks, you are correct. About half of them end up with a credential after 6, 7, 8, years usually. So the myth of the undergraduate who gets the degree in four years, that full-time student, is kind of a unicorn. At the same time, when we think about the 50% of students who drop out temporarily or stop out altogether, the number one reason why people don’t receive a credential is financial, “I can’t afford to continue now, or I can’t afford to continue at all.” And the research is fairly clear on this one, that the majority of people who stop out or drop out by financial reasons, it’s for $500 or less. So a lot of colleges and universities have now implemented micro-forgiveness programs, where if you owe less than $500 we’ll just write that off, and you keep going. And that’s an investment in the student, and it turns people into degree earners at far greater rates. But what’s the number two reason? If the number one reason is financial, what’s the number two reason why people stop out or drop out? It’s time, it’s the clock. We are all trying to put our educations into busy schedules. We have work responsibilities, caregiving responsibilities, military service, we just live far away from campus, whatever it is. If there’s a reason why people are busy and trying to put things together, and they don’t really fit all that well into the 24 hours of the day, those reasons are out there. So universal design for learning helps make processes go a little more smoothly. Helps students not to have to call back three times to get their question answered with IT. Helps for there to be less rework, and that’s actually one of the central arguments of the book, is that we’re actually making things a little bit more efficient for us as providers of services, and we’re also making things smoother and easier for our students in terms of process. We’ll talk about academic rigor later, but your question is an astute one, and the research that I’m citing in the book is fairly narrow, taking our existing pool of people who start, how many of them will finish?

Rebecca: Well, it’s certainly a compelling argument to implement, and we were talking about the time of not implementing. It costs a lot of time if we have inefficient and terrible processes. [LAUGHTER] We also talked about the burden on faculty trying to meet accessibility requirements, or introducing or rolling out UDL on their own. So if we think about institutional rollout, you can think about is there like aggregate benefits by rolling it out, but there’s also, seems like there might be some startup costs there too, in terms of time and effort. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Tom: Oh, Rebecca, that’s an astute question. Because right now, listeners, we’re recording this in late April of 2026 and in the United States, we just had a deadline to implement the Title II updates to the Americans with Disabilities Act. For those of you not familiar with that, by the end of April in 2026 we were all, colleges and universities, supposed to have all of the materials that we host in internet and in mobile formats comply with the Web Content Accessibility Group Standards. So there are 50 different standards for web hosted materials. And absolutely no one, and I mean no one, was going to be compliant as of the deadline. So the United States Department of Justice and Department of Education pushed that deadline back a year, and now it’s April of 2027. And it’s going to be April of 2027 and we’re going to be wringing our hands, going, “Oh my gosh, we’re not compliant still.” I guarantee that. So there’s a prediction for you, listeners. But Rebecca, your question has to do with that kind of situation. So when we, as colleges and universities, think about compliance with the law around accessibility, that means that that compliance usually falls on individuals’ shoulders. You, instructor of this biology course, you created all these materials, now it’s up to you to make them accessible. And when we think at that individual level, every individual has to be perfect in order for an institution to say that they are compliant. So if you’ve got one department that doesn’t get there, then the entire institution fails. So let’s turn that around, and when we think about Universal Design for Learning, when we’re applying it in an individual course, I actually want people to do a little bit less when we’re thinking about institution-level application. And one of the reasons why people are a little panicked now about those WCAG 50 standards is that we are asking communications professors and art historians and chemists to suddenly become experts in web design, and that’s not what the idea is about with that legal compliance issue. So when you think about people engaging in Universal Design for Learning at the individual level, the impact doesn’t have to be perfect. It doesn’t have to mean everyone does UDL to some perfect level where you get green check marks all throughout your learning management system with a particular tool. Imagine, and I’ve used this analogy before, it’s a good one for this conversation, too. Listeners, imagine that there are 20 steps to shining perfect, accessible content in your courses. There aren’t, but just for the sake of argument, let’s say there are 20 steps. Most places will spend some time, money, and effort to train a couple dozen people to get to step 18. And then we say, “You are our champions. Go train everyone else.” That’s where it breaks down, the “go train everyone else.” Other people are not being given extra time or time off, or they don’t get any support to actually focus their attention on these issues. What I wanted to do with Universal Design for Learning at Scale was to offer ways that we not get everyone to step 18, 19, 20, but to get absolutely everyone in the college or the university to step 2. What are some simple things that everyone does that become part of our everyday workflows? And so I’m indebted to our colleague Jordan Cameron at Kennesaw State University. Years ago, she came up with what she called “The Basic Four,” and that was if everybody did these four things, then some people on campus who were specialists could help with the really tough or knotty or detailed nuanced affordances, but everybody would do these four things. They would make alternative text for images that are displayed on websites in the learning management system and elsewhere. They would use semantic structure, so the heading level. putting things as titles in text-based documents. They would use captions or transcripts for video resources. And they would engage in inclusive procurement. They would engage in a process where, if the college or university is buying and supporting technology tools, they would only buy and support tools that were accessible and met those legal requirements. And if everybody did just those four things, it would, One, spread the workload around. Two, it would make sure that the expertise was available for the really challenging cases of accessible design. Three, it would allow everyone to adopt inclusive practices in a low-stakes way across their everyday workload. Meaning it’s not extra to do inclusive work, it’s actually part of our jobs, and it’s not a huge part of our jobs that we would need to fold in new things. So when we think about “the individual has to be perfect, but the collective only has to be good.” That’s what I’m aiming for. So when we think about individual courses with UDL, yes, institution-wide adoption is a little bit different than the sum of everyone just doing UDL in their own space. In fact, I don’t want to turn everyone into experts in the three principles and the nine guidelines and the 36 considerations of the Universal Design for Learning Framework. There should be people on campus who do that and know that. At the same time, everybody should have some real simple principles and practices that they can engage in that are consistent throughout all of our employees in a college or a university. So, excellent question. Thank you.

John: Have any institutions committed to a UDL-at-scale approach?

Tom: There have been, to my counting, 13 institutions who’ve actually gone from, “Hey, that’s a good idea” to “our institution is actually doing it.” I had the privilege and the pleasure of working with five of those. And I actually want to highlight one where I wasn’t the consultant, and they did it all on their own. This is Atlantic Technological University in Sligo, Ireland. And for listeners here in North America, they are a cross between what we would call a technical college, a community college, and a four-year undergraduate college. They do all of those things within their technological university mandate. What they discovered was that they were serving learners who lived all over the place in northwestern Ireland. So folks were living a 45-minute or an hour commute away by car, and a lot of their students were driving very long distances to be able to come to one of their many campuses. So what they did was they adopted an inclusive mindset, and of course, in Europe, they have the United Nations Strategic Development Goals, or SDGs. Inclusion is one of them, lowering access barriers is another one of those. So they used those as their guiding principles, and then they adopted Universal Design for Learning as a framework that allowed them to operationalize those aspirational principles. When we think about how that works, one of the first things that they did was convincing instructors and employees and staff members to adopt UDL. And of course, there were a lot of folks with their arms crossed saying, “I got along without this before. Why do I have to do this now? This seems like extra work.” The one change that they did, and I want to highlight this, their President and their board of directors said, “We want to be the most inclusive college or university in the country, and that’s a goal toward which we are all headed. We are going to put resources toward this in terms of time, people, and money,” but they didn’t do the next step that you might suggest. You might think that the next step was, “Here’s our plan, and now everybody follow it.” Their next step was to move away from “you must,” to move away from mandates and compliance and move into support. They said, “Here’s the goal. We want everybody to achieve these kinds of inclusive practices in your support area, in your department, in your study, and you tell us what it’s going to take to get to that goal, and we’ll support you.” So what happened from a top-down level was that the support that people were asking for was very different in different places. Some places wanted time, some places wanted funding, some places wanted a couple of experts to come in and help them think about things, and the senior leaders at that institution did those things. Did they do them perfectly, exactly as asked? No. At the same time, that listening attitude, that attitude of “this is a service that we’re providing to you,” it was great. When instructors would think about, “Oh, I want to make some of my content more universally designed,” and they would go talk with their teaching center folks or their learning designers, the learning designer would say, “Oh, yeah, we can teach you how to do this, or we can do this along with you.” And so that wasn’t perceived as, “Oh, here’s another law that applies to me, and now I have to do things differently.” It was perceived by instructors as, “Oh, the whole place is moving in this direction, and now this is a service on which I can rely.” Doing that actually spread the workload around and made it a slow and incremental change where people could ask questions and voice concerns and they got listened to. So that was a wonderful way that the folks at ATU actually implemented Universal Design for Learning. So now it’s part of their policy manual. It’s part of their mission and vision, and it’s also part of just the way they do things, because they actually shifted the culture.

Rebecca: What I’m hearing you say, Tom, is that the leadership at the institution modeled this practice by rolling out UDL in a UDL way, and gave folks some agency and some choice.

Tom: Yeah, students are not the only people who are five times more likely to stick with something when they feel they have a voice, choice, belonging, agency and safety, correct? So you’re making a connection, Rebecca, that I think listeners, you can also make. We as employees, whether we are part of the leadership team, whether we’re instructors and faculty members, whether we are service members and staff members. We are also learners, we are also human beings who want to have a clear reason why we’re doing the thing. We want to be able to get access to the information and the content that we’re going to use, and we want to be able to take action in a way that is meaningful for us. So we absolutely can UDL the process of adopting UDL. Yes.

John: Now, on your first book on UDL, you advocated a plus one approach to UDL adoption, and I think that’s something that many people have picked up on as making it a little bit more feasible or easier to manage. Do you make a similar suggestion at the institutional level?

Tom: It’s an unfair question, John, because I didn’t predict when I wrote, Reach Everyone, Teach Everyone with Kirsten Behling, that my idea of approaching Universal Design for Learning, not as here’s three principles that turn into nine guidelines that turn into 36 considerations that we should just approach that as plus one thinking, if there’s one way for an engagement to happen, now make one more way. That was always meant to be a starting point for UDL practice, not the entirety of everyone’s understanding of it. And I’ve been very honored and pleased to see that that plus one idea has really taken root. People know plus one as a way to start Universal Design for Learning, because it’s simple, it’s easy to understand and it’s easy to get your brain around it, and it also is small. Take one action, try one thing, do one experiment, and see what happens. Now you’re asking me to predict which of the ideas from my new book are going to take off because they are so simple or so resonant with people that they’re just going to latch on to it. I don’t know which one of those ideas is going to take off. If I had to put forward two candidates, though, one of them, we just talked about, shift from compliance to support. It seems like a very small and philosophical change. At the same time, changing the messaging around the activities that you’re doing as an institution, changes people’s perception of what those things are. It goes from “Oh, this is required of me,” to “Oh, this is a service on which I can rely.” And shifting from compliance to support narratives, those are the kinds of things that actually shift cultures and change people’s minds. So that’s one. And then a second one, I have a diagram in the book. Listeners, you can’t see it, but I’ll describe it very briefly. Think about a rectangle that is wider than it is tall. Over on the left-hand side, we’ll put “beginner” at the bottom of that. We’ll put “proficient” in the middle, and then we’ll put “approaching expert” on the other side. That’s a timeline of the learning process when people are beginners, when they’ve got a few ideas, when they’re getting it, and they’re almost experts with us. Now draw a line that starts at the very bottom, over by beginner, and goes to the very top, near proficient. We’ve just divided our rectangle into a growing and a diminishing triangle. The diminishing triangle is UDL, Universal Design for Learning, and it’s designed UDL. This is where we, as instructors, designers, developers, facilitators, when people are beginners, we want to design almost all of the boundaries and the possibilities for our learners. We tell them what to read, what to look at, what to do as exercises, so that they will get all of the foundational information. And then, as that triangle gets smaller and smaller over time, we start taking our safeguards and guardrails and left and right boundaries away. And then, by the time people are almost experts, we’re not giving them hardly any guidance or structure, we’re asking them to do. Now, the triangle that’s increasing over time, it starts out almost at nothing when people are beginners. That’s tool use. This is using AI tools, this is using calculators, this is any kinds of tools that people can use to support their learning. When they’re beginners, we don’t want them using any tools. We want them to learn things the hard way, the manual way, the long way, so that they actually struggle with and get the foundational concepts and the practice that we’re doing. Then by the time they’re proficient in the middle there, tool use grows and we start saying, “Okay, now here use tools to help you learn.” This is telling people not to use artificial intelligence to summarize their reading, but to use AI to make study questions about the reading and to use AI to help the learning process itself, but then by the time they get to be proficient, and, after that, when they get to be expert with us, then we say, “Okay, go ahead and use the tools to skip some steps,” because we’re going to use those AI tools, perhaps, to do easier or introductory level kinds of things, so that we can use our human brains to start working on more nuanced or more complex thinking processes. Now, readers, take one more line up at the top of this rectangle, start and draw a rising line from left to right, and we’re going to put one lopsided triangle on top. That is agentic UDL. And it has to go in lock step as our designed UDL diminishes over the learning process, we have to start replacing it with learner agency. We tell our learners not go read this thing and do this activity, but we say, “What kinds of resources do you need or want now? What kinds of activities would help you to learn better on this?” And we become more guides rather than dictators of the things. So when we think about that lopsided house, my hope is that that diagram will take off, because it’s a simple way to think about the entire learning process and what goes into it. And spoiler alert, listeners, it’s fractal. That learning process can happen over the course of an individual lesson, over the course of a unit, over the course of an entire class offering, over the course of an entire credential. So we can go through that process at lots of different scales. So awesome question, and even though it was unfair, I do have two candidates for the things that I hope will take off.

Rebecca: But I think you also reiterated the idea that the plus one can help an institution get started, because it’s iterative, it changes over time, it’s scaffolded, it’s all the things that you’ve been describing.

Tom: And that’s 100% on purpose. I try to offer ideas that are easy to put your brain around, and then get really nuanced and complex when you start implementing them, because you have the agency and the choice to be able to do that design in a way that works well for you and for your learners.

Rebecca: In addition to the support model that you’ve been talking about, as institutions begin to commit to UDL, can you talk a little bit about what kinds of incentive structures they may want to consider to help faculty employees stay aligned with this framework?

Tom: Ooh, can I turn your question inside out a bit, Rebecca? You talked about incentive structures. And incentives are things that we give people when they’re doing things that they don’t normally do. What I want to do is I want to make Universal Design for Learning just part of our everyday workflows. So an incentive would mean “I’m going to pay you extra to do some extra thing” or “I’m going to give you release time, because this is hard and you need some time to do it.” Initially, yes, those things need to be in place because it’s different from the way that we do things now. The goal for me, though, is that we’re not creating incentives that mentally label UDL as extra or on top of the work that we should be doing. So I want to turn the question a little inside out and say that my advice to everyone who’s a campus leader is the very first thing you can do is to put Universal Design for Learning into job descriptions for new hires and into the performance evaluation process. Make Universal Design for Learning expected of people who come into the institution as new employees, and make UDL practices part of the measurable criteria by which people’s jobs are assessed. That’s not exactly an incentive program. And if you just put them into the job descriptions and new hire offerings without actually training people on what that looks like, then you’re setting them up for failure. So having the training available before those changes happen, having an opportunity for people to be assessed on Universal Design for Learning once or twice through the cycle without it counting, so that they get the feedback, but if they haven’t been doing well with it, that they get an opportunity to say, “Oh, wait, I probably need to go attend the workshops or get some coaching or work with a mentor on this.” But I’m a big fan of letting people fail without consequences.

Rebecca: Jeez, that sounds like another UDL principle being highlighted right here.

Tom: It’s not technically in the UDL guidelines, but it does absolutely show up in guideline eight, and we can nerd out about that later. [LAUGHTER] But listeners, what we’re thinking about here is when we think about giving people the opportunity to try things out, work with them in their own fashion, but also holding them accountable, like accountability is a key driver to scaling up any change at any institution, and with Universal Design for Learning, it’s no different. The difference here is that I want to suggest give people an opportunity to have a minute to get in touch with and apply these ideas and then assess them, but don’t ding them if their assessment is poor. Say, “Okay, this didn’t work,” or “You need more time on this,” or “You need this a different way.” Let’s work with what actually is going to help move the needle here. I also want to share, the bar should be incredibly low. We’re not looking for a 100% or a green score in the learning management system on Blackboard Ally, where it’s checking all the accessibility. Universal Design for Learning and accessibility are actually different. Accessibility just means that that’s sort of the floor that’s where everybody should be doing this as a matter of course, and Universal Design for Learning is a framework that allows us to move beyond just what’s compliant. So excellent question, and thank you for letting me play with it.

John: And by making it part of the culture of the institution and part of the regular expectations, then it does build in a little bit of loss aversion, which is a behavioral economics principle, which suggests that the threat of losing a job [LAUGHTER] by not doing it might have much more of an impact than the possibility of getting incentives for doing something. That’s perhaps an overly harsh way of suggesting that.

Tom: Listeners you heard John say that, and not me, right? [LAUGHTER] But I’m also not a behavioral economist, fairly, though.

John: But one, point though, that I think is worth at least discussing is that many faculty become concerned about new initiatives that are initiated by their current administration in the institution, when institutions have a fair amount of turnover at the top. How can institutions build this into the culture of the institution in a way that is going to persist after the administration turns over?

Tom: Ooh, excellent question. There’s a very short phrase in higher education that is meant to be ironic or satiric. It’s called “new provost, new priorities.” So every few years, a new senior leader comes in and they say, “We were doing this, and now we’re going to do that.” And in some institutions, it changes every year or so, right? The campus leaders go to a leadership conference, they hear about the next big new thing, and suddenly the funding and the winds change. It’s a reasonable response if you’ve been there long enough to kind of fold your arms across your chest and say, “I’m just going to wait until the winds change again and change again, and maybe I won’t have to actually do an awful lot with all of these big new priorities.” So there’s an individual and a collective way to respond. Individual way is to play to people’s own interests. And we’ve talked about this in other conversations and books. It’s still true. Ask people where they’re already finding challenges or gaps. Where is it that you give the directions for an activity and you get an email 400 times from your students, all asking the same clarifying question about the direction? Where is it that you give a splendid lecture, and then everybody gets that concept wrong on the exam, you’ve got to reteach. Where are those places where people are already going to do a little work to redesign or think again about how they’re approaching a particular idea, concept or process? Those are always good places to start thinking in a more inclusive way, because you can lower some barriers, not only for the learners, but also for yourself. So when we think about UDL, the selling point of UDL for individuals is that a little bit of effort now actually saves you a lot of effort later. And you know where you’re putting in all of that repeated effort that just seems to be a time sink. So in your own career, think about that. And then when we think about, at an institutional level, if we’re going to have leadership change over, there are three things we can do right away, and this is all chapter five, people. One, make sure that you are enshrining Universal Design for Learning in your policy manual, this takes the longest amount of time. When you’re involved in shared governance, things do not move fast. But if inclusive design is actually part of the identity of the institution and it’s part of the mission that we’re on. Folks at Greensboro College in North Carolina actually did adopt this first into their mission, and worked back from that into practice and into making it part of their everyday work. Two, when we think institutionally, we actually talked about this as well. Putting Universal Design for Learning into those job descriptions and performance evaluations means that you’re changing culture by fiat. And John, you said it in a different way than I would have [LAUGHTER] in terms of risk or loss aversion. But when we think about risk, we can think about risk in negative ways and positive ways. So the negative risk is, “Oh, if I don’t do this, I might lose my job, or I won’t get my promotion.” But the positive risk aspect of it is, if we do this, then we are likely to have more students stick with us. If we do this, we are more likely to have fewer students asking the same question over and over and over again or tripping over the same stumbling blocks intellectually or practically. And then the third thing that we can think about when we’re working at scale is that institutional culture, the people who are there the longest typically aren’t the senior leaders, it’s typically the folks in operations. So the folks who are running the departments and the support units, we’ve got the institutional memory. So in trying Universal Design for Learning in your practices at your unit level, put it in the handbook, put it in the manual, put it in the new employee onboarding that you do. That’s where it’s going to stick, because provosts and presidents come and go, it’s a truism in higher education. And the folks who are here for the long haul, Universal Design for Learning helps us do our jobs more efficiently, with less stress, less anxiety, and it helps our students to be more successful. It does require effort and work, and to the extent that we can make time, put money, assign people to those tasks, the better. But even if we don’t have a lot of any of those three things, we can still shift how people act.

John: And if students are learning more, it tends to be much more enjoyable for faculty.

Tom: Wow, I didn’t put that in the book. Seriously, I didn’t put that in the book because one of the biggest arguments that we have for Universal Design for Learning is that it helps students to learn more effectively, and I guarantee you that that is not an argument that moves anyone to open their budget. So this book, like I was saying at the very beginning, is a very different kind of argument to the one that I have produced in other books. In other books, we’re talking about social justice, we’re talking about efficiency, we’re talking about efficacy for the students. In this book, we’re talking about, “Yeah, this actually makes sense, because it means that we’re spending our money more effectively and wisely, and helps us with reducing rework and making processes more efficient.” This is language that I’m not used to using all the time, and it’s language that most campus leaders are very used to hearing.

Rebecca: It’s important to have campus leadership on board to make this a cultural shift, but it doesn’t have to start there. It can start from anyone at a university who’s committed to this work. Do you have some strategies that individuals might use, collectively or individually, to start to nudge an administration to consider adopting the UDL framework for the entire institution?

Tom: We’re actually heading in that direction in our conversation already, aren’t we?

Rebecca: We are.

Tom: So if you’ve got a grassroots effort where you can show that Universal Design for Learning actually does have an effect on student retention, or more tuition coming in, or fewer people dropping out. Collect those data and share that information with your senior leaders and share it with language that they understand. That is task number one. Talk about its impact on the budget for your unit. Or if it’s not a budget impact, talk about how, instead of putting out little tiny fires over and over and over again, that adopting UDL has meant that you’ve addressed some regular concerns and gaps that happen every day, and that’s actually freed up your staff to go after bigger or more complex challenges and goals. So it actually does help us to shift how we spend our time. Listeners, I don’t know what area you work in, in a college or a university, I guarantee that you have the story of the thing that you spend all your time doing once a year. So for example, I worked with some colleagues at D’Youville University in Buffalo, New York, and the head of their Disability Services Office. She was one of the champions who went through a process of learning more about Universal Design for Learning. She shared that on average, she was chasing 70 plus students every semester because they had to actually actively request their accommodations every semester, it’s not just like you get your accommodations and then you’re good for four more years or six more years. So every semester, she would be sending out email messages to people’s .edu address saying, “Hey, quick reminder, you have to request this every semester.” And she spent literally 80 to 120 hours of her own time, and then 80 to 120 hours of the four people in her office chasing down these requests. And then they made one UDL change. When people initially sought a disability accommodation, they asked the students, “We’re going to send stuff to your campus address. Would you be willing to share your cell phone number with us so we could text you? We promise we won’t spam you.” 90 plus percent of the students on intake shared their cell numbers, and when she sent out the reminder, “Hey, you got to do this every semester,” it went to their email address and it went to their cell phone number, if they had shared it. They literally went from chasing 70 or more students over the course of weeks every semester to two. Two people needed reminders more than once. So making that UDL choice about giving people more than one way that they can get the information helped them to actually reduce a huge time barrier for their staff, and that meant that their disability service staff weren’t playing phone tag and email tag with people, but they were able to actually do the work that they were hired to do, which is helping students to overcome barriers in the classroom environment. So when we think about convincing the administration, show them examples like that. “Hey, we saved you a whole bunch of money, and now we can work on more complex challenges with the same number of staff members.” That’s an argument that a provost is going to listen to. So show that it works and use language that they understand: budget, retention, persistence.

John: We always end by asking, what’s next? So what’s next for you, Tom?

Tom: My focus is always on quality in higher education. So I’ve got two new books coming out after UDL at Scale, which is coming out in August of 2026. Sometime in 2027 I have Evaluating Teaching in the Digital Era with Annie Taylor and Jean Mandernach. Then in 2028, it’ll be Peer Observation Made Practical with Lauren Barbeau and Claudia Cornejo Happel. And sometime in 2026 or ‘27, I worked with Chris Hromalik at the SUNY System, and we have an article coming out on Universal Design for Learning in Project Management. Plus, I am now a full time professional advisor, so I’m enjoying working with colleges and universities on really complex problems. Listeners, if you go to my website, it’s just ThomasJTobin.com, there’s a free UDL book there on further education and training, John mentioned it in our opener, and you can download that. And if you’ve got a wicked problem that you’re trying to figure out that has to do with the quality of our teaching or access to education, I’d love to hear from you. So thank you again for having me on the program. I love Tea for Teaching. I’m a regular listener. I’ve got my Tea for Teaching mug, and I’ll look forward to where this all goes down the line.

Rebecca: Well, thanks so much, Tom, we always enjoy talking to you and brainstorming how to make some good institutional change.

John: Yes, It’s great talking to you again, and I’m looking forward to seeing you at one of the next conferences coming up.

Tom: Yep, and listeners, if we cross paths in three dimensions, just look for the tall man with white hair, glasses and a giant black mustache and say hello, I’ll be glad to talk with you. Thanks everybody.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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446. Teaching Neurodivergent College Students

Neurodivergent students experience challenges in traditional lecture settings. In this episode, Jennifer Pusateri joins us to discuss strategies to reduce these challenges while supporting and leveraging the strengths that neurodivergent students bring to our classrooms.

Jennifer is the Senior Universal Design Consultant at The University of Kentucky and has served as the co-chair of the international UDL in Higher Education Network. She is a member of the CAST National Faculty and is the author of Transform Your Teaching with Universal Design for Learning: Six Steps to Jumpstart Your Practice. Her newest book, A Practical Guide to Teaching Neurodivergent College Students has recently been released by Harvard Education Press.

Show Notes

  • Pusateri, Jennifer L. (2026). A Practical Guide to Teaching Neurodivergent College Students. Harvard Education Press.
  • Brown, T. E. (2013). A new understanding of ADHD in children and adults: Executive function impairments. Routledge.
  • CAST UDL Guidelines
  • Mary-Ann Winklemes – TILT Higher Ed
  • Tom Tobin, Lillian Nave, and Jennifer Pusateri (2025). UDL 3.0. Tea for Teaching podcast. Episode 395. May 28.
  • Mary-Ann Winklemes (2023). Transparency in Learning and Teaching. Tea for Teaching podcast. Episode 290. May 24.
  • Viji Sathy and Kelly Hogan (2020). Structured for Inclusion. Tea for Teaching podcast. Episode 153. September 16.

Transcript

John: Neurodivergent students experience challenges in traditional lecture settings. In this episode, we discuss strategies to reduce these challenges while supporting and leveraging the strengths that neurodivergent students bring to our classrooms.
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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guest today is Jennifer Pusateri. Jennifer is Jennifer is the Senior Universal Design Consultant at The University of Kentucky and has served as the co-chair of the international UDL in Higher Education Network. She is a member of the CAST National Faculty and is the author of Transform Your Teaching with Universal Design for Learning: Six Steps to Jumpstart Your Practice. Her newest book, A Practical Guide to Teaching Neurodivergent College Students has recently been released by Harvard Education Press. Welcome back, Jennifer.

Jennifer: Delighted to be here with you all.

John: Thanks for joining us again, and today’s teas are:… Jennifer, are you drinking tea?

Jennifer: I am and I don’t normally drink tea. So, I’m in central Kentucky, and I will tell you, this is the most beautiful time of year in central Kentucky. It is so green and lush with the blue grass and the horse farms and all of these rolling hills. However, [LAUGHTER] that means it’s also very allergy-ish at the moment, and so I woke up a little froggy today, so I’m drinking Throat Coat tea.

Rebecca: Hopefully that’ll get the job done.

Jennifer: We’ll see.

John: And Rebecca?

Rebecca: I have an English breakfast tea today.

John: And I have a ginger peach green tea today.

Rebecca: Nice. So we invited you here today to discuss A Practical Guide to Teaching Neurodivergent College Students. Can you tell us about the origin of this book?

Jennifer: Yeah. So I’ve been telling folks that I wrote the book I wish my professors had read, [LAUGHTER] because I was not what you would call a great student when it comes to my undergrad. In fact, I opened the book with a screenshot of my actual transcript from my sophomore year of college, and it’s not great… 1.761 GPA I got that semester, which is fantastic. I just didn’t know what I didn’t know. I didn’t know how to learn. I didn’t know what worked best for me, and I did not know at that time that I was ADHD. I was actually diagnosed a little bit later in that year, after being like, “this is not working, like something’s not right here.” My younger daughter is graduating high school and ideally entering college this fall. And I was kind of thinking about, “man, what would I like for her professors to know about teaching neurodivergent students.” She, like Mom, is also ADHD. And I was just kind of hoping that eventually instructors will kind of have a better understanding of what neurodivergence looks like in our students, and that it’s not entirely a deficit.

John: I suppose, before we get too far into the discussion, we should talk a little bit about how you define neurodivergence, just to make sure everyone is on the same starting point.

Jennifer: Yeah, for sure, that’s actually a really good place, I think, to start. Sometimes people balk a little bit about this being a little boring, but I think it’s super interesting. So a neurodivergent brain is a brain that functions differently or outside of what the dominant society says is normal. There is, of course, no such thing as a normal brain. That’s not really how it works. But depending on the society that you’re a part of, there are some expectations for what people assume to be a normal brain. So neurodivergence would be whatever falls outside of that. So if you want to make it a little more clear, from its beginnings, honestly, the word itself was used to describe autistic folks, but also now there’s kind of a larger umbrella, recognizing that there are so many different ways to learn, and that there are so many things that affect the way our brain works when learning. Now we’re including things like ADHD, dyslexia. Some people are including things like depression, anxiety, OCD, and trauma, because we absolutely know that those have an impact on the way our brain works. So, that’s kind of the broad understanding of neurodivergence.

Rebecca: What proportion of college students might fit under this umbrella of neurodivergent.

Jennifer: This depends, I guess, on what you recognize as counting as neurodivergent. What I mean to say is that there’s no one definition of neurodivergence. It’s not a medical term. Some people include certain groups, and some don’t. I tend to use a broader umbrella when describing neurodivergent folks, and the reason that is important when thinking about kind of what percentage are we looking at? So I’ll start with ADHD being one of the most prevalent, about 14% of undergrads, and this is using data from spring of 2025, have ADHD. About 6% of them are dyslexic. Autism is around 3%. Those numbers all seem a little low to me, but that’s what we have from the data. I personally include, as we just talked about, things like depression, anxiety, OCD, and trauma, and so this is where our numbers start to get a little bit bigger. So when we’re looking at our undergrads in the US, 27% identify as being treated for depression, 36% of students report anxiety, and OCD is about 6%, trauma is about 8%. Of course, we don’t just add all of those numbers up. That’s not really how that works. We do know that many, many students who are neurodivergent also have depression and anxiety as well. So like if we just counted, let’s just assume that if we included everything else, everyone else is represented already, we’re going to pretend, underneath depression and anxiety, then that highest number is 36%. So we’re looking at roughly a third of our students have brains that are working in a way that’s outside of what the dominant society considers to be normal, and that’s a lot, a third of our students. That’s a huge amount of students., when we really sit down and think about it.

Rebecca: So one of the things that you indicated in your own story is that you didn’t know that you were ADHD when you were a student. So, we know that there’s wildly under-reported cases because students don’t want to disclose for a wide range of reasons, or they simply don’t know, even though you’re kind of identifying one-third, it could be much bigger. [LAUGHTER]

Jennifer: It really could. And something else that we know for sure is that everyone that needs a diagnosis does not have a diagnosis. There’s a lot of reasons that someone couldn’t get a diagnosis. It costs a lot of money, it requires people to take time off work to take their kids to appointments and do things like that. So there are some pretty significant barriers already just in receiving a diagnosis. So we know that that absolutely exists. And then we also know students are arriving at college, and many are choosing not to disclose that they have a disability of any kind. And so we know for sure there are a lot who are falling through the cracks because they’re either not requesting or not receiving the accommodations that they probably need.

John: And along those lines, I would expect the under-reporting would be more common among low-income students and students for whom getting that documentation would be a bit more challenging.

Jennifer: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and I don’t have that research or data on hand, but I know that it exists, and that’s pretty much what it says. And then we also think about things like cultural norms. There are some cultures that are not going to see and understand things like ADHD or autism in the same way that others would. They may not even understand that this is something they need to be thinking about with their children, and then therefore they arrive at college and they don’t have the diagnosis that they need.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about the strengths that neurodivergent students bring into our classes.

Jennifer: Yeah, man, there are so many strengths, and this is one of my favorite things to talk about. In the book, I have a diagram where I’ve kind of made a three-way Venn diagram overlapping the strengths of our ADHD students, our autistic students, and our dyslexic students, because the strengths overlaps so much, which I think is really interesting. But some of the things you would typically think about… students who are ADHD are going to be maybe a little more spontaneous, perhaps more energetic. They often are very self aware. And then they’re also going to overlap with autism, especially when it comes to hyper focus. Hyper focus just being that you can focus your attention in on something that you are interested in or care about in a very significant way, to the detriment of other things, like having to use the restroom, or drink water [LAUGHTER] or whatever. That hyper focus really is a big piece of ADHD and autism. We also see ADHDers and autistic folks being very justice and fairness oriented, which I think is super interesting as well. And then when we think about dyslexia, individuals with dyslexia often have more of a visual thinking pattern, like they’re thinking in pictures. Often that can mean that they have a completely different way of understanding and sharing the information that they’re learning about. So they may be able to put together a really good or really helpful diagram that someone else wouldn’t think of, someone else without dyslexia may not even consider or not even be able to place together, but they just seem to have this very big strength when it comes to dyslexia and having things like visuals. So that also overlaps a little bit. We have a lot of out of box thinking when it comes to folks with dyslexia, also ADHD, and then that visual-spatial awareness or reasoning we also see in folks who have autism. In this diagram I have in the book, I have the center in the middle, which is all three of these bigger categories of neurotypes, ADHD, autism, and dyslexia. And I’m listing in there five different overlapping strengths, and I think these are super interesting when it comes to higher ed because if you think about these, and I’m going to share them here in just a second, think about them in terms of hiring a grad student to help with something like qualitative research. So here are the strengths: they’re very interest driven, they’re good at problem solving, they’re excellent at pattern seeking and pattern recognition, creativity, and curiosity. So when I think about someone who could be a qualitative researcher, a graduate student, perhaps, those are the qualities I want. I want someone who’s picking up on patterns that I maybe don’t see, someone who’s very strongly driven by their interest in the things that they care about, and who’s also really good at curiosity, that’s kind of driving them along to understand better the things that they’re researching. I really do see a lot of these strengths as being very helpful in higher education, especially when we think about things like research.

John: And one of the areas you discuss in the book is executive functioning, and I think most people have at least a general sense of that term, but could you define it a little bit more precisely, and also maybe talk a little bit about what can interfere with students’ executive functioning in our classrooms.

Jennifer: So executive function, it’s basically just this grouping of skills and processes that monitor and regulate all kinds of important things, so things like focus and attention, things like our emotions, regulating emotion, organization, time management, prioritization, those kinds of things, goal setting. And there’s a lot more. There are a lot more pieces. And the problem with executive functioning and defining it is, just like neurodivergence, there’s no one definition. There are lots of definitions. And so I choose to use a specific one in this book, because the model I use, which is Thomas Brown’s model, really focuses in on the emotions piece and also the processing piece. And those are things that I don’t always see in executive functioning models, and I think those are some pieces that maybe have been missed a little bit in higher ed, so I really like that model for that reason.

Rebecca: What can we do in the classroom to help support executive function. 10:53

Jennifer: I think a big one that a lot of people think of up front is focused attention and motivation. In my book, I have broken down these sort of challenges into six categories to make it a little bit easier. It can be overwhelming. There’s so many pieces, so many things that executive functioning touches that I wanted to group it a little bit. So the first group is focus, attention, and motivation. That might mean that students who are neurodivergent are going to have a difficult time sitting and passively listening for long periods of time… more than 10 minutes, maybe. So that may be an issue. It also might be things like motivation. I’ll speak for myself. I am not motivated by things I don’t care about. If I have to do things I don’t care about, perhaps I have to take a class that’s outside of my major, or is a general ed class, or whatever, it’s going to be like pulling teeth to get me to do the things in that class, because it’s something I don’t care about. So those are the kinds of things we might see when it comes to focus, attention, and motivation of students having difficulties. Another big piece is organization and structure. A lot of times, neurodivergent folks have difficulty seeing these structures that kind of underlie everything. One of the things I think about is reading a journal article. Someone who’s neurodivergent may read several journal articles but still not see that there’s sort of an underlying structure or order or grouping or whatever of this is how research reads. So in my field, education, research tends to be laid out the same, like it’s always going to start with an introduction, and you’re going to move to this next piece, and then you’re going to move to this next piece. And if that’s not clearly stated or laid out, sometimes it’s difficult for neurodivergent folks to guess that or to see that. And then other things like time management, prioritization. These are things we see all the time with all of our students, but even more so with our neurodivergent students, struggling with things like turning in assignments on time or planning enough time ahead so that they can study or write or whatever to turn something in by a certain deadline. So, those are things we see in a lot of our students, which also brings me to another thought, that we know for sure that undergraduates are of an age where their prefrontal cortex, part of their brain, is not fully developed yet. That doesn’t happen until about age 25 or even 30 for some folks. We can pretty much guess that all of our undergrads are going to struggle at some point with executive functioning. That’s one of the things I really am trying to kind of get across in this book too, is that when you’re setting up your course and your instruction to support neurodivergent students, you’re actually doing that to support all of your students. And those things end up being really useful for many students, in addition to those who are neurodivergent. And then we can also think about other pieces, like sensory and emotional regulation. Those are kind of overlooked often in a higher ed academic setting, but are really important to students being able to work effectively and efficiently without getting overwhelmed or overstimulated.

Rebecca: So you’ve outlined some of the struggles that students might have related to executive function. What can instructors do to help support these students to overcome these struggles?

Jennifer: Well, one of the things we can think about is if we know that we’re going to have many students who are going to struggle with, let’s say, focused attention and motivation, that they’re going to have a difficult time paying attention for more than, I don’t know, 10 minutes or so, then knowing that up front, we can really think about the way that we’re structuring our lectures, or our in-class meeting time, so that we’re breaking that up a little bit with smaller periods, or little bursts of activity, whatever that might be. There are lots of things that you can build in. So you might lecture for 10 minutes or so and then pause, and you can have everyone do a quick one minute reflection writing, or they could even just do a simple turn and talk with their neighbor, because when they pause from the passive listening, and you do something active, it almost is like it resets the timer. As an ADHDer, I have this like internal timer of about how long I can sit and listen and not do something. [LAUGHTER] Stopping after about 10 minutes, doing a quick reflection, or turn and talk with someone next to me, resets that timer. Personally, as an ADHDer, I have this, like, internal timer of about how long I can sit and listen and not do something. [LAUGHTER] And so, like, stopping after about 10 minutes, doing a quick reflection or turn and talk with someone next to me resets that timer now. And now you got another 10 minutes or so where I’m able to really stay focused and listen and engage with what you’re talking about, and then that timer runs out again. As an instructor, if we kind of know that, we can build in these pieces throughout our lectures or even just our course meeting times. And that’s going to be useful, obviously, for our neurodivergent students, but if we’re building in things like reflections or turn and talk or whatever, there’s a lot of research that doing those things in the midst of a lecture is going to help with student memory retention and understanding of the things that they’re talking about. So again, we see this theme come back, that when we build in things that are going to support our neurodivergent students, we are actually supporting all of our students.

John: I was thinking that as you were talking about some of the issues with executive functioning, because issues of student engagement are pretty common and go far beyond just a third of our students. It’s really nice that these approaches can be useful for everyone. So in addition to providing structure and taking breaks and engaging in active learning activities, you also recommend throughout the book using a UDL approach to reduce some of the challenges that neurodivergent students face in our classrooms. Can you provide some examples of the benefits of providing multiple means of engagement, representation, and action and expression?

Jennifer: Definitely. This is, I think, one of the biggest ones. Of course, the UDL guidelines were updated in 2024 and we used to call the bullet points, checkpoints, but now we call them considerations in UDL. Consideration 7.1 which is in the welcoming interests and identities category or guideline says, “optimize choice and autonomy,” and this one for neurodivergent people, is key. An ADHDers brain, an autistic student’s brain, is an interest-driven brain, and so, when we can provide students with the opportunity to choose something within their learning path, maybe that’s the topic for a paper or a project or something, that gives them the opportunity to choose something that kind of aligns with some of their special interests, or things they are interested in otherwise, and by doing that, that’s going to increase their motivation, that’s going to increase their engagement, and they’re actually going to probably produce better work for you than if they did not have that choice. So, building in that choice and autonomy is a game changer for a lot of neurodivergent folks. When we’re thinking about representation, there are several in there, but the one I was thinking about earlier is Consideration 2.5 and so this one is in the language and symbols guideline, and it’s “illustrate through multiple media.” We know that a lot of neurodivergent folks really respond well and tend to learn well and understand better from visuals. So anytime we can include a graphic organizer, or we can include a clear diagram or a visual or a video, something visual that goes along with more of the text-based things that we’re learning, is going to be super useful for neurodivergent students. So that’s my suggestion for representation. And then when it comes to that action and expression chunk, we’re going to think about the bottom right guideline in blue, and that one is now called “strategy development” (it used to be called “executive function”). Consideration 6.3 asks us to think about organizing our information and resources. To me, as an instructor, this reminds me, if I just give them the things, but I don’t have any good organizational structure around it, it can still be really tricky. Occasionally I see some faculty that will put everything in Canvas… we use Canvas at our university… will put all of the documents that a student needs for a course in the files part of their Canvas course with no organizational structure whatsoever, no modules, no grouping, and that could be really tricky. So it’s going to trip students up when they’re trying to find the things that they’re looking for. It’s also going to be wasting a little bit of their cognitive load or cognitive energy in trying to find those things. So we can organize things like our Canvas courses, our syllabi, etc, thinking about really good structure. When we’re teaching, we can clarify the information hierarchy. And what I mean is, when people learn new information, that information is all at the same importance level, until someone tells you otherwise. And so we can try to be more clear and explicit about that structure. So I might use something like a guided notes document where I have clear headings for kind of the big topics that we’ll be talking about in that day’s lecture, and then that would visually cue students to understand, “Oh, these are the big pieces. These are the most important topics.” And I’ve done that. I’ve kind of elevated that informational hierarchy and made that clear and explicit to the students in the use of that guided notes document.

Rebecca: In addition to using a UDL methodology, what are some other ways to support neurodivergent students in the classroom?

Jennifer: One thing that I think is super important is transparent design. So if you are familiar with the TILT method by Mary-Ann Winklemes and others, that’s a really good way to approach assignments for neurodivergent students, because one of the things that’s really difficult is unclear expectations. So when perhaps an instructor thought they were being clear in their directions, but perhaps could have clarified a little more or maybe made some things kind of broken down a little bit into steps, or checklists, or whatever. When we can do that, that’s going to be really helpful for neurodivergent students. But also, one of the things I really like about that TILT approach to teaching and to instructional design in higher ed is the fact that it elevates the purpose of the assignment. Neurodivergent folks really like to know the why behind things, myself included. I want to understand why we’re doing this. Why are we doing this assignment? Because when I know the why behind the thing, that really helps with my motivation and my engagement. And although I don’t necessarily have to like it or agree with you, I can understand why. That makes a big difference. So, using things like transparent assignment design and transparency in learning and teaching is another great way to do that. It aligns so nicely with universal design for learning, because it’s just asking you to take out all of your assumptions and start thinking proactively about the barriers that your students are going to encounter. UDL is doing that, and transparent assignment design is doing that as well.

John: And we’ll include links to earlier discussions related to this, including the earlier podcast you were on discussing the new UDL guidelines, a podcast with Mary-Ann Winklemes, where she discusses the TILT approach, and a podcast with Viji Sathy and Kelly Hogan, where they talk about the evidence on structure and the importance of structure, because these things are coming from a lot of different areas, and they benefit a lot of students, and specifically, I think Mary-Ann Winklemes and Viji Sathy and Kelly Hogan have emphasized research showing the importance that these things have in reducing many of the equity gaps that we observe in our classes. So these approaches are really useful, and it’s really nice to see the UDL approach combined with the other materials in your book, as well as TILT and the importance of structure. So it’s really a nice guide to effective teaching for everybody, as well as a guide to help reduce some of the challenges faced by neurodivergent students in our classes.

Jennifer: And our neurodivergent students are some of the most brilliant students out of the box, creative thinkers that we have, and so if we can support them on some of these other pieces related to executive functioning, I mean, wow, we’re going to be astounded by what we see in our students. So, I encourage folks to really think about that by supporting neurodivergent students with things like executive functioning and such that you are unleashing that student’s potential in a way that perhaps they had not been able to do before.

John: One of the other things you talk about earlier in your book was that challenges with executive function are often misperceived as indicating a lack of intelligence. Could you talk a little bit about why this misperception occurs, and perhaps how we can break people away from that misperception.

Jennifer: One of the things I actually included in the book, sort of for that reason, I included some quotes from interviews I did with neurodivergent higher ed faculty and staff. I wanted to include their voices, because sometimes I think it can be tricky for instructors. Sometimes they can think that students who maybe have these, what some call invisible disabilities, might be trying to just get something over on them or cheat or make it easier. And so I guess I wanted faculty and instructors to hear from their colleagues, “No, actually, these are things that I did and still struggle with my entire life, and here’s how I have looked at that, or here’s how I help my students now, because of the way that I approach these things well.”

Rebecca: So we always wrap up by asking: “What’s next?”

Jennifer: There are a lot of things I’ve been thinking about recently. One of the things I’m kind of kicking around is we’ve had some really good books that have come out recently that have elevated the stories of neurodivergent faculty and instructors and kind of their experience and what that’s been like for them. I would love to see… and perhaps this will be next on my list of things to do… more support for neurodivergent faculty, because there’s so much executive functioning that goes along with being an instructor in a higher ed situation. I mean, it’s constant. And then thinking about how we’re balancing our teaching with our research and with our service work and all of those things, we could use a little bit of practical support with that, those of us who are neurodivergent instructors in a higher ed setting. So that’s something I’ve been thinking about a little bit lately. I don’t know if that’s a next project or a next book, but I know it’s a thing that we need some support and help with out there in the field.

Rebecca: Definitely, I think that’s something that I hear a lot as we’re talking about digital accessibility efforts and other things in this space, is we spent a lot of time thinking about how to help students, but not always a lot of time thinking about how to help and support colleagues.

Rebecca: Well, thank you so much for joining us. We look forward to sharing your book and getting this episode out into the world.

Jennifer: I appreciate that.

John: And in fact, we liked your book so much that it’s been chosen as one of our fall reading groups here.

Jennifer: Yay!

John: So we’ll have a number of faculty who will be discussing this through the fall semester. So, thank you.

Jennifer: That’s great. Awesome.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing assistance provided by Fred Llerena.

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442. Not Token Gestures

While colleges and universities have made substantial progress in attracting a diverse mix of students, there are still substantial equity gaps in student outcomes. In this episode, Roberta Hurtado joins us to discuss approaches that can be used to reduce these gaps. Roberta is an associate professor in the English and Creative Writing Department here at SUNY Oswego, where she also serves as Director of Latino and Latin American Studies, and has been a fellow in the Triandiflou Institute for Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Transformative Practice. She also has served as a 2023 Fellow in the SUNY Hispanic Leadership Institute.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: While colleges and universities have made substantial progress in attracting a diverse mix of students, there are still substantial equity gaps in student outcomes. In this episode, we explore approaches that can be used to reduce these gaps.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Roberta Hurtado. Roberta is an associate professor in the English and Creative Writing Department here at SUNY Oswego, where she also serves as Director of Latino and Latin American Studies, and has been a fellow in the Triandiflou Institute for Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Transformative Practice. She also has served as a 2023 Fellow in the SUNY Hispanic Leadership Institute. Welcome Roberta.

Roberta: Hi, thank you for having me.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are… Roberta, are you having tea with us today?

Roberta: I am. It is Bigelow Cozy Chamomile,.

Rebecca: Nice. Sounds nice and relaxing, something that maybe a continuation of spring break?

Roberta: A little bit. Yeah. [LAUGHTER]

John: We’re just coming off of spring break here, and it is still below freezing here today in Oswego.

Rebecca: How about you, John?

John: I am having a nice, warm Lapsang Souchong today.

Rebecca: Nice. I have a Scottish Breakfast tea today.

John: We’ve invited you here today to discuss your new book, Not Token Gestures: Practical DEI strategies in 21st Century Higher Education. Can you tell us the origin story of this book project?

Roberta: Absolutely. So I was a SUNY HLI fellow in spring of 2023 and part of that institute is a requirement for you to do a capstone project, something that’s going to serve your university, something that’s going to help if there’s a gap or there’s an area where you can lend your expertise to. And at the time, I was working on the Triandiflou Institute fellowship as well. So I was doing them simultaneously, and we were looking at the importance of representation among faculty, and so one of the ways that you can intervene is to directly attend to the hiring practice. Where do you send job ads? What kind of language do you have in job ads? One of the things about the hiring process for faculty is that you might do really great workshops at the very beginning, everybody’s enthusiastic, you’ve got energy, it’s the summer. And then three months later, you’re still [LAUGHTER] in those very first preliminary steps, because the process itself goes over about a year from start to finish, from drafting the job ad, to sending it out, to getting people to come through, to getting them into the first- round interviews, first-round interviews, to second-round interviews. It’s just a lot that goes into it. And so what were really great workshops at the beginning are distant memories where you remember sitting and looking at a screen or being in a room, and sometimes these workshops also have aspects to them that need a lot of clarification. So, b instead of saying, “Well, send your job ads out to different types of arenas,” well, why would you do that? Normally, when we send out a job ad, let’s say in English, we would send it to the Modern Language Association job call list. But who are the people who actually look at that job call list? If you look at the demographics for who’s actually MLA members, paying members, who’s going to be accessing that, you might actually find that you have people from maybe elite institutions making up the majority of the membership, or you have people from very specific geographic backgrounds, people from very specific socioeconomic backgrounds, and so without meaning to, you’re limiting the pool of people. You’re being very selective without even realizing it. So, if you want to be more expansive in who’s getting the job calls, you need to know the history behind why it ends up being that it’s so selective, and then being able to move forward. Well, where are the other places where you can send the job ads? I don’t think people are intentionally ignoring the variety of places you can put them, but sometimes it’s just a matter of knowing where to go. So, all of this is to say I created this capstone, and while I was doing it, like the good English professor [LAUGHTER] that I am, I wrote an article. And when I wrote the article, it was a mix of different types of theories and historical background and information, and I sent it to a journal. I didn’t think it was going to inherently be a knockout of the park, but I thought I would get feedback, and the feedback that I got was that it was too narrowly tailored, that creating a process to increase representation of different types of faculty in Higher Ed was too narrowly tailored of a [LAUGHTER] focus, which, it is what it is. Maybe whoever was reading it, that’s the way they thought about it. And I channeled Michelle Obama [LAUGHTER] in that moment. I was like, “Well, I don’t think that this should end here. So what do we do?” And I pitched it to what was then Lexington Books, to say, “I’m not the only one who’s thinking about these things. How do we do work that makes higher ed fulfill its promise of academic excellence for all?” And so I went to Lexington Press. They picked up a contract to create an edited collection that was going to have voices from all different fields of academia, and from there, it moved forward to the call for papers and then a wonderful collection.

Rebecca: Can you talk a little bit about how you selected contributors for your project?

Roberta: Absolutely. So I was very fortunate to, in my time at HLI, get to meet a wonderful array of academics and administrators, people who genuinely care about their campuses and the people that they serve. So one person was running the pediatrics residency for one of the SUNY campuses. Another person who runs camp programs, AOP, for one campus, and their projects were speaking to the very things that my project was speaking to. So when I got the contract, I was able to solicit submissions from people who I knew were already doing this work, and I was also able to reach out to faculty from around the campus and from Oswego, who I knew that were doing work that was very similar, and nationwide. So I reached out to administrators who I knew, who are doing this work, and doctors, people who are practicing and working in education and artists as well, and asked people if they would be willing to share. And I think I was very fortunate with the timing, because where I sent the call for papers, I got a number of people responding as well. So for instance, from Virginia Tech, there’s a center there where people who were working there created a chapter, sent it to me, and then faculty had come together as well to create a chapter and send it in. So in some cases, it was a matter of the people who I knew doing this work and also getting them to sit down. Nobody has spare time. [LAUGHTER] So being able to find people who would be able to carve time out of their schedules to sit and write and create transcripts, work on artwork, there are testimonials, and there’s also personal narratives, there’s letters. So knowing people who had some things that they would like to submit, and then being able to find other people who were also in it. And one thing that was interesting about it was that the chapters are also varied. So there’s three different sections for the book. The first one is about personal responses to what’s going on with DEI in Higher Ed in the country. The second is about pedagogy, and how do you teach? How do you even create a syllabi? And then the third is about administrative tactics and techniques that can be implemented. All of the chapters were very different, and even though one might focus on, for instance, there’s a chapter on how to create a course for Introduction to Criminal Justice. Some of the techniques that are being proffered in that chapter might seem on the surface like they’re very specific to that department, but they’re not. How do you create a syllabus that has readings that students can access if they can’t afford them? In another chapter, how do you have students introduce themselves in ways that don’t put them in front of their peers and having to say things that might be a little personal, but at the same time, ensuring that the classroom is a space where they know they will be honored and respected for their differences and that their differences won’t be treated as deficiencies. How do you go about doing that? Well, these chapters offer suggestions, and again, with the idea that we all go through training to become members of higher ed, but sometimes there are things that we just don’t know or maybe weren’t made available to us when we were working to become faculty members or administrators and so these are those opportunities to also sit back and question, “what were the thought processes behind why I did that?” [LAUGHTER] You know, “why did I go about choosing these things?” So when the chapters all came in and the artwork was coming in, I was able to sit down and really see a lot of richness in each one beyond even just kind of like that surface level read, which was really exciting actually.

John: For several decades, educational institutions at all levels have put quite a bit of emphasis on DEI initiatives. But in the last year or so, a little over a year here, we’ve seen that under very heavy attack in the federal level, and also we’ve seen quite a few attacks at the level of various states. You address this a bit in your introductory chapter, which is entitled,”It’s Not a Death Knell, It’s a Call to Arms.” Can you give us an overview of the arguments in this chapter?

Roberta: So I don’t know how everybody responded to hearing about that Supreme Court case where they decided that race could not be used as part of the decision making process for admittance to higher education. I think one of the elements of it that’s been very confusing for me has been that the Supreme Court requires that questions be and decisions being narrowly tailored and limited in scope. And the verdict that came out, that was read, the decision was very clear that this was about how race as a category is used in admissions processes. The expansion of it since then to apply to things like scholarships and to apply to programs have been, if we’ve noticed, like on the state level in most cases. So we’re seeing in like Texas, and this is not a knock on Texas, I used to live in Texas, Road Runner all the way.[LAUGHTER] But we’re seeing state level and regional level now taking up the impetus and saying, “Well, we can’t talk about things that are going to make people uncomfortable,” and that’s kind of been the language of it. And we saw it during the first administration, right? There was that executive order that you couldn’t teach things that are going to make people uncomfortable, and it’s such an interesting concept that some people are not allowed to be made to feel uncomfortable, and some people are. And the question is, “why are some allowed and some are not?” And that introductory chapter, it did recognize that we do need to grieve, because it’s a dream, right? Our ideals are wonderful things. They’re goals that we are always striving to and even if we think that we’re achieving them, we always have more that we can do, and so to have made so many strides, to have been pushing and pushing for something as basic as recognition of infrastructural inequity and inequality, and then to have it be brought up as something that is the thing that’s going to be attacked… it hurts. It genuinely hurts. And for all the people who would go to college and can see themselves as deserving of an education, and then the idea that they would be turned around to and told “No, you’re not worthy of learning.” That hurts. And so we do need to grieve, but we don’t give up. We’ve been seeing this since the ‘60s. We’ve been seeing this since the ‘20s. We’ve been seeing this since the 1880s, the 1860s, we’ve been seeing this for centuries in the United States… that we don’t give up, we just change strategy. One thing that was happening around this decision, and then that came and, as you noted, especially in the most recent months, just the constant barrage of it, but we’ve also been seeing the mechanisms of this country coming forward and saying “No, you are allowed [LAUGHTER] to have opinions, you are allowed to teach content, you are allowed to have policies to make campuses spaces of learning.” I think one thing about it has been, though, that we’ve had to also take stock of what we’ve done in the past and if DEI has been treated as a side piece or as a token gesture, yeah, some of those do end up having problems within them. So if we say, “We’re going to create scholarships for a particular community.” Well, why? What was the thought process behind that? And I think sometimes, when we lose sight of what the reasoning is behind things, then things can become token gestures, and we need to reevaluate those too. Every time we’re doing something new, that’s part of the process of being in higher education too. We need to constantly be reflecting on what we’re doing, what’s working, what’s not working. And so that first chapter, it acknowledges the pain that many no doubt feel and continue to feel about what’s going on, but also a reminder, now is the time to keep going. Now is the time to regroup, think through, self critique, self analyze, come together as community and look at what we can do to move forward, because we don’t give up on our students, we don’t give up on our programs, and that’s why [LAUGHTER] we got into these fields, I would hope, or I think, because we do believe in education as just being something that should be available to all.

Rebecca: So your chapter kind of sets the stage for the first section of the book, which contains a number of essays responding to these attacks, policy attacks. What are some of the other suggestions that are raised in this section, or those actions that you’re kind of pointing to?

Roberta: So the first section of the edited collection is very personal. And I think one of the things that gets lost in the debates about DEI in Higher Ed, is that it is very personal. It is people’s very lives. It is their futures. It is people trying to figure out who they’re going to become, and especially if you’re from communities that have historically been told, “You don’t have a future,” it’s personal. You feel it in your very flesh. It’s not abstract, it’s not a concept, it’s reality. And so if we’re going to really do the work of ensuring that Higher Ed serves everyone, we need to be very cognizant of the very human toll of getting into college and being on a campus and graduating and becoming whatever we’re gonna be in the future. So that these first entries in the book are really about setting that stage, about centering the different types of ways of knowing that people have, the different types of experiences that inform who they are when they set foot on a campus or in a classroom or in an office, and then also thinking about, what are our different responsibilities to each other? Is it just that we’re going to say, “Well, we’re all different,” or is it “We’re all different and difference isn’t deficiency. Difference means an opportunity to learn and grow and be together and shift and transform and make new places and ways of knowing and ways of thinking.” It includes lots of different contributors. So there’s artists, there’s photography, there’s poetry, there’s letters to people, there’s personal statements, and these were all designed to very much center the human experience of being in higher ed.

John: The second section, as you already mentioned, focuses on strategic curriculum. Could you share with our listeners some of the suggestions that are provided by the authors in this section?

Roberta: Yeah, and actually, I’m going to give the title of one of the chapters because it was just good, “You Can’t Heal Us if You Don’t Even Know Us: Music, Medicine, and Rethinking Pre-Med Curriculum Adaptation to Community Needs.” This particular entry was a transcript with Dr. Christophe Jackson and myself, and I was asking him… he had been working on a Fulbright, which is actually now underway. And he looks at Music and Medicine. He’s done a lot of work with the jazz musicians clinic in New Orleans. The man is brilliant, or like, when you think about brilliance embodied, that’s him. But he’s very humble, and he’s very passionate about music. He’s also very passionate about medicine, and especially for his own community, but for everybody. And while we were talking, he was sharing with me, if you were going to create a music medicine class, but fundamental to this chapter is actually thinking through the values that educators bring with them when they teach. I think all of the chapters in this section really ask faculty to take a pause and think about “what are the values that you’re bringing with you that are informing who you are and how you put together a syllabus?” And it’s not because we don’t have values or don’t know them in theory when we’re walking into class, but sometimes we get so wrapped up into making a syllabus that we don’t actually pause and think, “What do I know about the people who are coming into my classroom? What do I know about the communities that I’m actually seeking to serve?” If you don’t genuinely know, and this is to create music medicine syllabi for pre-med students… if you don’t know anything about the communities you want to serve, how are you going to serve them? Medicine is not one and done. It needs to be adjusted. It needs to be organized so that the community that’s at hand can be worked with, so that it’s not just them being told, “Oh, you have to do this, this and this,” but instead, “Do you want to be healthy? What kind of things help to be healthy in your community?” From that, we see with other chapters… so for instance, there’s one about a Master’s class for people who want to go into clinical work with mental health, again, thinking through, how do we hold ourselves accountable when we’re creating syllabi, but also in ways that allow students to engage in those practices of self reflection, so that when they leave college, if they already have a profession in mind, they can consider those or use those skills to help them along their own career paths and that is something that many of us are thinking about. You come to college, you learn all of this information, but you’re also figuring out who you want to be in the next phases of your life. And so these, I don’t know what they would be called, like, not soft skills, I’m trying to think of like those kind of invisible elements of the class where you figure out, who are you going to be, how are you going to deliver information to people? When you hear critique, how do you respond? Those are elements that are fundamental to a class but often don’t get talked about. And so when you have a chapter that asks you to consider about using self in relationship to understand another, about cultural humility and empathy through storytelling and counselor training curriculum, you’re being shown those kind of tools that you can bring into your class, even if you’re not teaching a mental health practitioner class. There are other ones that are a bit more specific in terms of field and going into what’s typically called Ethnic Studies, but it’s a pan area, right? So there’s one critically teaching Asian American Studies at an Asian American Studies-less University. So Asian American Studies covers a wide range. It’s very interdisciplinary. If you don’t have an actual department, though, that’s dedicated to that learning. So for instance, Urbana Champaign has an Asian-American studies program. If you don’t have faculty who are directly dedicated to that because you don’t have a department, how do you go about teaching it? So they actually offer a syllabi that they’ve crafted, engaging students, engaging faculty, getting workshops together, doing learning activities. So there’s one for Angel Island, where you get to learn about people’s experiences traveling to the United States and what sort of scenarios they would have encountered. These are very real learning opportunities, very tangible learning opportunities that can have major impacts on students and again, helping them see who they are in the learning process. So even if you’re not teaching Asian-American Studies, this is an assignment that you can then adapt to your own models, to model in your own classes that maybe you hadn’t thought about before or even known that that was a resource available to you. So section two tries to offer different strategies. They might look field-specific on the surface, but when you actually get to look into the chapter more deeply, you find all of these different techniques that are fun in many cases, and really thoughtful and engaging.

Rebecca: I love the wide variety of offerings that you’ve described in these sections. Now we’re fortunate to be working at a public institution in a state system that’s actively working to provide more equitable Higher Ed outcomes, but historically marginalized populations are still experiencing lower rates of persistence to graduation. What are some of the sources of these inequities?

Roberta: There was an article that just came out, and it’s these scientists trying to explain why there is intergenerational poverty. And since we have all of these things, like social programs that are in theory, designed to, quote, unquote, “get people out of it,” then it must be genetic. The article just came out in like 2026. So in 2026 we are still hearing iterations of eugenics propaganda coming out as science. Because what would make sense if we have all of these social programs that people just don’t seem to be rising and fundamental to this study was a refusal to acknowledge that intergenerational poverty is not a matter of genes. That even if there are social programs that are available, are they inherently designed to help people get out of intergenerational poverty? Or are they meant to, and I’m going to quote Martin Espada here, “teach you to shuffle forward for charity.” If they are designed to help you to live a life that you are proud of, to cultivate the skills that you wake up in the morning and are thrilled to have, my guess would be that you would then be able to engage the world around you in a way that is meaningful to you. If we’re thinking about then how education links to that, then you would be attending college, and you would be dedicated to an education that would allow you to actuate those very things. But if we’re not in that system, if we’re not in that world, if we’re in a world that’s designed to teach you to shuffle forward, then you’re not being taught to cultivate those best parts of yourself. And even if you are able to attain some of those aspects, there’s a lot behind it that just isn’t there for you. When we talk about in introductory classes, for instance, for students who are coming in, if you are from a school that… and we’re seeing this more now, and I’m not trying to throw shade on people who are all about technology… I am not… but science is still showing that children learn better with direct, one-on-one contact with a human being. But if you’re from schools that highly emphasize, or heavily emphasize the use of technology, rather than that direct one-on-one attention because of class size or whatever, those children are going to be learning differently than children who go to affluent schools where they do have lower child-to-teacher ratios. And so you start to see from very, very early ages, disparities in what children are learning. And so then you get students coming to college who genuinely want to learn, genuinely want to finish their degree. But what support mechanisms do you have there that are, one, going to actually help them get through the program in a way that’s responsible? And the next thing is, how are you going to do so in a way where the student is able to cultivate an identity that is meaningful to them? Where they’re not just a number, where they’re not just a tuition payment or whatever it is. And we’re starting to hear that economic descriptions more and more about education, and when we do that, then these students who are really struggling to try and make it through, ‘Do you see yourself as part of the campus?” There’s these discussions about belonging. We’re in campuses from an educational model that was designed centuries ago with very specific people in mind about who was going to attend them. What we’re trying to do now is retrofit them to meet these needs and that very real question that I think this book takes up is, “What are the things that we can retrofit, and what are the things that we can just imagine as new and run with those new things too?” I think when we talk about social inequalities, too, it becomes a space where people can start to feel very defensive, and that breaks down conversations, because it’s like, “Well, you know, this money is going over here, and it should be doing all of these things that make differences,” but it’s about how everyone’s involved in it. Everyone from children from rural communities where the school year is dependent on harvest season, to children whose families move because of harvest season, to people who are veterans, to people who are single parents and trying to get degrees so that they can get jobs that will hopefully pay so that they can send their kids to a better school, and that kind of process. So when we talk about these social inequalities and how they show up in college settings, we’re talking about this large, interconnected, intertwined ball of threads and strings, and pulling at one or the other might not be the thing that helps a student get through maybe all of them are. But I think this book offers some insights. When you have students who need more assistance, what sort of things can we do to offer that help in the classroom, and then also administratively?

John: So students come in with different backgrounds because of the quality of the schools and differences in parents’ education and other things which affect where students start at when they enter the school system, and we have a lot of systemic inequality. But, when we have the students coming into our classes, what can faculty do to help reduce some of these equity gaps in outcomes, to create more of a sense of belonging and to help all students be more successful?

Roberta: So read Section two of this book. [LAUGHTER] I mean, some of the things are about very technical pieces, So like, how are things laid out, what types of resources are available with the syllabus and so on. But then there are sometimes things that are less obvious, and they come from the things that we were taught when we were getting our educations that we replicate. When we have a professor we like, we replicate what they did, because it obviously worked. But I think there is some privileging. For instance, reading. Something as basic as that, but also that students are bringing with them different types of knowledge, different types of critical ways of knowing, and that many times, those aren’t being represented in the content of the classes, in the curriculum, because we’ve been taught to focus on one particular thing or one particular way of knowing. And here I’m thinking, this isn’t in the book, but just if I’m a student and I’m not used to having math classes where I see any of the things I care about represented, and all of a sudden I’m being shown how math is actually important in all of these different realms of my life taught from a way that my community speaks, then I’m going to learn it differently than if I’m shown something on the board and then somebody steps away. The ways that I’m going to engage the space, the sort of questions, and this is from section two, now, how do you just even set out the room so that when students come in, they have space to sit down? How do you go about offering assignments? What sort of options do you have for them? So if you offer, let’s say if you have a reading list, and you are requiring students to purchase books and they have to have physical books, when do the grants that help them purchase books come out? If you’re setting them a text that they need to buy and they need to be reading before that grant comes out, they can’t afford the book, that’s why they’re getting the grant. So maybe adjusting when you’re going to start assigning texts that they need to purchase and front loading things like articles that maybe you can give online or things that you can print and give out to them. Simple adjustment, doesn’t call anyone out, but takes into account that some of the students in the class might very well only be able to buy books as soon as that grant comes through on the first Friday of the semester. In other cases, things like having policies that allow students to step out of the class in the event that something becomes triggering for them, not knowing if students have certain types of traumatic experiences in their histories. So saying, “If you need to leave for 15 minutes, step out of the room for 15 minutes, come back in, we have resources available to you.” Things like having, on the campus itself… so this isn’t so much controlled by faculty, but administratively… food kitchens where students who might be experiencing difficulties being able to purchase food, where they can go and get items that they need. Things like professional development workshops on campus. So students who are the first in their families to be graduating college might be the first in their families to be going for these professional level careers. Do they know how to choose a suit that fits? That might sound real simple to some people, like, “Yeah, you don’t want gapping around the pockets, and the shirt has to fall in a certain way.” But if this isn’t your family, you have no idea, and it can be very intimidating to ask for help. So does the campus offer those kinds of services? If they offer professional level clothing, do they offer the other part of it that maybe shows students these other skills that we take for granted as everybody having, but that a lot of students might not have, and so being able to access that, and in a way that doesn’t call them out, that doesn’t act as if it’s charity, but instead, this is part of the experience, and everyone should have it.

Rebecca: Really appreciate, as a designer, you talking about the difference between designing for equity in the s tart versus retrofitting something that was definitely not designed with equity in mind at the back end, right? Those experiences are different, our ability to create equitable experiences are actually quite different under those different circumstances. One of the things that you were just talking about points to the need that faculty have to understand some of the other systems that exist that are outside of the curriculum or outside of their subject matter, like the timing of when grants might be available, or how financial aid works,[LAUGHTER] because those actually have significant impact on the experiences of students at our institutions, and we can make design choices that think about some of those things that are in place, that maybe aren’t as easy to change, or they certainly aren’t going to change at the same speed [LAUGHTER] that we can adapt or adjust a class. I really appreciate that thought. Can you talk a little bit more about, maybe the responsibility faculty might want to take for better understanding some of these other systems, so that they can account for things like this?

Roberta: So it’s a hard balance, right? Because, on the one hand, and this is something I’m very cognizant of, I have curriculum that I have to teach, and I have to make sure that I deliver it accurately and responsibly. It’s easy to get lost in that and we have all of these other pressures. Because teaching alone isn’t it. There’s teaching, there’s service, there’s scholarship, and there’s conferences, and sometimes you get to the end of the day and spend 13 hours, and you know that there’s more [LAUGHTER] for the next day. So I think part of this is not so much adding to the plate, but instead shifting. And I’ve been hearing about the use of the language of shifting. How are we just going to shift over rather than asking faculty to have these extra heavy loads when there’s already so much on the plate? And I think that part of that can be done using mechanisms that we already have. So things like academic affairs retreats, professional development workshops that our campuses offer, even when we go to conferences or things like that. But having people, instead of saying, “Here’s a list of things you have to put on your syllabus,” and then moving on, having opportunities for, for instance, financial aid to come in and meet with faculty, and maybe it’s more of there’s a lot of us, [LAUGHTER] there’s few of them, there’s more of us. So having them come to like department meetings and actually walking us through when certain things will hit and when they don’t. I know about, for instance, a grant for books, because my first semester on campus, students told me about it. Before that, and I know we’re not supposed to do this, but I would just say, “You need a copy of the reading? Here’s my book. Do what you need to do. Just give me the book back before class, so that I have time to prepare.” And you know, they’d be photocopying or taking photos with their phones. But then they told me about this grant, and I was like, “Well, that’s essential to know.” [LAUGHTER] If you can’t buy the book, you can’t buy the book. So then looking at library resources, showing them how to get access to books from interlibrary loan if they’re like, “I genuinely cannot afford this book.” What can you get through Interlibrary Loan? What sort of resources do we have? So having workshops like that with faculty can be very helpful, but it has to be timed. So, you know, we have due dates as well. So having syllabi available by a certain date means that we have to be thinking about spring semester like the year before. So it’s about finding those timings that work with faculty schedules and requirements from the campus itself, and offering those and also, I think the importance of professional development time for faculty, I think across the nation, is kind of hard to find time for right now, but it’s a necessity. If we can sit down and say, “Okay, here are the actual skills that I want them to have? What are the variety of fun things that go along with those?” If I want them to be considering how to find an argument in a poem, I am not a technology person, so bear with me, can I have them distill it down to a meme? (I just learned about memes not too long ago.) And then, “How do I get them to work with that?” So this is using their own sensibilities, drawing from their own cultural knowledges, their own backgrounds, thinking through what sort of resources they have available to them. They’re still going to know how to be able to distill an argument. They’re still going to be able to identify and articulate what is it this person wants me to get and how are they trying to persuade me, but doing so in a manner that allows them to cultivate their own knowledges and not saying, “Well, this is the only way to do it. This is the only option that we have.” But instead offering these varieties. Now, as an English professor, I am always going to end up coming back to the written word, and that’s okay, there’s nothing wrong with that. But what are the flexibilities that are available around that? That students can engage? What different angles can we offer for students to come into the conversation from, while still holding standards and working with students to find that they are very capable of achieving these things? I’m thinking of the book, Nuyorganics, and it’s this brilliant book… it came out a few years back… but about having students cultivate their cultural knowledges and organic intellectualism, combining that to create different types of assignments in the classroom that then move forward. But we need time to be able to do this. And so, in a perfect world, we would have time to do it. So maybe this is something then, that individual departments can start thinking through. If this matters to us, if it’s not a token gesture that we want academic excellence for all, let’s create times and some of the stuff that’s mandatory, like meetings or whatever the case may be, where everybody gets together and actually have somebody come in as a guest and speak to us about some of the things that they’re doing that work, or maybe some processes for finding things that might work for them. I think key to this all too, though, is that it’s not about not making standards or things for students, but instead helping them cultivate the very real skills that they need for success. And that’s part of the conversation too and I think going back to the question about students finding ways to make it through college versus some who are not, this is part of that whole complex system. What resources do they have, and do they know how to, from their own lens and from their own styles, engage these? That there isn’t just one way of going about things or one way of doing it that’s correct, but all these varieties that are available to them.

John: As Rebecca noted, we’re lucky to live in a state where there is still support for diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives and attempts to try to make things work better for all students, but we do see a number of states that are imposing some really serious restrictions on what people are allowed to teach. They’re redefining our history, redefining science, and limiting what can be talked about in terms of many issues. What advice would you give to faculty who are trying to help students in that environment?

Roberta: I think the first thing would be, know the law and not the law as you’re being told it’s the law, but what is the actual letter of the law. If you know the letter of the law, if you know what it actually says, and you have a cohort of people that similarly know what it actually says, you can make decisions about your response rather than being caught in the moment and having to react. And I think that one struggle people are having is that they’re being put into situations where they’re having to react on the spot. And it’s not that their reactions are bad. They’re human, and what they’re responding to [LAUGHTER] in many cases just doesn’t make sense. I will give them that. But we also have to acknowledge that the paradigm has shifted, and we cannot respond the way that we thought it worked when it’s already shifted. We have to know what’s happening now and what is our relationship to that. I heard a statistic recently about people’s desire for their children to go to college and get degrees, and, you know, it’s lower than it was 20 years ago. That’s about faith in education and faith in the learning process, and in states where people seem to be vilified for wanting to give education books, being thrown away, it’s hard to maintain faith in the very things that we know in our core are right, which is that you don’t discriminate against people because of their race, their ethnicity, their socioeconomic backgrounds, their gender, their sexuality, and disability. And we’re thinking about different ways of knowing. We know this. And I think sometimes the small group of people that are shouting the loudest seem to be the ones that make up the majority, and they don’t. We’re seeing pushes against restriction of political thought. We’re seeing pushes that are being successful, against the attempt to restrict access of education to certain communities. The momentum has to maintain though, we can’t back down from it, and we have to also remember that we need to remind people we are supporting them, that we are here for them, that we will do what we can to support them, that we have not given up the fight, right? It’s not a death knell. It is a call to arms, and we are ready. We might need breaks. [LAUGHTER] Some of us might need to rest every now and again, and that’s totally fine, but we don’t give up. We keep going, and we will continue to be supportive.

John: In line with what you’ve just suggested, back in 1853, Theodore Parker said that “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” And this is a quote that was frequently repeated by both Martin Luther King and by President Obama. Do you think we’re going to get back on a better path in the near future?

Roberta: There’s a quote from a book called King Solomon’s Mines, British fiction from I guess a century almost now, ago. And the book is very problematic, but there’s a line in it that goes, “Where there is life, there is hope.” And as much as the book is super messed up, and I’m not advocating anyone read it, I take great comfort in that, that we always have the ability to move forward, that if there is life anywhere, that we can always continue to cultivate the best parts of ourselves to make the world a better place and I think for a long time, we haven’t necessarily been encouraged to cultivate those best parts of ourselves, when you turn on the media, when you turn on the television, whatever it might be, seeing people screaming at each other, seeing people waving flags in each other’s faces, on both sides. And we think about like the polarization of the United States, this has gone on, you know, it’s older than me. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t those of us who really believe in education. That really believe in the ability to learn and grow and find those better parts of ourselves and be open to change. And change is not easy, change is difficult. It hurts. When we grow, we go through growth spurts and our bodies hurt. We grow teeth and our gums hurt, but it’s okay, because on the other side of that, growth is something very real. And right now, we are in a space of growth, and I turn to Gloria Anzaldúa here, because I think about the path to “conocimiento,” which means the path to coming to consciousness. And it goes up, it goes down, it goes left, it goes right, it spirals, and sometimes you think you’ve got it, and nope, you’re right at the beginning again. But if you can engage the process, you will start coming into these movements of complexity and being able to figure out new realities for yourself. I do think that things will get better. I don’t know how long it will take. I would like to say tomorrow, and maybe for some of us it will be, apparently, the planets just realigned themselves last week, and I take great hope in that. [LAUGHTER] But genuinely, I do think that there is hope for the future. When I hear some of the things that my students talk about… I just went through midterms, and seeing some of these midterms just renews your faith in everything, because you’re like, “Thank you. Thank you for believing you could do something that was different. Thank you for trusting the process and yourself enough to engage in this, even if it was new and scary and different.” It’s okay to cultivate those parts of their imaginations and creativity in combination with critical thinking. I think one of the major attacks right now is on critical thinking skills. We don’t give up on those. We hunker down with them. That might make us dangerous, but it also means that we know how to ask good questions, and it’s going to be those people who are able to ask good questions that are going to lead us into the future. I think about Brenda Marie Osbey. She was the poet laureate of Louisiana a few years back, and I got to meet her one time, and she said, “the job of the artist isn’t to answer the question. The job of the artist is to ask them and then to follow these questions through all of their different pathways and find all these nuances and things that we weren’t thinking about or things that we weren’t considering and bringing those to light.” Yeah, that’s it, that ability to think, the ability to create, the ability to continue moving. We do have a lot of pain that we haven’t dealt with, centuries in the making that we do have to deal with, and maybe that’s part of why we’re in this moment now. But that doesn’t mean we can’t come out the other side of it. We just have to have faith that there is another side of it, and I genuinely believe there is.

Rebecca: Given that John has already asked about your crystal ball. I’ll ask a follow up. We always end by asking, what’s next? It could be personally, professionally, the book, any way you want to spin it.

Roberta: So I have a book chapter coming out in a collection called ¿Y Yo También?, and it’s about Latinas and the Me Too movement. And it’s got creative pieces in it, it’s got scholarly works in it, but it’s designed so that anyone can read it, which is awesome, because sometimes we have these very jargon laden conversations about people’s very real experiences that can make it hard for everyone to join in the conversation. So I love this book. It’s coming out with Rutgers University Press this coming fall. The faculty member is in New York, her name is Melissa, and again, coming out this fall. I have a second monograph that I just finished called, But is it sexy? that looks at representation of eroticism in Puerto Rican women’s literature, which was incredible to get to research and write and I’m looking forward to that. Moving forward, I’m going to be presenting at NADOHE, which is the National Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Ed at the end of March. And then next spring, I get to teach poetry, which I’m excited about. And then this semester, I have two more guest artists coming as part of a larger series. Denise Chávez will be joining us, as well as Melissa Rivero at the end of the semester. So these are all major moments of excitement, and I very much look forward to.

John: Well, thank you. It was great talking to you, and I hope your book makes an impact on people.

Roberta: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Rebecca: Yeah, thank you for all your work.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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441. Teaching = Coaching

Coaches and teachers work to develop skills by providing structured learning environments, motivational strategies, and individual feedback. In this episode, Christian Fauria and Constanza Bartholomae join us to discuss the similarities among coaching, teaching, and the work of educational developers.

Christian is a former NFL tight end who played 13 seasons and won two Super Bowl Championships with the New England Patriots, and a national champion at the University of Colorado. Following his retirement from football, Christian transitioned into sports media, working as a college football analyst for ESPN and CBS, while co-hosting a radio show on WEEI in Boston. He is now a Professional in Residence at Bryant University in the Communication and Language Studies Department, teaching courses in sports broadcasting and organizational leadership in sports. Constanza is the Interim Director of the Center of Teaching Excellence at Bryant University.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Coaches and teachers work to develop skills by providing structured learning environments, motivational strategies, and individual feedback. In this episode, we discuss the similarities among coaching, teaching, and the work of educational developers.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guests today are Christian Fauria and Constanza Bartholomae. Christian is a former NFL tight end who played 13 seasons and won two Super Bowl Championships with the New England Patriots, and a national champion at the University of Colorado. Following his retirement from football, Christian transitioned into sports media, working as a college football analyst for ESPN and CBS, while co-hosting a radio show on WEEI in Boston. He is now a Professional in Residence at Bryant University in the Communication and Language Studies Department, teaching courses in sports broadcasting and organizational leadership in sports. Constanza is the Interim Director of the Center of Teaching Excellence at Bryant University. Welcome Christian and welcome back, Constanza.

Christian: Thanks for having us. It’s my first time. I’m excited.

John: It’s great to meet you. Today’s teas are:… Christian, are you drinking any tea?

Christian: I do. I call this my hearty mug. I got a little green tea in there. Nothing but the tea, no sugar, no nothing, no additives. I keep it clean. That’s what I got this morning.

Rebecca: That’s the way to do it.

John: And Constanza?

Constanza: I’ve got my favorite tea. It’s African Nectar from Mighty Leaf. And if you’re someone who doesn’t like tea, or you’re up for an adventure, this is the tea to try. I have convinced many folks who are not tea drinkers, that tea is an option with this particular one.

Christian: Nice.

John: And Rebecca?

Rebecca: I have a Scottish Breakfast tea today, John.

John: An old favorite.

Rebecca: It is.

John: And I have a Lapsang Souchong today, a smoked tea.

Christian: Ooh, fancy.

John: it is. It smells like there’s a wood fire right next to me, and I’m hoping that’s not the case, because I am in an office building here on campus.

Rebecca: We invited you both here today to discuss the working relationship that you’ve developed at Bryant University. Can you each tell us a little bit about how you began working together?

Christian: Okay, so I’ll make a long, long story short, because this will take about an hour. So like you mentioned in the intro, played in the NFL, worked in media forever, got fired some random day, and then just kind of walked around trying to figure out, like, what was I going to do next? I had no idea what I was going to do, and I decided that I wanted to teach. I never wanted to coach a sport other than my kids, because coaches in the college level and in the pro level, they have no life. I wanted a life, so I decided that, with some input from my wife, I said, Yeah, let’s do that. So what I did is I created a syllabus about broadcasting, things that I thought were important. I sent it out an email to like, 10 different schools here in the Northeast region. The only school that did not reply to me was Harvard, and then all the other nine replied to me, and then I just narrowed it down to Bryant. And I’ve never taught before other than a sport, so I was really kind of lost as far as how I should go about it. I knew what I wanted to say, but I didn’t really know how to form it. I didn’t know how to create it. I didn’t know a grading scale. I was very, very green. And when I found out about the CTE center, I met Constanza, and she was like a beacon of hope for me, because she really just explained things as simple as possible for me to understand them. And not only was she good at the technical side. I thought that she was really good at the emotional and physical side as well, because I had no real belief in myself that I could do it. I know I could say what I wanted to say, but I didn’t really know if I could actually get my message across. And then I hijacked all her time, because that’s what I basically did. I hijacked all her time. I would come in there unannounced. I would ask her at the last minute: “I’m stressing out. My class is in five minutes. What should I do?” She was always available. She was always encouraging, she always motivated me the right way. And for me, it was like she was doing all the same things that my coaches did throughout my 13 year NFL career, my five year college career, and then my high school career. It was this exact same thing. It was just a different message, a different tool that she was using, as far as, instead of, like blocking and catching, it was rubrics and teaching philosophies and structure. So again, to me, she became such a good, valuable asset, and then she just became a good friend. So that’s my approach to how we met and how we started working together.
.

Constanza: And on my end, Christian’s department chair said, “I’ve got someone for you to meet. We’ve got this new faculty member. You’re going to love him. And oh, by the way, he used to play for the Patriots.” Now, what his department chair didn’t know? What Christian didn’t know is because I grew up in a family where my dad was European and not into American football, didn’t understand it. And my mom also did not watch sports. I knew nothing about football, like I’ve heard of the Patriots, of course, I live in Massachusetts. I didn’t know who Christian was. I didn’t know how famous he was, what his reputation was. So in comes walking this very energetic and excited human being. And again, I had no idea about anything about who he was or what his subject matter was. And I went home and I said “I had a really cool teaching consult today” to my husband, and he’s like, “Who is it with?” And I was like, “Christian Fauria? And he’s like, “No way. I used to listen to him on the radio on the way home from work.” And I was like, “Oh, that’s cool,” but the more that we interacted, the more I got to know Christian and I was like, “Wow, what a great hire. You’ve got someone who’s so full of life and personality and experience,” and although a lot of times what will happen in the Center for Teaching Excellence is that folks will come in and I don’t necessarily have the same subject matter expertise as they do. I’ve never had, clearly, a career in football or in sports broadcasting. I get to hear about what matters to them, what makes them excited, what they love to learn about. And then we get to talk about, okay, how do we convey this over to your students? And then on top of that, as you both have seen from us talking with Christian he’s just really, really funny and just uplifting and human sunshine. So that was an added benefit. Yeah, for sure,

John: Christian, your experience of coming in without much teaching experience or without much of a background in effective teaching practices is something that’s pretty common for many faculty, but your reaction to it was a little bit different than most faculty. Most faculty just tend to rely on what they had experienced when they were students, and that’s not always the best way of preparing for teaching at the college level. What made you decide to approach the teaching center? Was it a suggestion from the chair, or was this something that you just wanted to find out more about before getting into the class?

Christian: So I had an idea of how I wanted to approach the class, but I graduated college in 1995, so it’d been a long time, and I never really had any professors that I remember making any sort of impact on my life whatsoever. The impact that was made on my life was always from my coaches. So I really wanted to find a way to coach the students or teach the students like I was coached and I didn’t know what I was allowed to do, I didn’t know how far I could go, and that’s why I came to Constanza. I was like, “Listen, this is kind of my idea,” so I really relied on her a lot, to mold my class and to guide me through how I should do things and why I should do these things. Because I really wanted to create, like, first day standards. I wanted to really hammer that home, and I really want to let them know that this is not your ordinary class, like what you’re used to. We’re going to turn that on its head. So yes, that was kind of my approach in the very beginning. Now it’s changed over time, but the initial idea was just that, like, here’s all this information I have. It reminds me of like someone who waits for the last minute to do their taxes, and they got, like, receipts everywhere, and then Constanza’s my accountant. I said, “Here, fix it.” “Okay, how much time do I got?” “20 minutes.” That’s kind of the way I was. And I never left there, I never left her office, scared. I always left her office with not necessarily a pep talk, but just a reassurance that I was doing it the right way, and I shouldn’t listen to the insecurities in my head about what I thought the students were going to think about me or say about me while I was saying it.

Constanza: I think to add on to that, we all need to feel like the work that we are doing matters and is important. And I think that that’s really, if there is a secret sauce to teaching, it’s okay, how do we work with faculty to remind them about why they’re here and why what they’re doing matters, especially in an age where we’re talking a lot about a lack of focus or attention or disengagement. I was listening to Jessica Riddell talk at the AAC&U annual meeting, and she said, “I’ve been thinking a lot about the time that we’re in, and I don’t know if necessarily it’s disruption, but a rupture in the educational system, first with the covid pandemic, then with the advent of generative AI, and so there’s a lot of reworking going on in the teaching field right now, trying to really explain, like, what is our teaching philosophy? Why is what we’re doing important?” And so I think that working with faculty in the educational development space, like how I’m able to work with Christian is such an honor, because we really get to help them re- explore their passions and think about how they can translate that over. And one thing that I noticed about Christian right away is, as he said, he cared a lot. I know he’s made comments and said, “How can I do this in 20 minutes?” But actually, we were meeting so much more frequently than that, and he was thinking things through and planning out his whole semester. And so in certain ways, I was like, “Okay, well, we’re in January. Let’s not worry about April for a little bit, but let’s focus on the next few weeks.” I think, in that sense, I knew here’s someone who cares about their students, their outcomes, but also their well being, and that is someone I can really, really work with, because ultimately, at the end of the day, I tell my students, I care about you learning content, but I care more about how you feel in the classroom. And that was Christian. He’s like, “I’ve got the content in my head. I’m ready to go, but how do I make sure that it lands in a way where students are able to accept and interpret it, are able to digest it, and are able to show me that they can demonstrate understanding and meaning from it.” So it was really like the educational development perfect connection, if you will, and reminded me also of why I do what I do. So it had that impact as well.

Christian: Now, that was well said. That’s exactly how I feel about it.

Rebecca: Coaching is really relational. I’ve been observing my daughter, who is ice skating and working with coaches. And the way coaches work with individuals is often different depending on their personality and who they are. So I’m curious how you see the relationships between coaching and teaching, because I know that I’ve been observing successful coaching and thinking about, “Hmm, what is that secret sauce, and how does that translate over to teaching?” And some of it is like this coachability piece, is this willingness to accept some feedback, or wanting to have a good impact on the learner, whoever that learner might be.

Christian: I’ll go first on this one. So there’s an old saying in the sports ranks where the players don’t care about what you know until they know that you care. And I would say that’s exactly the same way, at least that’s my approach to it. And it looks different for every teacher, every coach, and I would say it looks different for every classroom, because there needs to be expectations, there needs to be trust, there needs to be accountability, there needs to be passion, there needs to be knowledge, all that stuff. It’s all the same thing. I’m telling you. It’s no different from coaching and teaching, at least from where I sit, because I’ve seen it now, and I’ve only been there for over a year, and I know that I have to show some sort of appreciation for them showing up, trying. It doesn’t mean I let them pull a fast one on me, because it goes both ways, and so I echo that sentiment to a T. And the old way of doing things in sports overall is gone the way of the typewriter. Nobody is hardcore authoritarian. It’s more transactional now in sports, based on all the different ways athletes go to school say, “I’ll give you money if you do this.” That’s not the way it is in the classroom, but I would call it, and I don’t know if I can curse on this show, there needs to be a high level of a give-a-shit factor, like you have to give a shit about what you’re doing and what you’re saying. And I think it’s very, very obvious to the students, they’re on to you quick, so you can’t pull a fast one over them. And Costanza, that’s kind of the way I feel about it.

Constanza: I think, as teachers, we’re helping students find meaning in whatever subject matter we’re teaching. And Arthur Brooks is coming out with a new book next week titled The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness. And so Oprah interviewed him last week, I think, and I listened to the podcast episode, and I was like, “Tell me more. You’re a professor and you’re studying the meaning of life. What is that?” And so for him, his definition of happiness is combined with three things: satisfaction, enjoyment and meaning. And he found in his work that meaning is where folks under 30, especially college-age students, perhaps we’re struggling the most, and so I think our job as instructors is to deliver that sense of meaning in our subject matter and really connect the dots to students now more than ever, in an age of generative AI, where folks can look up information and disinformation very easily, we need to show them the humanness behind it, the application behind it. It’s so important. The same happens in the educational development space and in the coaching space. If someone feels like they do not matter or that you wouldn’t notice them if they were absent in your class, they are far less likely to be engaged. It’s very important in my work that in the space that I’m in, where faculty come in and they are vulnerable, they’re usually talking to me about something that isn’t working. I do get folks come in and say, “This worked great. I’m so excited.” Or occasionally I’ll get someone that’ll say, “I want to upend my classroom. Let’s totally do things differently.” But usually they’re coming to me because they’re struggling with something in the classroom, and it’s really hard to be vulnerable if the person that you’re speaking with doesn’t know you or isn’t willing to be vulnerable with you in turn. So I always talk about my teaching failures, or even just to the degree that I feel comfortable, of course, and even just things that I’m going through in life at the level that I feel comfortable with, because I feel like the faculty that I work with need to get to know me. We need to develop a relationship of trust, and then we can talk about all right. “Well, here are some things that I think might need to be changed.” So that if I’m giving them feedback, even if it might be not exactly what they wanted to hear or might be difficult, they know, okay, the person who’s talking to me on the other end of this conversation cares about me as a human first and as an educator second, and they then feel more comfortable letting me know exactly what’s going on without having to sugarcoat it, or they feel comfortable walking in my door in the first place. So I think, in that sense, if we’re working in teaching centers to coach faculty on strategies that they can then use to coach students. It’s really developing what Peter Felton and Leo Lambert talk about in terms of relationship-rich education that expands beyond the classroom space that really makes a campus community full of that. I also think too, reminding ourselves that just like students who are first year that come onto campus and are new, our faculty who are new are experiencing that too. Christian is a very energetic and outgoing person, but it was his first year on campus. So like, how do we connect our faculty to different folks on campus that they can reach out to if they’re in need of support or their students are? How do we let them know about what’s available to them to make sure that they feel supported and seen? It’s not something that we always talk about, but establishing that for faculty is really, really important in faculty development work. So I think our job really is to connect and to help folks discover or rediscover their own meaning, why they matter, so that they can then, in turn, do that for their students.

Christian: Let me jump in real quick, because I do think this is important. So how do you connect? In the pros, you’re with the same group of guys for eight months, seven days a week, nine hours a day. So it’s easy to make a connection. It’s so much harder to make a real connection in college, teaching kids. So you may see them once a week, twice a week, for two hours a week. Who knows? I would say this, and it’s a pain in the butt, learn their names. Tell them you’re going to learn their names. I try to do it. I challenge, say, “Listen, by the end of the semester, if I don’t know everybody’s first and last name, if I can’t say it correctly, I will get everybody one letter grade higher than what they already have.” So I put my butt on the line because I do think most of them kind of feel like I’m just like a finance major. I’m a whatever major. I do think learning their names, or at least trying to learn their names, in the short period of time that you’re with them, I think makes a huge, huge connection. Right off the bat, I let them know I’m gonna learn everybody’s name, and it’s freaking hard, man, because there’s so many damn kids. We got so much going on, but that’s one of my goals, always.

John: And that is a topic we’ve explored on past episodes of the podcast, and specifically with Michelle Miller, who wrote a book on how to learn names. And we’ll share a link to that in the show notes. It’s a great book, and it’s a short book, too. It is difficult to learn names. You both emphasize the importance of building connection and building trust to set a foundation for everything else that happens in the classroom. What are some of the other ways in which coaching is similar to teaching, or some of the things that you may have learned from coaching that you brought into the classroom in terms of things like increasing student motivation, because we’ve all been concerned about students becoming a bit more disengaged over the last several years.

Constanza: I think, apart from getting to know your students’ names, genuinely learning who they are as individuals, is something that, unless you’re in a classroom full of 300 students… at Bryant, we do not have that. We have the luxury of having smaller class sizes. And there are many ways that you can do that. We’ve talked for years about intro surveys, but I also think too asking deeper questions. In today’s age, we need to ask questions that really ask our students what they’re hoping to gain from class, but also ask them what would make you feel like you belonged in this classroom space, or what type of classroom space has been a really great one for you, and what did that instructor do and why? So that we understand how they are able to best flourish in the classroom space. And I think that this happens in coaching a lot, too. If we ask folks, what’s the best way for you to receive feedback, some people might want you to start with accountability up front. And they might want you to say, “Well, you told me your goal was this, and you haven’t been meeting it.” For me, that would hit me with so much guilt that if somebody coached me in that way, it’s like when my husband says, Constanza, “I know that you were supposed to be working on your dissertation today. Did you do any writing?” And I’m like, “Oh, I didn’t get any writing today. I’m sorry.” Like, if I start off with that, I get really nervous. So I know, for me, that isn’t always the best way to go about it. Sometimes I have days that are anomalies where I want that, but asking students like, “What’s the best way for you to get feedback? …and sticking to that as best as you can.” I do think we need to personalize the educational space more. I think it’s hard, because just like Christian said, we’ve seen the educational space change. We didn’t talk about belonging as much as we do now, even 10 years ago. Now, it’s so crucial. I think the challenge is balancing that, because instructors are humans too, and so, for them, they’re one instructor, maybe in a room of 35 students, times three or four classes. So it’s working with instructors to coach them into okay, how do you build those connections with your students? And how do you do it in a way that isn’t going to cause you to burn out? Perhaps that’s by asking better questions. Perhaps that’s by changing the way that we ask the questions. Perhaps that’s by talking to them about different ways that they can synthesize that information, or working with their teaching center to do that. I think those are the ways that we start to do it today, because students want that. And if students feel like their instructor doesn’t care about them, they are going to be less engaged. And if faculty feel like the teaching center on their campus is not a friendly place, or is not a place where they feel comfortable or safe sharing, they’re not going to go there. And so we need to make sure that we’re really listening to the people that we are working with, whether they be students or faculty or administrators or staff, and speak their language in terms of feedback, in terms of praise. And that’s another thing too. I think in teaching, we’re always looking for ways in which our students are struggling, that we forget sometimes, that we need to also give praise and feedback on what they’re doing right, and why. Because so often we’ll see our high performers and say, “Oh, well, Susie’s fine,” like she’s got this, she did really great on this assessment, and we don’t tell them how they did really great on the assessment. And that can be a form of isolation on campus as well, if those high performers are not feeling seen. And so that’s another thing I think we really need to be thoughtful about, and we also need to be thoughtful about the faculty members that we see spotlighted a lot. They’re still human, checking in with them, seeing how they’re doing, asking what they did over the weekend. Those small things really, really matter, and can help someone feel like they’re connected or disconnected to campus.

Christian: So Constanza, you said something I was literally cracking up. That’s why the connection between the two worlds, I think, is fascinating to me. If I respected and knew that my coach cared about me and was pushing me and was challenging me the right way, and I went out there and I let them down. I felt like crap. I felt like crap because I appreciated the effort that they put into developing me, and it’s those uncomfortable conversations, because, like, I sit there, I walk in there, man, I feel like these kids are fragile… You got to be real careful with what you say to one and how you say it, and you don’t want to say the wrong word or stick your foot in your mouth. I think they want, and I don’t have a better phrase for this, Constanza, maybe we can workshop this… tough teaching. I think they want it. I think they want to be challenged. They want somebody to challenge them. Because that, to me, is like the “Oh,” like, “this was really worth it. This is a great class. I learned a lot,” and that’s what I do. And I can tell the students listen. Some of them don’t care at all. They just want to get through it. But I would say 80% of them are dialed in, and it always makes me feel better when I see them accepting the tough teaching. This was not good enough. You know what our expectations are. Why would you do it this way? You know what the standards are, like I told you the day one, and I keep reiterating it every single day. You’re so much better than that. It’s a little bit of mix of scolding but reaffirming your love for them. I’m on you. I’m talking to you this way because I know you can do better. I know you can, so don’t tell me that I don’t believe in you, because I’m showing it right now. It may not be the way you want it, but that’s the way it’s going to be given to you, because this is the way I think I can get the most out of you, and I’m real open about that. And to Constanza’s point, that’s why I was laughing, because my coaches, whenever they were like this, I was at my best; when they just kind of walked through and didn’t say anything, I didn’t care at all if I messed up, because he was a jerk. So I was fine with it.

John: That reminds me a little bit of the concept of wise feedback that’s been developed by David Yaeger and others, which is, let students know that you’re giving them feedback because you believe that they’re capable of more. In several randomized, controlled studies, it’s been shown that that increases student effort substantially.

Christian: Yeah. And to be honest with you, I was giving them feedback during the class, but I wasn’t when I was grading them, and I remember Costanza saying, “You got to give them feedback.” In my head, I’m like, “Oh, geez, there’s so many kids, like, I’m going to be writing like, a long, two page paper for each kid.” And I really appreciated that, because she was right. I felt so ashamed that I was not giving the feedback that I should have been giving them, because, to your point, it’s important for them to hear what they did wrong, what they continue to work on, and how I know they can do it. I’ve changed since the first day. I think you’re like, “You’re not giving them feedback?” I was like, “Well, I am. I’m just not giving probably enough.”

Constanza: And I think, too, we talk in higher ed a lot about the phrase “compassionate challenge.” And so Christian is able to have difficult conversations with students, or what others might perceive as difficult conversations with students, because he shows them how much he cares. And so when he says things like “Hey, like what happened here?” from someone else who doesn’t have that connection established with their student, that might be the most intimidating question ever. Christian also will say to them, like, “Hey, this is going to be challenging.” What he didn’t tell you is he brought a group of students out to radio row to cover the Super Bowl. And I’m sure he said to them, “This is going to be challenging. You’re going to have to meet people that you’ve never spoken to before.” We know for students that just speaking up in general, in today’s age, in a classroom with an instructor that they’ve gotten to know over the course of this semester can be intimidating. And I was so impressed by the work that the students were putting out and the little clips that I saw on Instagram, in the coverage that I was seeing. And that’s really a moment where, as an educational developer, you take a step back and you’re like, “Wow, this is public evidence of someone who has taken teaching, who has taken coaching… literally taken students out of their element into a brand new experience. And look at them thriving. Look at them doing the thing that, in the classroom maybe was talked about as theoretical. Look at them applying it.” And so I’ve been just really proud to watch Christian’s evolution in terms of the way that he coaches his students and teaches them too.

Rebecca: I’m curious, at what level, both in faculty developer working with a faculty member and also a faculty member working with a student, how much work there is, maybe, to overcome impostor phenomenon. So moving into a new space, a new discipline, even if the subject matter is familiar, how that can kind of play into [LAUGHTER] like either desperately wanting feedback or also some fear, and how students can be the same, maybe in a class with someone famous [LAUGHTER] might be really intimidating, and how to kind of work through some of those kinds of challenges students and faculty face?

Constanza: Yeah, I think first, to go back to what I said earlier, you have to develop a connection with the faculty member that you’re working with as well. In my experience, that is the only way that you can be successful in terms of educational development, because you can give a ton of advice, but if the faculty member doesn’t know that you mean what you say and that you care, and if they don’t know who you are as a human, it doesn’t matter. And so folks might come in and they might be skeptical of you. They might be skeptical of the theories or the teaching center or the work, and then you have to demonstrate to them in a way that isn’t condescending, that’s inviting, “here’s my subject matter expertise.” We forget sometimes that educational developers have that too. We have a whole lot of subject matter expertise, and my colleague, Michelle Munoz in our teaching center is always talking about that, which I love. It’s a good reminder for me too. So before we get into any of that, first we have to sort of human to human talk, and then we can get into coaching. And then we can say, “All right, what’s your plan? Let’s talk about it.” And if it doesn’t go according to plan, I love reminding faculty, the only person who had the playbook was you. So, if you didn’t cover all five things that you wanted to cover, the only person to know that necessarily is you. But also, that is what we need to remind faculty. And also it can be a positive thing. Maybe students got so fascinated about a particular area that you were talking about, you had all of this conversation that time flew by and you didn’t cover everything. Faculty in today’s world are so worried, at least in the work that I do, about covering all of the material. We had a huge snowstorm, and then a blizzard in Rhode Island. And so we had multiple days this semester that either school was canceled or we went remote. And so there was a lot of nervous energy there about, “oh no, I had planned for X many course sessions. The classic snow day happened, and now I have to figure out how to compensate.” And so working with faculty on saying, like, “Hey, it isn’t about covering all the content necessarily. It’s the quality.” And let’s rethink and reframe what that looks like, not just for this week, but for the semester. Because, again, the semester long playbook is yours, and you are the subject matter expert. You determine what students really, really need to know in order to have meaning come out of this class, let’s work together on it. So that’s how I think I would respond to that question.

Christian: Listen, from a teaching standpoint, for me, is: “absolutely what am I doing here? I don’t belong. I don’t know anybody all that stuff. I don’t have a master’s degree, but I know I know what I’m talking about because I’m an expert in my field. I just don’t have a degree for it.” Nobody has been like, “Here’s a trophy. I don’t have a Marconi. I have 20 years in the business,” but, yeah, to me, that’s a Costanza thing. It’s almost like, you are good enough, you are smart enough. You know, it’s one of those things. [LAUGHTER] I’m like, “Yeah, let’s go. There’s no brick wall to run through, there’s just a door, so I have to consume my energy.” So that was real. I’m not gonna lie. Admitting that is hard to do because, like, I just didn’t really feel like I belonged at first, and it took some time and some coaching to feel comfortable in my own skin, for a bunch of like, 19 to 20 year olds.

Rebecca: They’re tough crowd.

Christian: They are a tough crowd. I look at them sometimes and I’m like, they don’t give a crap what I’m saying right now. And I leave there depressed, and I feel like I didn’t do a good job. That’s the worst feeling, to be honest with you, is leaving the classroom going, “Oh man, that sucked. I could have done so much better than that.” But I will say this, I know I’m kind of changing the direction, but even when that happens, I’ll have some students that’ll come up to me, and I swear up and down, this kid was not paying attention, could care less, was not engaged at all. When those guys come up to me, or those girls come up to me and they say, “This is the best class I’ve ever had.” I’m like, “Really? You didn’t say one word.” [LAUGHTER] You didn’t say anything. You acted like I had a big hole in my head. And that, to me, is very rewarding.

Constanza: Yeah, and I think to go back to the point about impostor syndrome, we all feel it. So sharing it… I started teaching in the college space when I was 23 and so like Christian, I tell faculty this, like Christian, I was like, “No, I’m supposed to be on the other side of the desk, I’m just supposed to be learning. I’m not supposed to be teaching. And the first day I taught, the technology didn’t work. I couldn’t get my roster. It was, in all senses, a disaster. And I remember going home and called my dad, and I was like, “Dad, I don’t know how you do this teaching thing. You have to get up in front of people, and they’re staring at you, and everyone depends on you,” and that’s a lot like you said, Rebecca, it’s a tough crowd, and I think too, we’re navigating again like a rupture in higher education, like I mentioned earlier, that Jessica Riddell talks about. And so it’s showing faculty different skills and strategies to reconnect with their audiences in different ways, and they’re learning how to do that. And beginner learning experiences when you’re doing something in a different way can be daunting. And so it’s everything that Christian said. It’s connecting on stories of, okay, well, this didn’t go the way that I expected in the classroom, knowing you’re not alone. I mean, if we could tell tales from the teaching center, which we can talk about things in broad terms, but we’re a non-evaluative, confidential space, but if we had tales from the teaching center, I think a lot of people would say, “Oh, I didn’t realize that so many people were going through the same thing that I was going through. And that’s what we hear on a daily basis in the teaching center. So when folks come to me and say, “I didn’t feel great in that class,” or “the students seem really tired this week,” I can be like, “yeah, there’s a lot going on this week, from what we’ve heard,” and I can reaffirm that for them, but I can also talk to them about my silly moments too, and I’ll also say what I love. My sister is a daycare teacher, and she talks, and she’s like, sometimes things don’t go according to plan in daycare and I’m like, “What do you do?” Like, talk to me about what that looks like, because I only know how to work with adults. I don’t know how to work with toddlers. And she’s like, sometimes we just have to redirect and shake the sillies out. And she, quite literally, will have the students just like, shake it out. And I feel like we need to just shake it out in higher education too.

Christian: I’m doing that. [LAUGHTER]I’m so doing that.

Constanza: Isn’t that adorable. They shake the sillies… [LAUGHTER]

Christian: I bet you, they can probably laugh about it. It probably completely brings them back to their childhood, and it does kind of reset during that time. I’m literally going to do that.

Constanza: I love that, and I will say too, when students get up to present in front of the class, I think that’s probably when they have the most empathy for us, because they realize, “oh, I have to be the focus of attention, and I have to be the content expert right now, and I also need to be not robotic, but engaging.” And those moments, I think, can be helpful in reestablishing connection, not that I think you should just assign students a presentation for no reason. I think that would be very anxiety inducing [LAUGHTER] for most students today. But I think talking about how it might be really daunting for us to be up in front of the class, or letting students know, like, “Hey, I didn’t sleep really well last night. So if I say something and it doesn’t fully make sense, please ask a question,” or just reminding students that we get paid to answer questions, I love saying to faculty, “They actually pay me to answer your questions,” because they’ll be like, “I don’t want to bother you. I know you’re so busy, you’ve got so much going on, I don’t want to take up all your time,” unless you’re Christian. He just said he loves to hijack my time, but like, I get paid to answer questions, come ask questions. We love that in the teaching center, and I know that faculty love it too, because to Christian’s point when someone comes up and asks a question or says, “Wow, that was a really cool lesson.” Oh my gosh, like my heart swells. And I wrote a piece for Inside Higher Ed a while back about keeping a jar of those types of comments, because teaching evaluations, especially, we hold on to that one comment that is slightly negative or totally negative, and we don’t see all the other comments that are like, “this was really eye opening and inspirational,” and “this instructor really cared.” No, we just focus on that one. I think we need to talk about our wins. And if I may, one other thing that I’ll say, I had my husband do this just yesterday, so it’s not just in the educational development space. He works in property management, and he had a woman come in yesterday and her internet was disconnected, and he was like, “I will come stop by during lunch and I’ll help you out.” And she wrote him back and she said, “You made me feel connected to the world again by helping me out.” And I was like, “Michael, you better frame this. I’m not kidding. Like this is the best piece of feedback that you’ve gotten,” because usually folks come to him and they’re like, “I’ve got a problem in my living space,” and it’s really stressful. And he did. He did because he knows I talk about it all the time. I’m like, celebrate your wins, put them as a reminder, so when you have a bad day, you can go back and look at it and be like, “Oh, okay, this is why I matter. This is why I’m here.” We all need that.

John: I’m going to put in a plug for another podcast that came out in the middle of March, about a month or so ago on impostor phenomenon by Sara Kien. We had a really good discussion of that, so I’d encourage people to go back and listen to that if they’d like to learn more about it. In earlier conversations, you both mentioned how surprised you were about the strong similarities between the ways in which skills are developed in sports and the way in which skills are developed in the classroom. How has the experience of sports perhaps informed the way in which you work with students to develop their skills?

Christian: So I would say I have 14 classes with them total in a semester, it’s a lecture class, and there’s not a chance in hell, in 14 classes, I will have them camera ready at a high level to be ready to perform. So what I do is, to develop those skills, we practice it, every day when we get in, we practice certain skills and we practice them again. And part of that would be my game plan. For a game every Monday, when I would come into the facility, my coach would hand me a game plan. Here’s your game plan. Here’s what we’re going to do. Before we even practice, we would do the basic stuff, chopsticks, you know what I mean? Like just to warm up. And the funny thing is, what I’m realizing now is like, I keep telling them, “You guys don’t even understand what I’m doing right now. You’ll understand it in about two months,” because I make them do it over and over and over and over and over again. I said it’ll make sense in the end, and that’s kind of the way I look at it. I think specifically for broadcasting, there needs to be repetition. There needs to be a massive amount of repetition. And there’s a technical side to broadcasting. There’s a physical side to broadcasting, and there’s an emotional side. The first two, I can teach that all day long, easy, like we’ll hammer it home. The emotional side is the more difficult avenue that I’ve seen, getting them comfortable in their own skin. So to that, how do I develop that skill, which is the hardest one to develop, especially for someone who’s not comfortable being in front of people, who’s not comfortable speaking? I’ve created certain… I’ll just call them competitions, either solo or as a group… I’ll divide them into left side versus right side, and constantly putting them in those situations that make sense when they do their final, and then when their final comes around, listen and I tell them, “You’ve done this. We’ve done that. We’ve done this again. We did it over and over again. You guys are ready. The skills are there. The information is there. Now let’s put it into practice.” Constanza was actually… and I hijacked her for one of my classes, for one of the presentations, because I created our own version of Shark Tank, and she was one of the judges. And she was supposed to be real critical and challenge them. I want them to be challenged. And there was two other professors that helped out. So that’s what I would say, developing those skill sets. As far as the stuff that I teach is just constantly, constantly repping it. It has to be wrapped, and it has to be rep in the sports world, with different situations, different scenarios, different games, different endings, different circumstances, tough. “Hey, can I really say this?” “Well, no, but say it this way,” making them a goal again, but then at the same time, making sure that that person knows, because we’re talking about insecurities now, people judging me, making fun of me, like even though they’re probably not, that everybody else in the class needs to know. This is a workshop. This is a dojo, like we’re practicing here. This is not the final event. This is not our Olympic 100 meter relay. Like, this is the dojo. We’re in the dojo now, and this is where you’re allowed to make mistakes. So that’s kind of the approach that I take.

Constanza: Yeah, I think similarly, when I teach Spanish language classes, I say, “look, first, in order to learn, you have to be here, right?” And I explained to my students why it matters, and I get to know them on a personal level, so that if someone isn’t here, you’ll hear my students say, “Yeah, I had to take a picture of an empty chair and text it to my friend Bobby, because they weren’t in class today,” because I’ll say “We missed you. You’re not here.” Like, “hope you’re doing okay. Check in.” I like to let them know. First and foremost, I notice if they’re not there. Second, this goes along with faculty too. Like, if I haven’t seen one of my faculty in a while, I’ll email them and say, “Oh my goodness, we haven’t connected. How are you? What’s going on? What are you teaching this week?” Because I want them to know I’m thinking about them, even if we don’t cross paths in the hallway. In educational development, similarly, if we’re not practicing our teaching skills or staying informed about what different and new pedagogies are, or different approaches, then it becomes really hard to pivot if we need to. And gosh, if COVID taught us anything, it’s that we need to be ready to pivot if something happens. And the blizzard showed us that as well, we suddenly went for a couple of days to remote learning. So we need to know how to be adaptable in a way that our students are able to absorb it. We need to be able to do that for educational development too. So we’ll do things in the teaching center like have one-on-one consults, and we’ll ask for follow ups from faculty if they want to. We hope that they do. And we’ll also not just do one off workshops, but we’ll do a workshop series, because I think you all can relate to the idea that sometimes you go to a workshop, you have tons of great ideas, but there isn’t follow up. And so that repetition that Christian’s talking about, we have a series of events, like a book group or a four-series workshop. Then folks have time to reflect upon what they’ve learned, think about implementation, and come back with questions, checking in with folks to say, “how was the pace of this session,” or “we talked about this approach you were going to take in the classroom, how did it go?” And actually showing that we care as educational developers in a way that is coaching, but also just again, genuine, is so important as well, because sometimes faculty might have tried something and it didn’t go the way that they planned, and they might be embarrassed or shy to come and talk to us and say “this didn’t work out.” So normalizing that as part of the process, and then to feedback like we talked about earlier, letting folks know, “Hey, you’re not the only one who’s experiencing disengagement. This week, we’ve seen an uptick in that” or “Yeah, like there does seem to be a lot of absences the day before spring break. It’s not just your class,” letting them know that it might feel personal, right? Because you’re saying, “oh my gosh, why did three students not show up to my class? I had a really great topic prepared.” “It’s not just you. There’s a trend that we’re seeing here.” I think that is really helpful.

John: One of the things you mentioned a couple of times was the importance of letting faculty know that they’re not alone. And as you said, reading groups or a series of workshops where faculty get to work together repeatedly, allows those things to naturally come out, and it’s so reassuring for faculty when they feel that they’re not the only ones experiencing those challenges.

Constanza: Yeah, and I think that is one of the beautiful things that we do in the teaching center that isn’t necessarily labeled as a service that we offer, but maybe it should be, and maybe that’s a way that we need to reframe the types of consults that we do. Maybe it’s a belonging consult, but everyone is different, right? So for me, I’m just like, “Oh, I’m meeting with Christian today, and we’ll see what we talk about.” And I genuinely get to know him as a human. I get to know what he teaches about. I get to say, “Huh, I have no idea about this. Can you teach me?” But yeah, I do think that one of the unspoken and unwritten rules in educational development is helping faculty engage with their students but also find their niche in the campus and sort of connecting the dots between what’s available for them and what can help enhance their teaching. So when we talk about coaching on the field and we talk about performance, we want athletes to be better, to feel more motivated, to have that drive and energy. We want the same thing for our instructors, too, but we also want them to know that not every single day goes perfectly. Just because we’re subject matter experts doesn’t mean that we have all the answers. And I think when we talk about that feeling of being alone on campus, that also means, if a student is going through something, and you’re a faculty member and you care about… I tell my faculty all the time, we have a lot of student-facing resources on campus. That is when you refer, like you’ve got something going on with a student and they need support that is outside of the scope of being an instructor in the room. That’s why we have care report, so that you can get that student the support that they need. And for faculty, we’re often the only faculty facing office on campus. So letting faculty know, “Oh, by the way, you’ve got somebody here. You’ve got a team here that is here just for you, so that if you’re navigating, let’s say, classroom management, we’re here to consult with you, to talk about what are some ways that you can navigate this. What are some approaches that you can take that are different than perhaps the ones that you’ve been taking?” So yeah, it’s really important not to feel alone, especially in teaching. It’s such a relational field.

Rebecca: One thing that I heard come out in the conversation today is maybe a need for this practice and repetition for fluency, but with variety. And I think repetition kind of implies, by its nature, that it could get boring really quick. So how do you, as a coach, bring in that variety so that it stays engaging?

Christian: Well, I think you just said it. Sports is all about repetition, shooting the same free throw 100 times, blocking the same way over and believe me, it gets boring, and you’re hoping that your coach can get creative. So we’ll just change the drill, and you feel like it’s new, but it’s technically the same thing. It just looks different, but the coach is still getting the same outcome that he wants, but now he’s got you reengaged, and you’re not bitching and complaining about being in the same old thing in week 10. I think that’s the same thing for teaching. It is, how could I create the same lesson plan or try to get the same thing across and they think that it’s actually different? And I try to do that as much as possible. Either I change the topic, I change the theme of it, because, you know, I get bored too. [LAUGHTER] I get bored. So, like, Man, [snap fingers] [LAUGHTER] I gotta snap out of this. Let’s kind of change where everybody sits. I don’t know, like, just do something different. That’s about as simple as I can get with that. Like, I think it’s the repetition is key, and you can’t get rid of it. You can’t ignore it. But I do think creating a different lesson plan that still has the same teeth as how it was originally set up to be, I think is important also.

Constanza: Yeah, and I think the same type of coaching practice happens in educational development too. Number one, not every single strategy or approach or recommendation, I make… Christian will laugh when I say this, but in our first weeks of mentorship, I was like, “Look, you don’t have to listen to me.” And he’s like, “But Constanza, I’m here. I want to listen to you.” And he’d always say that over and over again. And I was like, “Well, no Christian. What I mean by that is, I’m going to give you a variety of options. You choose what feels right for you, for your teaching style, for your teaching approach.” So we have to offer variety, because folks may or may not be comfortable with one solution that we give. We might need to give them a variety so that they say, “Oh, this one feels like it fits for me or for my context,” because, again, as I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, I often am not very familiar with the subject matter that the faculty member is coming in with. So I’m there to talk about the teaching strategies. Number two, there are so many books on educational development, they keep coming out. Why? Because our students and our faculty are changing in terms of their expectations, what they need. So we need to adapt, and there will always be books on educational development, because we’re still learning more about how we learn, and again, the people who are in front of us change. So I think, on that note, too, we need to constantly be offering variety. If I only offered the same three workshops every single year, I would not have attendance, because faculty will say, “Well, I’ve seen that. That’s old. Teach me something new.” So if we want to engage faculty, then we need to give them new approaches. Or if we’re talking about student engagement, which is something that we’ve always been talking about, we need to talk about different ways that they can approach that. So to Christian’s point, yes, it’s the same topic, but it’s a different way of explaining it, or it’s a different idea, or it’s having faculty perhaps present themselves and say, “This has really worked well for me in the classroom. Let me show you how I do it.” We have one instructor who, he came in last summer, and he said, “Constanza, I’m going to upend my class, and I want to talk to you about it.” And I said, “All right, tell me more.” And so he decided to use flipped learning for all of his classes. He started with one, and now this semester, he’s using it for all of them in a really different and unique way. And then he delivered a presentation about it a few weeks ago to talk about the implications of that in the age of AI, which is not how we would have talked about flipped learning even five years ago. So we all need a refresh on our teaching. And the other thing I’ll add to what Christian said is, if you don’t, it gets boring for you too. I know even teaching three sections of the same course back to back, by the third section, I’m like, “Okay, did I say this in this section, or did I say it in the section before?” We need to spice it up for ourselves so that we can have the passion to then share with our students. It’s so important.

John: We always end with the question: “what’s next?”

Christian: Is world domination too aggressive? [LAUGHTER]

John: It seems to be really popular right now.

Christian: Oh, that’s true. [LAUGHTER] True. World domination in the teaching profession, that is what’s next for us. I’m going to speak for Constanza as well, because we feel like we have a really good message, and I think we have a real unique way of sharing and explaining that message. And so what’s next for us, from a partnership, is trying to find unique and creative ways to share what we have learned. And that’s the easiest way I could express it. Constanza, you do the academic version and clean it up for me.

Constanza: I think just to add to what Christian has said, I really, really enjoy working with Christian. It’s not every single day that you get to go home and say, “Yeah, today I work with an NFL two time Super Bowl champion,” and remember, I know nothing about football. So it’s really cool how we came from such different spaces, and yet found so many parallels in the work that we do. I really appreciate the openness that Christian has. It takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable in teaching. We know this, and to talk so openly about “Here’s what I’ve learned in my last year or so of teaching.” And I’m really excited, because I think, to Christian’s point, we’ll be able to help a lot of other instructors just by talking about the work that we’re doing. So I’m really excited that Christian has agreed to work with me in this way, and we’re just so grateful for being able to be here with you both today to talk a little bit about what we’re doing.

John: Well, thank you. It’s been great talking to both of you, and to meet you, Christian and to talk to you again, Constanza, and the message that you have about working together to improve teaching is one, as the director of a teaching center, I’d like to see a whole lot more of because we can all learn from each other and sharing our ideas in a world in which things are evolving so rapidly in higher ed, can be really helpful rather than trying to deal with everything alone.

Rebecca: Finding ways to reframe, using coaching and other frames can be really helpful to spice things up and provide that variety, even if the underlying techniques and things are really the same.

Christian: This last thing, and we’ll cap it, when I talk to coaches, coaches in the NFL and college, when I talk to them about their philosophy on coaching, they all end up saying, you know, we’re just teachers. They say the same thing that we’re saying I’m saying, “Oh…” they go, “No, we’re just teachers,” and they just use a different word for it.

Rebecca: Well, thank you so much for joining us, and we look forward to sharing this with our audience,

Christian: Yeah, can’t wait to hear it. Appreciate you guys having us on.

Constanza: Thank you both.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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440. Program-Level AI Responses

When generative AI platforms first appeared on the scene, faculty had to address these challenges alone. In this episode, Kathleen Landy joins us to discuss how program-level collaboration can help educators adapt more rapidly and effectively.

Kathleen is the Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs at Genesee Community College. Prior to this, Kathleen has served in leadership roles at teaching centers at Cornell University, Queensborough Community College, and Mercy College. She has taught in multiple modalities and also has extensive K-12 teaching experience. Kathleen also served on the POD Network Core Committee from 2022 through 2025, and currently serves as the Co-Chair of the SUNY Council on Assessment.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: When generative AI platforms first appeared on the scene, faculty had to address these challenges alone. In this episode, we discuss how program-level collaboration can help educators adapt more rapidly and effectively.

[MUSIC]

John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Our guest today is Kathleen Landy. She is the Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs at Genesee Community College. Prior to this, Kathleen has served in leadership roles at teaching centers at Cornell University, Queensborough Community College, and Mercy College. She has taught in multiple modalities and also has extensive K-12 teaching experience. Kathleen also served on the POD Network Core Committee from 2022 through 2025, and currently serves as the Co-Chair of the SUNY Council on Assessment. Welcome Kathleen!

Kathleen: Thank you so much! I am delighted to be joining you today.

Rebecca: Today’s teas are… Kathleen, are you drinking tea with us today?

Kathleen: I certainly am. I’ve got a nice mug here from the Ithaca Coffee Company, and it is filled with Irish Breakfast tea because it’s March and it’s approaching St Patrick’s Day. So why not lead with that?

Rebecca: I think you’re on theme. You’re good.

Kathleen: I’m trying. Yeah, thank you.

Rebecca: How about you, John?

John: And I forgot that we’re approaching St Patrick’s Day, so I have English breakfast tea, which might not go as well with Ireland in the same way.

Rebecca: Immediate conflict, [LAUGHTER] there’s immediate conflict.

Kathleen: I didn’t expect this so soon in the podcast, [LAUGHTER] the acrimony. Oh my.

Rebecca:I have a blue sapphire again, John, but it’s in my new favorite mug that I got while I was in Switzerland.

John: Excellent. We’ve invited you here today to discuss your February 28th 2024 article in Inside Higher Ed that addressed institutional responses to generative AI platforms. We recently ran across the article and thought these arguments were just as appropriate today as they were two years ago when you wrote this. At that time, ChatGPT had only been available for a relatively short time, and you argued that institutional responses were generally reactive rather than proactive. Are higher ed institutions still mostly reacting to changes determined by AI providers?

Kathleen: I’d say yes and no. And I think a really important disclaimer here is that anything I say from this point on is from the perspective of a dedicated practitioner, and I’m not conducting empirical study and formal study of many institutions higher ed, right? So this is certainly based on conversations with peers and my experience and my day-to-day goings on. And so I think we are still a bit reactive and I think that also varies greatly by institution and within institutions, by school and by program. So I think it really depends. I think we’re all over the road, to be honest. That said, I think, initially, folks were dealing with this reaction, or this reactive response, in isolation and kind of left on their own to explore or to experiment, and I think that probably remains true, but perhaps more at a broader organizational scale. So I think individual departments and programs are experimenting and exploring, and so I think there’s stronger or weaker degrees of coordination of those efforts across institutions. So yes and no, I know that that’s a pretty broad answer, but I think it varies.

John: And I think that applies to most things involving AI in higher education these days.

Kathleen: That’s fair. Yes, I agree.

Rebecca: I feel like faculty really experienced a lot of transition and having to respond to a lot of different things in the last five years, which is a little tiring. This included things like the shift to remote instruction in 2020, the growth of for-profit companies like Chegg, whose business model basically encourages [LAUGHTER] academic integrity violations, and this proliferation of AI platforms beginning in late 2022, and also the upcoming deadline for digital accessibility requirements. So there’s lots of different kinds of things that faculty are having to shift and rethink around. And faculty in the SUNY system have also faced a transition in their learning management system on top of everything else during this time period. Is it really reasonable to place so much burden of addressing these systemic issues in the hands of faculty? I guess the bigger question is, what role do faculty play, and then what role do institutions and systems play?

Kathleen: It’s a great question. I think it’s a loaded question, and I’m all right with that. I think it’s a fair question. I think, no, it’s not reasonable to put all of that expectation on faculty. And I think the second part of that is, I hope it’s not the case that it is the expectation. So no circle in which I chat, or operate, or work to serve the mission of Genesee, or any place where I’ve been, it’s never been the assumption that faculty need to figure that out, they need to figure that out on their own. So, because it’s such a critical responsibility, because it’s such a mission-critical responsibility, because faculty play this critical role as stewards of teaching and learning at any institution, I think they deserve the support. So if I’m doing my job decently as a provost, I’m trying to coordinate that support. I’m trying to do what I can to encourage a couple of different things. So the day-to-day work that I do as a provost, hopefully, is mindful of three things, assessment, professional development, and, frankly, wellness. If faculty are the stewards of the teaching and learning experience on campus, I work in service of the faculty, so I’m constantly trying to think about the assessment of it all. What do we need to learn? What do the faculty need to be effective in their roles? What do the faculty need? What development do they need? What do they want to learn in order to be effective in their role? And then, of course, the wellness piece, and that’s trying to keep tabs on everything from workload to culture and departmental environments and institutional priorities and the extent to which we’re pursuing them with the spirit of shared governance and collaboration in all the things. So no, it’s not reasonable to put everything on the faculty, and if senior admin are doing our jobs correctly, we’re supporting them in that endeavor and trying to work with folks to figure out what we need to accomplish next and how we can collaboratively do that.

Rebecca: One of the things that you’re hinting at is a little bit of prioritization. When there’s a lot of things going on, everything can seem like it’s in its own bucket, and it’s equally as important, but it’s hard to put attention on everything equally. So it seems like there needs to be some sort of coordination or integration of these different kinds of initiatives: accessibility, AI, and the list goes on.

Kathleen: Yes, I think that’s where organizational structure and communication and collaboration between those and among those structures is so important. And so that gets into organizational health, and how effectively are we keeping each other informed about the things that we’re doing and the priorities that we’re setting? If we’re working in a siloed, isolating environment, it’s so counterproductive, of course, so I think the sense of institutional priority that everyone’s working with is paramount. Right behind it is the health of the working culture, the working environment. So I agree there’s an emphasis on priority there. That’s important.

John: Now you mentioned two terms there that I was just thinking about in your earlier comments. One is culture, and the other is silos. Is part of the issue, where we don’t see as much decisions made at the department or program level, the fact that we do have a culture in higher ed of faculty working in their own silos, working independently, and not agreeing on as many approaches to teaching and learning. From what I’ve seen here, most faculty are addressing the challenges of AI entirely on their own, without even discussing it that much at the departmental or the program level, in part because they’re used to developing their own courses without sharing a lot of information with others. The whole notion of academic freedom and independence is a bit of a culture in higher ed that may actually serve as a barrier to cooperative work on this topic.

Kathleen: I think that’s an incredibly sympathetic question. There is a culture of knowing things and being the authority, and I think it’s built into the fabric and the culture of higher ed in general, and because instructors, because faculty members, are masters of their discipline, they’re experts in the field, it is so wildly disconfirming to not understand the task at hand, which is, “how do I incorporate AI into my disciplinary knowledge, my instructional practice, my assessment practice, my collegial conversations with colleagues, my academic discourse with students, with colleagues, with the field?” I don’t want to get too technical, but it’s super weird. It’s hard sometimes to admit that we don’t know something. And I think, without generalizing, that’s really hard for academics. You don’t want to show that card and say, “I’m not sure how to handle this. I’m not sure what this is all about. I’m totally fearful of this thing.” In the case of faculty, it’s on multiple levels: “Is a chat bot going to do my job in five years?” It might be so disconfirming in terms of the value placed on discipline specific knowledge. “I used to be revered for my encyclopedic knowledge of x, and now it’s a 30 second prompt. So what does that mean for me?” So it’s weird. On an individual level, it can be threatening. On a professional, personal level, I would even say on a deeply personal level, in terms of how we define ourselves and ourselves of identity… I don’t mean to get too metaphysical or philosophical on this… but I think it’s really hard to make sense of this. And I think when things were first unfolding, and there were multiple platforms, ChatGPT comes immediately to mind, of course, but select platforms were rising in such prominence in 2022, 2023, folks were in isolation, which was, in fact, the impetus for this opinion piece to say, “I don’t think we have to figure this out on our own. This is a departmental endeavor. Let’s talk about the things, let’s model learning for our students and each other. Let’s figure it out together.” So yeah, I do think broadly the culture of academia can be a little isolating and individualistic, but in my lived experience, the culture of teaching is collaborative. And “hey, I’ve got a student with this challenge, or I’ve got this module or unit or facet of my course that’s a little clunky or not flowing well, or the engagement isn’t there. What do you think?” In my lived experience as a teacher, it’s always been a communicative, collaborative endeavor, where I try to get better and better and better, because I think the best teachers are lifelong learners. So there’s a humility in that that hopefully combats the resistance that’s built into the fabric of academia that sometimes takes the form of resistance to admitting that we don’t know something.

Rebecca: How do we start to move in the direction of this more proactive, scaled, systemic response to AI platforms? We’ve kind of danced around the idea that there’s these silos, not everyone’s collaborating, there is the opportunity to collaborate, teaching can be really collaborative. What needs to happen to kind of nudge it to this more proactive direction so that we can have a more systemic cultural change?

Kathleen: Well, I think the first part of your question, if I heard it correctly, is, what’s prompting this evolution, if you will, or this progress? Frankly, I think it’s because the challenge or the problem isn’t going away, it’s here. It isn’t going away, and so we kind of can’t ignore this anymore as a sector, so as more and more institutions and individuals notice this and are kind of getting our bearings in the wake of this seismic disruption, I see lots more activity within and across institutions. And I think the second part of that, if I heard it correctly, is, how do we build upon that? Is that accurate?

Rebecca: Yeah or how do we launch it forward a little faster, [LAUGHTER] or really leverage the opportunity to address it in a more systemic way?

Kathleen: I think part of it involves our metacognitive approach to this challenge and our metacognitive recognition that there’s different facets to our institutional and individual responses. So I definitely see some curricular responses, and I think this varies greatly by department. For some disciplines, it makes so much more sense to have AI-specific program level learning outcomes. It just made sense, because AI is impacting their fields, their programs in such obvious ways. That’s not true for every discipline, obviously. So there is reluctance to touch the curriculum or to revise or modify or even review the curriculum in other disciplines, and that’s okay. In other pockets of higher ed, it’s more structural. I’m seeing so many more structures, organizational structures, that are responding to this moment, to these changes. And sometimes it might take the form of an ad hoc committee, it might take the form of a Senate subcommittee, it might take a form of a… you name it. So I think there’s structural responses. Folks are starting to self organize, and I think that’s good. And I think if we’re mindful of that, and in turn, try to be planful about that and thoughtful about the structures we create in our own institutions, that’s another facet. Yet another facet involves some of the policy-related work that’s going on. Lots of institutions are drafting policies and doing so, quite rightly, collaboratively, trying to incorporate faculty perspective and working through channels of shared governance. Those are good things, I’d say, finally, another facet is the cultural piece. I see folks sharing things so much more often. Just this morning, a colleague shared an article with me from e-campus News, and it’s entitled, “The AI-resistant classroom is a myth: Designing assessments that assume AI is present,” and while I don’t know that that’s something I would offer like “this is the blueprint,” it’s thought provoking, and it’s beautiful fodder for conversation with fellow administrators and faculty and the assessment committee with whom I work closely. There’s so much out there, and I feel like folks are sharing so much more. So, I think a notable shift, and something that we can intentionally encourage, is the shift in the tenor of the conversations that we’re having with each other and that we’re prompting with colleagues, that it’s shifting so much more away from, “Oh my goodness, how we’re going to handle this? This is so worrisome, and this is something to fear” to “These are opportunities and what can we achieve? What do we need to achieve what do we want?” So, that might have been a long-winded answer, but I think it’s so multifaceted. I think taking stock of how we’re responding to this moment is an important part of continuing to respond to this moment in a productive way.

John: I may have overstated the degree to which faculty are working in silos earlier, because I know on our campus, we do have a lot of those discussions, but the discussions tend to be among those who are exploring AI as one group, and then we also have a lot of discussions among those people who just don’t want to have anything to do with AI as a different group, and they don’t always talk to each other as much as might be productive. Even within departments, I know of one department where one of our major AI advocates on campus also contains someone who is one of the most opposed to any student use of AI. And so that presents a little bit of a challenge in building some of these programmatic approaches. Do you have any suggestions on how we can bring these people together in a productive way… to at least come up with some shared principles or objectives?

Kathleen: I do, yeah. I think recognizing that there’s, as you just described, there’s such a range of responses to this. Some are logical, some are emotional, some are deeply discipline driven by discipline-specific thinking. But there is variability, and we know that. So I think the ways to bring people together… this is not an earth shattering statement, but… need to be really thoughtful. It can’t be one and done. It’s not an hour with cookies, although I do like a good cookie, let’s not have that come across the wrong way. But I think it’s frequency of meetings or just opportunities for discussion. I think it’s the structure. I think it’s the clear communication about the purpose of getting folks together. There’s a few different pieces to that. If there’s a group of folks who were super recalcitrant, they’re super resistant, I think there’s a number of different strategies to employ there, and one is modeling interesting or effective use of some of these platforms. I think it’s creating low-stakes experiences with platforms to facilitate greater exposure and to generate intellectual curiosity, to take the sting out of that isolating expectation that folks experiment on their own. I think communicating the intent, as I mentioned before, and I think most importantly, grounding these conversations and these experiences in the mission of your institution. There may be such variability among folks on a campus with regard to their perceived value of generative AI, but what they all have in common should be the mission. And so if I can frame conversations about, “Hey, what does this platform or this use or this potential use for AI have to do with your program? Have to do with the students’ experience?” That’s, I think, what connects us all, and that’s what I think should be the impetus for these conversations. What is best for the students, what is best for our viability as a program, to ensure that we’re still relevant, that we’re still accomplishing for students what we say we will. And I think that’s a good starting point. I think framing those experiences where you’re hoping to achieve consensus, I think framing them is really important. It’s a good start.

John: One of the things we did last year was we had 24 faculty participate in a SUNY IITG-funded initiative where they spend a little over a semester developing some activities that they could embed in the classes and experiment with, but the first day of that, we had people together all day, and it was really one of the most productive sessions I’ve seen, because at the start we saw this wide polarization, but then the people who were really opposed to AI got to see how it might be productive for them, and they got to see some examples from others of how it might be helpful for students who might be left behind without some additional support. And at the other extreme, the people who were really enthusiastic got to hear some of the concerns of the other people and see how it could be used in ways that are detrimental. And I think everyone left there with a much more balanced perspective at the end of that day. And then we met regularly throughout the semester, and it was really nice to see people coming together there. The challenge is getting them all in the room in the first place.

Kathleen: So that’s a great example and thank you for sharing that, and it prompts me to share this example: For that list that I just offered, in terms of trying to demonstrate effective use of select platforms, and trying to give concrete examples of how this might be beneficial, to try to model that. And so an example that might be worth sharing is that we are up for our middle states reaccreditation. In fact, our site visit is in a couple of weeks, and we’re trying to get the word out, “Read the study! Read the study!” We want folks to engage. It’s a really thoughtful self study. We’re proud of who we are. We’re mission centered. We do good work. We know what we’re working on. We’re humble, we hustle, all the things. However, I know that it’s a tough sell to get an entire campus community to read a 100-page document that is evidence rich, and perhaps to some, not the most dynamic document. It might not be the page turner we hope it is or that we think it is. However, I leveraged a platform to make summary podcasts for each chapter, and I shared these along with the self study, and we shared them broadly with the campus community, and it is truly trying to model this in the spirit of UDL. Here’s multiple means of representation. You can read this and then you can listen to this, and it’s intriguing and it’s entertaining and it’s good and it’s a decent use of a handy application. And I’m hoping that folks will listen to that podcast and think, “Oh, wow! Maybe I could do that in my sociology class. Maybe I can encourage students to create some summaries of some reading assignments, not to totally supplant them, but to supplement and to reinforce learning.” And so that’s one example that your example has prompted me to share. Yeah, I think there’s so much that we can do. Your example also speaks to the idea that it shouldn’t be one and done. It’s not an hour. We need enough time to engage with each other, with these platforms, to make sense of something before we can even speculate on how to best incorporate it into our curriculum, or not.

Rebecca: Part of what I’m hearing both of you say is, it’s important to have someone who’s watching the bigger conversation on campus and can call these meetings to happen. To use the teaching center to have a whole-day workshop, or have administration say, “Hey, we’re going to dedicate this day to having these conversations. We invite you to all come.” Someone has to take that first step to: A) recognize that the different populations exist, and then B) intentionally bring them together.

Kathleen: And I think bring them together in different ways and different modalities, dare say. I mentioned sharing resources before. At GCC, we have a week of professional development days in advance of each semester. And so I knew just by being, you know, a good SUNY citizen, and by being connected with colleagues and peers, I knew that SUNY Finger Lakes Community College has been doing some fabulous work with their AI hub, The FLX AI Hub. And so we welcomed folks from Finger Lakes Community College to our campus to help us and to give some really thoughtful overviews of some ways to integrate AI into the teaching and learning endeavor, or at least to consider what those integrations might look like. And one of the follow-up activities that full disclosure, I have not yet sent invites for, but I bought the books, and that’s something. So the wonderful Dave Ghidiu from Finger Lakes Community College had recommended to us a text that he loves, The Opposite of Cheating by Tricia Galant and David Rettinger. And frankly, I want to have a provost book club. I want to get folks together with no expectation that anyone show up with the answer to all the world’s problems. I want us to come together, read something thoughtful, listen to each other, and engage in that dialog that you described, John, that some folks, they have really valid concerns that everyone needs to hear and we all need to respond to. And others have done trailblazing, innovative work that everyone should hear and we should all try to emulate and so there’s such a discourse, which I think accomplishes a few things. It helps everyone improve our instructional and assessment practice. And I know this might be cheesy, but I’m a cheesy person, it stokes that fire of intellectual curiosity that drives us. We went into these fields, into this endeavor, into academia, because of that curiosity. What a moment to be in academia. Of course, it’s daunting. Of course, it sometimes feels laborious, perhaps, but we’re not alone, and we get to figure things out together and I think that really is a gift.

John: And I want to include a couple of shout outs, one to Dave Ghidiu, who has been on the podcast in the past, and also to the authors of The Opposite of Cheating. We’ll include links to the podcast with both Dave and with the authors of The Opposite of Cheating in the show notes for this episode. And also, we did a reading group on our campus last semester, and we’ve even had a member of your campus participate in the reading group, a member of your math department who was a really active and enthusiastic participant in that reading group in the fall semester of this year. We’ve been running generally one or two reading groups a semester for faculty for the last eight or nine years now, and they’ve been really productive. And we’ve done them in conjunction with other campuses. For about six years, we were doing them with SUNY Plattsburgh when Jessamyn Neuhaus was there. That broke down after she left and moved to Syracuse, although we did read her book after her move to Syracuse. They’ve been really productive ways of bringing people together and sharing their teaching practices and building this sort of community. We just wish we had more people in them.

Kathleen: It’s how things grow, and I think it’s so multifaceted. I mentioned our accreditation process. I’ve partnered with Deborah Ortloff, also at Finger Lakes Community College, to really explore and learn from her ways in which generative AI can help in the accreditation process. There’s so much that we can benefit from, and it’s really eye opening, and I think that initial exposure is really important, and then that low-stakes period of experimentation and just making sense of things with people and not doing that in isolation, great things can happen. And I’m not trying to sound like Pollyanna, I’m not trying to sound like there aren’t some daunting pieces to this, but we have great colleagues to figure things out with. That’s a joy. So why not embrace that?

John: I wish we had access to NotebookLM when we last did our accreditation, so that we could generate those podcasts, because when we did ours a few years earlier, I had to do some podcast recordings with some of the people leading that and then edit them all and post them to provide the same multimodal experience. But if those documents could have just been uploaded and generated and shared, it would have saved me many, many hours of work. But again, having those audio versions is really good, because we know multimodal presentation helps with learning for faculty as well as for students.

Kathleen: That’s right and dare say, it’s fun. It’s intriguing. I was delighted to hear those because I was just in awe that, within minutes, this was generated, and it was entertaining. I have to say it was great.

Rebecca: One of the things that we’ve hinted at but haven’t directly talked about is perhaps the need for policies to be developed related to AI. Some of this might happen at the institutional level, and some maybe at the programmatic level, or course level. Can you talk a little bit about how you see what kinds of policies should be developed at what level? What kinds of things should be in, like an institutional policy, and what might be more at a programmatic level?

Kathleen: So at the institution level, and I hope this doesn’t sound in any way like evasive, or, dare say, even cheeky, but I think a really good institutional policy is to have a course level policy. I think there’s a danger, as we all know, of the potential for institution- level policies to become overly prescriptive and curtail academic freedom. That’s to be avoided, obviously, but I think having clear expectations that departments, programs, individual courses, establish and communicate clear expectations for the students in those courses and programs. I think that’s essential, because not having a policy renders everybody guessing, and then the rules aren’t clear, and then the expectations aren’t clear, and most importantly, the learning isn’t clear, because part of the, and this is a segue to the course level consideration, for course-level considerations, or even assignment level for that matter. Generally, folks will fall into one of three policies, either we allow AI, we allow selective or limited use of AI, or we don’t allow it. Each of those is fine. I think it’s reasonable for a department to get together and discuss, “what is our department-level policy?” From my perspective, it’s perfectly reasonable to say every instructor of every course within this program needs to have a clear policy and communicate the rationale for that policy to students, because if students understand the rationale behind a policy, if they understand the policy, they’re more likely to follow it and to adhere to that policy and to be guided by that policy. So, I think at the institution level, expectations that are specific yet flexible are prudent, with the caveat being that they shouldn’t be overly prescriptive. At the department level, I think clear expectations that provide adequate guidance to faculty with regard to what they need to include in their syllabus or their course descriptions or their assignment directions, it has to be adequately specific yet flexible. Same principle there.

John: One of the challenges that students face is that they may end up with very different requirements, and at least putting it in the syllabus and describing and having a conversation with students is a start. But you also mentioned that, perhaps, whenever faculty give assignments, they should list those things, because students don’t always go back to the syllabus, and it could be confusing when you’re faced with five different policies in five different courses, or even in a course… AI may be allowed for some types of assignments, but not others. And that’s a lot for students to keep track of unless it’s being made explicit at each stage. So should faculty also include whether AI is used, not allowed, or is used in a specific manner, in every assignment where there may be a potential for use?

Kathleen: I don’t see a downside to that. So a lot of things go back to the mission and what’s best for students. If learning is the goal, then everything we can do to facilitate that learning is worth pursuing. So, with sympathy, if a student is taking five different courses with five different course-level AI policies, why wouldn’t we communicate this clearly and frequently to students? I think there are things that departments, or dare say, even institutions, can do. I don’t think we’re quite there yet, but I think there are things that we can do, such as having a template, let’s say, for course-level policies or sample statements, so that there’s a consistency with what students encounter, even if there’s variability in the degree of use that’s permitted across courses. Hopefully, if things look similar, if things are consistent in how they’re communicated and how frequently, I think that helps. I also think it is up to individual instructors to determine what’s best for their course, and I do think it’s a skill set that students need to develop, to literally or metaphorically read the room and to adapt, because that goes for us too, as professionals, as teachers, we have to learn when it’s appropriate to use or not to use or to use in a limited way, AI. So there’s also the metacognitive skill of helping students practice paying attention to the rules as they navigate their programmatic experience, so it’s layered and it’s nuanced. But to answer your question, I think there’s potential for things to get pretty confusing for students who are taking multiple courses with varying policies on AI, but we have to help them keep track of that and reminders help, presenting expectations in multiple places helps. It’s not enough to say it once in class and expect that everyone retain that forever. We have to document it. We have to share it. We have to communicate it multiple ways.

Rebecca: Your description of templates is making me think about Creative Commons licenses and the human readable versions of those licenses, where you can kind of mix and match permissions [LAUGHTER] or levels of what’s allowed or not allowed, and I could imagine some AI policies following a similar format. “You can use AI as long as you provide documentation that you used it,” or like whatever the rule might be, but I could imagine something like that being really useful for students to keep it at that human readable clear way.

Kathleen: And I would never use the word “Mad Lib”, but it’s kind of, you know, “for this course, it is my expectation that generative AI is used to: fill in the blank.And this is why.” I mean, we might want a more sophisticated term than “Mad Lib”, but template works, I think, if students know where to find this information. We’re actually doing this now at Genesee. So I meet routinely with one of our student government association officers, and he and I are collaboratively working on a draft of guidelines for conversations about breaches in academic integrity that involve AI, how to handle it. And so our hope is to, hopefully in the next three weeks,… well let’s say four weeks, hopefully in April… to gather a group of faculty and students so that we can learn from each other and refine these guidelines and socialize… I don’t love that verb… but socialize these guidelines. We’ve been engaging with folks from our Academic Senate Committee on academic integrity, our standards committee, and so we’re collaboratively trying to create a resource that will help folks engage in conversations. What to do if you suspect a student has used AI when they shouldn’t have? What should students ask at the beginning of a class of a faculty member if they’re not sure what the rules are? And so having this resource and the associated conversations that will hopefully be empowering for both faculty and students, that’s part of the cultural piece, it’s part of the resources piece, it’s part of the sharing piece. It’s all these facets of how we can make the student experience more enriching and more in line with what we’re hoping to accomplish. It was a bit of a tangent, but I think the idea of bringing more folks in to consider how to mitigate the confusion that students might experience. That’s a good thing, including the students, especially the students.

Rebecca: One of the biggest challenges associated with generative AI use in the classroom, or with student use of it, is the reliability of online assessments. And really, this is for courses, really in any modality, because we all use online assessments for things. What approaches should faculty and institutions take to ensure that faculty and students are able to reliably assess the progress of student learning?

Kathleen: It’s an excellent question, and it’s one that has prompted so much conversation on my own campus, I know on other campuses. I have a few responses to this. One, what comes to mind immediately is the prominence of tech responses to this challenge. So whether it’s proctoring and anti-cheating tech platforms, I think they have their place. It depends on the day. I have some mixed opinions on the ultimate efficacy and effectiveness of one upping, I think. Sometimes I’ve heard the term “arms race” used, and I don’t love that for a couple of reasons, but I can see how if there’s platform A, platform A-Prime comes out three months later, and then it’s a race sometimes. So I think there could probably be, and likely is its own podcast to address some of the tech platforms and the responses to that, but if I may focus on what also comes to mind… For me, surprisingly, I think there’s a personal approach to mitigating the likelihood of cheating. That comes down to relationships and communication. So I think those are at the heart of my philosophy, philosophy of teaching, philosophy of assessment. Whether there’s a tech intervention or a tech solution or no tech solution. I want students to appreciate why they shouldn’t cheat in my class, and if I’ve done my job well, if I’ve communicated that well, I want students to second guess that decision. I want students to be less willing to cheat because I have already done a good job of communicating why this learning is essential and why they shouldn’t circumvent the learning by cutting a corner or by using an AI-generated form of assistance when they shouldn’t. The other piece of that is the relationship. I want my students, and sometimes, I grant you, this is really tough in a larger lecture, I get it. So class size is a factor here, but I want my students to feel the faith that I have in them. I want them to not want to cheat [LAUGHTER] in my class, and I’m not trying, once again, to sound like Pollyanna or that I’m the eternal optimist here, but I know students cheat. I know there will always be a few who try to cheat, but I want my relationship with the class to be an impediment to that instinct. [LAUGHTER] I want folks to second guess like, “Wow, Kathleen has such faith in me and I don’t want to compromise that.” I want the relationship to be its own disincentive. And I want the communication of, “Hey, this is why I’m asking you not to cheat on this.” Can you cheat? Probably. Sure. But should you? No, of course not, and here’s why. So I think there’s a surprisingly personal part of my own teaching philosophy that informs this part of that answer. I also think there’s a real place for authentic assessment, and of course, modality may play a factor here, but to the extent to which learning is applied, authentic, that can mitigate the likelihood that students would outsource it to an AI platform. The same goes for metacognition and the assessment thereof. If I have an assessment or an assignment that takes a look at process over product, or if I have something that takes a look at students’ own metacognitive reflections on how they did, it calls for more self assessment, calls for more personal reflection. I think that also mitigates. It could be a whole ‘nother podcast to get into. I’m not going to outsource to a platform an articulation of how I feel about how [LAUGHTER] the process went. So I think there’s the communication piece, the assignment design piece, and the potential for a tech solution as well. I think those three things are relevant and connected to my pretty long answer to that question. I think it’s multifaceted.

John: And those are all great solutions. One of the things, though, that many people are increasingly concerned with is the growing availability of agentic platforms that can log into a course management system, check to see what work is due, complete that work and log out without any intervention other than the student giving it the URL, the login ID, and the password. And at the other extreme, there’s also concern that faculty could do the same thing. That these same platforms could allow faculty to set up an agent that would go in, check within the learning management system to see if there’s work to be graded, grade that work, provide notes in the feedback column in addition to a letter grade, and then log out again without any intervention from faculty. And we’re starting to see a little bit of that happening, and that’s an area that the learning management platforms, as well as the AI platforms, should be working on a bit more actively. In the meanwhile, we’ve got a lot of concerns coming up and having discussions with students, working with colleagues, and coming up with the best institutional responses, but sometimes it’s going to have to go a bit further than that, I think, to resolve some of these new challenges, because both sides of this are racing. and I work with AI quite a bit, and every time I go on social media, I get ads for these things that can do all the work for me in my courses, where I just give them some money each month, and it will do everything and guarantee that I got a high grade with an extremely low chance of being caught doing that. So students are faced with a lot of temptation, and to the extent to which we can build relationships, that will help.

Kathleen: Yes, and I think to your point, our committing to staying on top of how things are escalating and how platforms are becoming increasingly sophisticated, or, dare say, elusive when it comes to detection, etc., I think our commitment to staying on top of that is paramount. We have to know what we’re dealing with here in order to even have a hope of designing assignments and learning experiences that can circumvent that. So it’s daunting. I think I would find me tedious if I came on here [LAUGHTER] and I thought I had all the answers. I do not, but I do know that groups of folks getting together who are committed and passionate and knowledgeable and curious, I think us figuring it out together, we have a far greater likelihood of achieving what we’re hoping to, but it is daunting, it is. I would never suggest otherwise. For me, the relationship piece is huge, and the way I can structure reminders about what’s expected, whether it’s reiterating PLOs up to and including ethics. There’s a lot of talk about ethics and our shared responsibility for instilling a deep sense of professional ethics, research, methodological ethics, personal ethics, personal integrity. Where does that live in our curriculum? Which goes back to the original thought here that we have to take a look at the ways in which AI is impacting our fields, our teaching, our assessment, and do what we can to be proactive and review, refine, revise our curricula, our assessment practice, in a manner that will empower students, because if we don’t, they are vulnerable to what we didn’t teach them, what they didn’t get out of their learning experience during their time with us. And so it’s mission critical. There’s nothing more important than saying, “Okay, I need to know, as a teacher in field X, I need to know how AI is impacting my role as a teacher, but also my field, my discipline,” and if I can’t communicate that to students, if I’m not helping them navigate that with me, that’s awkward. That’s a failed promise, and nobody wants that. I have such great faith in my colleagues. I’ve never worked with a more committed faculty, a more committed campus community. It’s beautiful. And so this is mission critical. We got to think about how we can best serve students by responding to this moment in a multifaceted, planful way.

Rebecca: One of the ways to respond that we haven’t directly addressed, but might be worth mentioning in this context is we can get insulated in departments, get insulated within our institution. But there’s a real need for the higher ed sector to work together to promote state/federal regulations around some of these things too. We talked about incentive for students to leverage [LAUGHTER] these tools to skate by, but there’s also a real incentive for these companies to keep finding ways to circumvent [LAUGHTER] any of the security in place. So I think we don’t talk about that enough, our role as educators and the ways that we can participate in moving potential regulations forward. I think that what I’m suggesting is like, we don’t really talk about that much, but it seems as though there’s a role we could play.

Kathleen: I think so. And I know I’m using this word a lot in this conversation, but I think it’s a multifaceted approach. So one of the appeals I would make is that this is an equity issue. Increasingly, some will have great access and exposure to AI platforms, and will benefit from that, and will learn how to use these platforms ethically in a manner that serves themselves and society well. Others will be boxed out of that for any number of reasons, up to and including socioeconomic status. So if we can have value laden conversations, in the best sense of the term, we can keep this personal in a weird way if we cannot lose sight of the human impact of technological advancement here, I think that’s the name of the game when it comes to advocacy. And then we all just work at scale, whether it’s organizational or societal. We influence the circles in which we operate to generate smart conversations about, “Hey, what do students need to learn? What do students need to be empowered to be able to do or not do with or without AI?” [LAUGHTER] For me, the advocacy piece takes the form of what can we do to stave off vulnerability, either at the individual or organizational level, and for the individual level, it’s often on behalf of the students. How can we advocate on behalf of students? So, I don’t know if that fully answers your question, but I see a lot of things structurally, and I see different scales and different facets, different points of entry, if you will, for the conversation. And so equity would be one of my points of entry for the advocacy piece.

John: And as we’re all wondering, when we’re talking about AI, what’s next?

Kathleen: That’s a great question. I’m going to just pop that into ChatGPT, if you don’t mind, I’m just going to “what’s next.” [LAUGHTER] Oh, boy. Honestly, I think connecting with more and more folks and staying connected and having the conversations and taking a deep breath and figuring it out together. I think that’s what’s next. I think it’s about incremental change and incremental responses and just huddling up and doing what we can to honor the mission of the institutions we serve. That’s what’s next, I think.

John: It sounds like a great approach, and I think we need to do a lot more of that. Thank you for joining us. And we’re looking forward to that next conversation.

Kathleen: That sounds lovely. This was so delightful. It was really a treat to talk with you both. Thank you.

Rebecca: And we’re looking forward to the next time to huddle up, for sure. [LAUGHTER]

Kathleen: Likewise, thank you.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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436. The Joyful Online Teacher

Online classes provide opportunities for students not served by traditional in-person classes, but asynchronous experiences can seem isolating for both students and instructors. In this episode, Flower Darby joins us to discuss ways to make online instruction more joyful for both students and faculty.

Flower is an Associate Director of the Teaching and Learning Center at the University of Missouri. Prior to this position, she served as an Assistant Dean of Online and Innovative Pedagogies and Director of Teaching for Student Success. Flower has over 30 years of teaching experience, including both in-person and online modalities, and is frequently invited as a keynote speaker at academic conferences. She is a co-author of Small Teaching Online: Applying Learning Sciences in Online Classes, and The Norton Guide to Equity-Minded Teaching. Her new book, The Joyful Online Teacher: Finding Our Fizz in Asynchronous Classes, has just been released by the University of Oklahoma Press.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Online classes provide opportunities for students not served by traditional in-person classes, but asynchronous experiences can seem isolating for both students and instructors. In this episode, we discuss ways to make online instruction more joyful for both students and faculty.

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John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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Rebecca: Our guest today is Flower Darby. Flower is an Associate Director of the Teaching and Learning Center at the University of Missouri. Prior to this position, she served as an Assistant Dean of Online and Innovative Pedagogies and Director of Teaching for Student Success. Flower has over 30 years of teaching experience, including both in-person and online modalities, and is frequently invited as a keynote speaker at academic conferences. She is a co-author of Small Teaching Online: Applying Learning Sciences in Online Classes, and The Norton Guide to Equity-Minded Teaching. Her new book, The Joyful Online Teacher: Finding Our Fizz in Asynchronous Classes, has just been released by the University of Oklahoma Press. Welcome back, Flower.

Flower: Thank you so much. It’s my true delight to be here with you both.

John: We’re really happy to talk to you. It’s been a while.

Flower: Yes, we’ve all been busy, I think. Lots going on.

John: And certainly you have been. [LAUGHTER] Our teas today are:… Flower, are you drinking tea with us today?

Flower: I do have tea, and I went with a classic Earl Grey today.

John: Very nice.

Rebecca: Nice!

John: In a nice inclusive education mug. Is that what I saw on there?

Flower: That’s what I have, from CU Boulder, inclusive educators. This is actually from their podcast, Inclusive Educators.

John: Nice.

Rebecca: I have a cinnamon cardamom tea.

John: And now that the temperature has risen above zero, today we have a heat wave. I think we just checked and it was 12 degrees. I am having spring cherry green tea in honor of the spring, which will be here sometime in the next few months.

Flower: Love it.

Rebecca: Sounds good with the temperatures rising. Flower, we invited you here today to discuss The Joyful Online Teacher. Can you tell us about the origin of this book?

Flower: Yes, Rebecca, this has been a long time coming. It originally started through inspiration from Dr. Sarah Rose Cavanagh’s really transformational book in my life and in the lives of many educators and students. Her book is The Spark of Learning: Energizing the College Classroom with the Science of Emotion. She has other ones, but that’s the original inspiration for this book. And as soon as I read it, I thought, “Wow, there is so much potential when we truly apply the findings from emotion science to asynchronous classes in particular.” So I began cultivating this idea. This book is also inspired by the work of Dr. Barbara Means, a very well published scholar, researcher on education, learning, and technology, and in 2022, she put out a paper calling for the application of psychological literature to online classes. She pointed out that the frameworks that we are accustomed to talking about really come out of educational technology, and we need to go a little deeper into how people learn online. So that factored into this. And then I would say the third ingredient that sort of shaped this book is just my ongoing sense that online classes are kind of less than. They’re just not as fun [LAUGHTER] as teaching in person, at least for me. I love teaching in person. I love when we get to be together in a room, and yet I see so much value and purpose in asynchronous online classes as well. Student demand is growing. It is an equity issue for me to make these classes as positive and supportive as they can be, and so what we ended up with is The Joyful Online Teacher.

John: And s peaking of positive, your first chapter begins with a discussion of Martin Seligman’s PERMA model of well being to provide a theoretical framework for your book. It’s been a while since we discussed this model on the podcast, and I think we only discussed it once before. So can you provide our listeners with an overview of this model?

Flower: Yes, so I did deviate from what a lot of us who write about online education really tend to rely on like the Community of Inquiry framework, for example. And I just wanted to find out how we could foster thriving and flourishing and well-being in our asynchronous classes in general, because in my experience teaching online for decades, it doesn’t feel like I’m flourishing in that environment. And what the students tell us, and what many educators tell us, is that that’s a common experience. So I turned to PERMA, as you said, Seligman’s theory of well-being that he introduced in a 2011 book called Flourish. And PERMA is an acronym for five building blocks of individual well being. And what I love about this model is, first of all, it’s extremely well tested, and there’s a mountain of empirical evidence that shows that it reliably predicts well being and success better functioning in every life domain. So I love that it’s so well validated and supported. But I also love that you can pick and choose between these five building blocks based on what resonates with you, your personality and such. So let me quickly summarize the five building blocks, and the idea is cultivating experiences within any of these domains are going to enhance our own sense of well-being, our own happiness. So “P” is for positive emotions, and what the literature shows is that when we are experiencing positive and pleasant emotions, like enjoyment, like gratitude, satisfaction, pride, a whole range of pleasant experiences, we’re going to feel better. And that makes sense, right? But as Seligman himself points out, about 50% of the world does not go around feeling positive all the time, and so I love that there are other sort of building blocks. “E” is for engagement, that’s the state of flow. That’s where we’re so absorbed in the task at hand that we lose all sense of time and self, and that’s a source of well-being. “R” is for relationships, and specifically positive relationships, I think about these especially in an online class in terms of supportive social connections. “M” is for meaning. When we find value and purpose in the thing that we are doing, that in itself, is another way to boost our own well being. And “A” is for accomplishment and this one resonates with me. It is crossing the item off the to do list. It is winning the game of cards just for the sake of winning. It is helping our online students cross the finish line of our classes. So what I did in this book is I highlighted two of these domains as particularly relevant and impactful for asynchronous online classes. I take a deep dive on positive emotions, what does the emotion science say? And how can we put that to work in online classes, and then “R,” relationships, supportive social connections? How can we help everybody thrive and persist in those online classes based on those two elements specifically?

Rebecca: So in your book, you provide an analogy between building a course and preparing for a road trip as a way of establishing this sense of well being. I know, personally, I enjoy planning trips. So what are some design strategies that can be used to promote well being during the semester, particularly around these like positive emotions?

Flower: Yeah, it’s funny you said that, Rebecca, because I hate planning for a road trip, and I got to be so real, I don’t love all the stuff that we have to do as instructors to get ready for an online class. I feel overwhelmed, and I don’t think I’m alone by all the rubrics, all the checklists, all the frameworks, all the “you should do this” and “best practices that,” organizing the modules, it’s not my favorite. It’s not where I find the fizz, making sure the rubrics are there, the dates are all right. All of that is not my favorite, but it’s funny that you said that, because, of course, I discuss everything with my amazing husband, Tim. He’s an instructional designer. He’s been supporting faculty teaching with technology in classrooms and online for over 30 years. And he was like, “Wow, I kind of like planning for the road trip.” [LAUGHTER] And I was thinking specifically about the tasks that may not be as fun, like getting the car to the mechanic, getting the wheels aligned, but when you take the time to do those things, then you foster a more enjoyable trip when you’re actually on the road trip. So chapter one really is about what I find to be a little bit less fizzy, but then I know there’s other folks like you who are like, “No, it’s okay, let’s get our checklists done.” And so, thinking about how do we set up our course? And this is not really new [LAUGHTER] for anybody who has any experience supporting online teaching or teaching online. It is about, well, first of all, I encourage us to remind ourselves of the “why,” of the meaning and of the purpose. Again, back to the “M” in PERMA, I know for a fact that online classes literally change lives, to quote one of the folks who’s featured in this book, Michelle Pacansky-Brock, “they make it possible for people to attain a college credential or degree when it would not otherwise be possible to do.” And so when I do get a little bit bogged down with the tedium, the administrivia of preparing an online class, I have to remind myself of my “why,” and so that’s what we start with in chapter one. Then, I kind of go through some of those relatively well understood strategies in terms of making sure your course is organized. And to your point about fostering a more enjoyable experience, when my course is confusing, then what happens is the students get confused, and what we know from emotion science is frustration or confusion demotivates learning and learners, then they email me with questions, as they should, and then I have a whole mountain of email, right? And so it’s kind of like when the wheel is out of alignment, it’s harder to steer the vehicle and keep it on track, but when you take the time to make sure that things are set up, that they are organized, everybody does have that more enjoyable experience. So one other thing that I would mention here, as we’re setting up the class is to kind of set ourselves and our students up for success by announcing our availability. Now more than ever before, online students might expect an answer in the moment, and we are not AI chatbots. We are not available 24/7, so help our students know that. When life circumstances come up for ourselves that impact our availability, let our students know that. Let them know if we need to be away for a few days, when we’re going to be back, anything like that that we feel comfortable sharing. All of those are ways to set up the journey for success.

Rebecca: One of the things that I heard you say, that I think everyone can relate to, is not enjoying piles of email. So having less piles of email alone could make for more joyful experiences for everybody. [LAUGHTER]

Flower: And if I could just comment on that, any strategy that has been successful in my own teaching and anything I recommend that seems to resonate with folks more broadly is pretty much all about saving me pain. [LAUGHTER] There are tedious aspects of teaching, and oftentimes it is something that we could do better. If a lot of my students are missing the mark on an assignment, maybe I wasn’t as clear or explicit in the instructions. So if I go back and I add to the transparency of what I’m asking students to do, eventually the result is less grading time for me because they’re getting it on the mark. So I admit it’s purely selfish, but whenever I can save myself pain or help other faculty save themselves some pain, I actually think it’s benefiting their well being and student success as well.

John: Now, I’m with you in that I much more enjoy the interactions with students as the course is progressing, but after I started teaching, I realized I couldn’t really be that improvisational and just do things day to day and so forth. And I’ve learned also that putting in the extra effort, getting all the details in, creating a consistent course structure, making sure that everything is there in advance, just makes it so much more enjoyable later. I don’t enjoy that part of it, but it does pay off in terms of the rest of the course, and those few weeks of getting things ready in advance, or maybe more than a few weeks, depending on whether it’s a course you’ve done before or if it’s a new course, really pays off nicely.

Flower: That’s exactly right, John, I agree with you 100%.

John: And I was thinking when you mentioned that about how we started this podcast. When we first started talking about I said, “Okay, well, let’s record one tomorrow, and we can release it later this week.” And Rebecca’s response was, “Well, why don’t we plan to start releasing them in about a month or so? Let’s get everything organized and planned first.” So it worked out well, but it was a bit of an adjustment there.

Rebecca: It’s a little yin and yang going on here.

Flower: That’s good!

John: So, in an in-person class, having an energetic and enthusiastic instructor can help inspire student engagement, because we know that emotions are contagious. It’s a little bit harder, perhaps, to do that in an online class. How might instructors create a similar environment in an asynchronous course?

Flower: This is such an important question, and the beauty of it is that a little goes a long way. And one of the things that I do in this book is I tell the stories of people who love teaching online, and we just get to learn from their experiences. So the book is as much storytelling as there is research and empirical evidence to support the recommendations, but there’s also people who love teaching online, and I really think keeping our focus on that, on the people in the class, seeing our online students as people, and not just names on a screen, which I myself have been guilty of, and really highlighting the importance of regular interactions, but not in a mechanical way. So to get to your point, as you already mentioned, emotion is contagious, and there is a lot of evidence to show that teacher enthusiasm literally infects students and energizes them, and this definitely applies in online spaces as well. Anybody who’s familiar with my work are going to see some themes [LAUGHTER] that have been characterizing my work for some time now. But let’s think about, how do we convey our passion to our online students? Whether it is in the recording, maybe an audio or a video recording. The research shows that even, especially video, even like animating our facial features and inflecting some enthusiasm in our vocal intonation that can energize students, even in an audio recording. Again, there’s more depth and nuance, and we can convey that excitement about what we’re doing in class. We can also convey that we really care about our students when we’re more willing to bring that media. It doesn’t even have to be just media, though. We can do this in our written comments, announcements, feedback, discussion posts. It really is about being “the sun” is the way I think about it. I personally think Canvas, Moodle, Blackboard, places like these, are ugly. I really do. [LAUGHTER] I cannot believe how they are so not user friendly, so unappealing visually. So I think about what individuals, as instructors, what we can do to bring warmth, energy and enthusiasm into our classes. And it may be that you send an announcement with a meme, or maybe you tend to use emojis. Those kinds of things that are resonant to our authentic selves, and being mindful to project our enthusiasm about our topics, about student success, those are ways that we can create a similar environment in online classes.

Rebecca: One of the other areas where there’s a lot of growing evidence is that students are more likely to persist and learn more when they feel like they belong. What are some of the strategies you recommend to help students feel that they belong in an online class, particularly in an asynchronous setting?

Flower: Yeah, I’m really glad to be talking about this. My co-authors and I took a deep dive on this in The Norton Guide to Equity-Minded Teaching, which is freely available thanks to W.W. Norton. That’s where I really began to articulate, “what does the research say, and how do we apply it in online classes?” And what we know is persistently, consistently, for decades now, students in asynchronous online classes have told us that they don’t feel they do belong, they feel isolated, they feel lonely, they do not feel connected with other people. In fact, there’s a relatively recent study that reports one student saying that they don’t even think it’s possible to feel that there’s a community in online classes. So we have work to do here. Those feelings of isolation and loneliness definitely contribute to those higher attrition rates that we experience in online classes. I love the example of, again, my friend and colleague, Dr. Isis Artze-Vega, lead author of The Norton Guide, and she really put into practice this idea of relentless welcome, which we learned about in Relationship-Rich Education by Felton and Lambert. It’s this idea of communicating to students repeatedly that we’re there for them, we will help them. If they have a late assignment, what can we do to help them get that assignment in, to help them cross the finish line? Again, Isis’ story about asynchronous teaching is in the book. There are many others, but it is about helping our students see us as a real person. For example, I’m in a lot of online classes, and I speak with a lot of online instructors, and it surprises me, and quite frankly, it saddens me, how frequently there is not even a photo of the instructor in the online class. There may be good, valid reasons why an individual instructor does not want to post an image of their face. I understand and respect that. But I think there’s a lot more of us who just haven’t put two and two together. Students tell us they feel like we’re not real. They tell us that they think we’re just computers or bots. So let’s help our students see who we are as a real person. A headshot, a photo of ourselves doing a hobby, and again, it’s not just one and done. It’s not just an “all about me” page at the beginning of the semester. It is about interacting in ways that help our students see that “Wow, we really are ice hockey fans,” and “did you see that game over the weekend,” right? Or whatever our personal interests might be, that we feel comfortable bringing into class. Again, not crossing any boundaries, but helping our students see that we are real people can help them feel connected to us. And the flip side is also true as well, being intentional to get to know our students as real people really goes a long way. As I already mentioned, I have been guilty of seeing a name on a screen and struggling to envision the real person who was on the other side of that screen. So first-day information sheets, where we collect some information from our students, and maybe invite disclosure, I don’t think we should require, but maybe invite students to share a little bit about their personal interests, hobbies, career goals. Those kinds of activities can help us demonstrate to our students that we do see them, that we do care about them, that they are a valued member of the community, that fosters belonging and that predicts academic success and completion of the online course.

John: And we’ll include links to The Norton Guide, as well as Relationship-Rich Education, as well as a couple of podcasts we had with some of the authors. Along those same lines, one of the things that may be difficult is that we know that there’s research that suggests that when people read written feedback, they’re more likely to perceive it as negative than if they hear it being said, because we don’t see facial expressions, body language, tone, and other things. Now, video can help address some of those things, but if people are not going to be using video, how can they convey this more positive and supportive environment to reduce the risk of misperceiving some of the comments that students may see?

Flower: Yeah, great question, and again, a relatively simple thing that we can do when we pay attention to the words that we write. I alluded to this earlier in this conversation, it is 100% possible to convey enthusiasm, support, encouragement, “you got this,” when we take another moment or two to write some of those quick phrases. Some online instructors find it helpful to have some template text that they can copy and paste. I personally tend to be more spontaneous and in the moment, but there is an aspect of taking a few more moments to share a few more words that help students and being intentional. Now, I don’t think any of us should be inauthentic. As you may know about me, I tend to have kind of a natural cheerleader kind of a personality like, “Come on, we can do this!” And I don’t think people should break that way if that’s not their style, but I do think we can overcome the transactional distance, create warmth that is not always evident in these text heavy environments. The course material itself is often written in a dry academic language. I take inspiration from research that shows that warming up the tone of your syllabus can help students feel better prepared for success, the same is true in our written materials in online classes. And the last thing I would say is findings from research on immediacy cues in asynchronous classes, specifically immediacy cues that comes out of the field of communication and it’s a way to help students feel that you are approachable as an instructor, that you are on their side, you are available to help them. We often think about these immediacy cues in in-person classes, for example, maintaining a pleasant facial expression of body language that is a little bit more relaxed, not standing at the lectern and just reading your notes. These are in-person nonverbal immediacy cues, but research has shown that there are things that we can do in online classes to apply this effect as well. One of them is about the perception of time, so students notice the length of our comments or our feedback on an assignment, and if it seems like we were very brusque and abrupt, again, sort of a negative perception is formed, but if they perceive… because we have included just a few more words in our message… if they perceive that we spent a little bit more time with them, it boosts their motivation and engagement, both of which are precursors to learning. So in my opinion, how do we do this when we’re relying on text, it is faster. I think that typing comments is faster than recording video. I certainly encourage people to use more video, but when I’m teaching online, taking just a mindful moment to add a few more words of encouragement, maybe even to acknowledge, “hey, this is challenging, but I know you can do this.” Typing words like that makes a difference.

Rebecca: One of the things that we mentioned just briefly a little bit ago was that in online, asynchronous classes, there’s higher attrition rates than in-person classes. What are some other strategies we can use to encourage students to persist?

Flower: Yeah, so I’m thinking of a 2024 research paper that came out and I love when articles have a catchy phrase. This one, the first part of the title is, “It Helped Push Me Through the Class,” and it’s the things that we have been talking about. It is relational online teaching. It is teaching with rapport. And as I mentioned at the very beginning here, a little goes a long way. Having that photo of the instructor, writing opening materials in an online course in a way that makes it very clear for students to understand what they need to do to get started, maybe trying to break up our written materials in the online classes with a little more white space, with a little bit more use of headings, keeping everything accessible, so that we are meeting digital accessibility requirements, absolutely, but we can bring in more of that relational kind of online teaching. That’s the way I think about it. Again, Michelle Pacansky-Brock is doing great work in this area. She talks about humanized online teaching. It’s the same thing, it is about cheering our students on, pulling for their success, maybe reaching out. Attrition rates are higher, they have consistently been for decades. Maybe what we do is we’re intentional to take 15 minutes on a Monday morning and check and see who has not really been active in the class in a few days, send a little message to that individual and say, “Hey, I noticed you haven’t been here. Are you okay? Is there anything I can do to help?” That kind of a strategy doesn’t take very long. It can make a huge difference for students, because it communicates that you noticed, that you saw that they were not there, and you took action to reach out in a supportive way. That’s the kind of thing that can and does make a difference with helping students persist and complete the online class.

John: Just a few minutes ago, you suggested that one of the ways we can help connect to students and create a better relationship with the instructor is by finding out more about the students and asking them some questions so that we get to know our students a bit better. But if they share that information with other students, could that help build community in some way, if we can bring some of those things into discussion forums or some class activities where they’re revealing something that they’re comfortable revealing about themselves and why they’re taking the course, perhaps. Might that help forge better connections among the students in the class?

Flower: Yeah, it’s all about, as you said, helping students find some common interests. And the way I think about this is to structure social interactions throughout the class, not just in the first week in the introductions forum. I mean, that’s standard, and I do recommend that we should do that, have an introduction forum in week one, but in many online classes, that’s it. There’s no further attempt to build connections and relationships among the students. When we are intentional to do that, what happens is, again, that more naturally warm environment, a more trusting environment, which will help students engage. So for example, I think it can be helpful to have maybe a weekly social post only. I was speaking with one instructor recently who changes the prompt every week, and if this aligns with your grading philosophy, I recommend assigning points. Make it worth points, because online students are busy, they don’t do things that aren’t required. I understand that, but maybe one week, the topic of discussion is, “what series are you binging right now?” Maybe the next week, “what is one favorite hot beverage, given the icy temperatures,” right? Things that don’t have much to do with class, encourage students to post photos or memes. If they want to do that, it will be amazing. And I think people will really see the benefit of investing time and part of the grading scheme and module space in structuring ways for students to connect and engage with each other in ways that are not necessarily about the material in the class, just person to person.

Rebecca: In a lot of ways, that’s very similar to the small talk or small interactions that happen before or after an in-person class. And you have to be more intentional design those opportunities when an online environment is kind of a drop in, drop out, as you need or as it makes sense for you on your schedule. So you have to kind of make those spaces for that to occur.

Flower: That’s exactly right, and I actually want to qualify some of what I said, I get very carried away with myself. But to your point, social interactions can happen spontaneously and naturally, whether it’s turning to your neighbor and saying, “Hey, do you have an extra piece of paper,” whatever it might be, and the research has found that that’s actually really important to help students be successful. So that’s why I say “Yes, it doesn’t happen by accident in online classes. Let us structure those opportunities.” But, [LAUGHTER] I want to qualify that. I have learned over time that in some courses that may not be as necessary in some disciplines, maybe students don’t have time for the social stuff as much. So two points here, for example, once a number of years ago, I was speaking with a professor in an MBA program. He’s like, “My students are motivated, they are busy, they are professionals, they know what they need to do, they want to get in and out, they don’t have time for all that fluff.” And at the time, I wrestled with that, but I think he has a point. So instructor preference, discipline, the nature of the program, the kinds of students that you have, these are all factors that we want to take into consideration. I still would argue that some social support is more beneficial than not having that much, but every recommendation like this, I think individual instructors need to filter it through their own wisdom and experience, and make those informed decisions based on what they think will be best for their students, their discipline and such.

Rebecca: I can imagine some of those could be a little more spontaneous feeling if you have students that have some similar interests that you learn as you’re interacting with them, and you connect them to one another because they do have some shared goals or interests or pursuits.

Flower: Yeah, one of my favorite recommendations, again, people who are familiar with my work may have heard me talk about this before,[LAUGHTER] but it’s because it’s so good. This idea originally came from Dr. Courtney Plotts. What I like to do is to provide a slide, or it could be a Canvas page, for example, with some images that represent kind of a wide range of emotional and mental states. And then make this a discussion forum, and it would be “which picture best,” and then you can finish that sentence however you want to, in terms of the prompt, right? “Which picture best represents how you’re feeling about your weekend,” or “this upcoming project that we have due,” or “your college classes in general for this semester,” and then again, if it’s in a discussion forum, students can connect with each other over the pictures that they choose. And so the slide that I tend to use a lot has a happy looking dog. It has the nervous slash playful looking cat. It has a dark mountain scape with heavy clouds and snow. It has a humming bird drinking nectar from a flower. And when students see that somebody else picked the dog, “Oh, yeah, tell me about your dog!” There are ways to structure with some degree of spontaneity as well. And like I said earlier, my personal sense is that in asynchronous classes, assigning points is more necessary because we know students don’t do things if they’re not worth points. That is not my overall grading philosophy, but regarding asynchronous online classes, I would say that when students see that you’re assigning points for some of those things, it conveys that it’s important. It conveys the value that you place on those activities.

John: For many years, one of my colleagues and I have been using this metacognitive cafe, low-stakes discussion forum where students reflect on their learning process, and at the end of the semester, they always said that that was one of the things they valued the most, because it helped them see that other people were struggling with some of the same issues, that they weren’t alone. Besides the benefits from just the metacognitive reflection on their learning, it helped them to see that the things they were struggling with were experienced by other students as well, and they would often bring up things saying, “I have to take care of a two-year old, and it’s really difficult to do these things.” And then other people would respond about some of their challenges, and it just helped form much more of a community where they got to know each other much better than they would have if the focus was just on the content directly.

Flower: That is a wonderful example. I love that so much, that empathy building, that sense that we’re not in this alone. That’s exactly what online students tell us, [LAUGHTER] they feel like they’re in this alone. So I love that opportunity to, if nothing else, vent or commiserate [LAUGHTER] and share that experience to build that trusting community. I love it.

Rebecca: One of the things that we talked about a little bit earlier was how some students may think that we’re just a bunch of bots teaching these online classes, and obviously the proliferation of generative AI generally can really feel like it sucks the joy out of some teaching. How do we prevent some of that from happening and maintain this joy and online instruction in the presence of AI?

Flower: Yeah, a really important and very timely topic. In the forthcoming book, there is a subtitle that basically says, “don’t let AI steal your joy.” That sums it up for me. There are people who are calling for the end of asynchronous online education because it’s impossible to prevent students from using AI to outsource their learning. I don’t agree with those calls. We know, again, that this modality makes it possible for people to pursue a degree when they wouldn’t otherwise be able to, not to mention, it’s a business model that is well established [LAUGHTER] in higher education. Student demand for this format is growing. What we need to do is to figure out how we double down on the human connections we’ve been talking about, and motivate students to not outsource their learning to AI. So, and I do want to be very clear, I’m not talking about agentic AI. It is horrifyingly possible now for a student to use an agent browser to go in and complete online class tasks. That, I’m gobsmacked. [LAUGHTER] I still think that the human connection will help students choose not to do that, but I’m not talking about agentic, I’m only talking about generative AI. And again, I do firmly believe that cultivating trust, that building the social connection among students and instructors, that we can help students choose not to use AI in inappropriate ways. I also think all of the recommendations that people are making for how to teach and facilitate meaningful learning with AI, in in-person classes, we can apply those same ideas online: give students transparent guidance on exactly what you’re asking them to do, exactly what you don’t want them to do with AI, invite students to… not invite… I would say, actually assign students to disclose where and how they used AI, structure a reflection that gets students to think, to John’s point, about the metacognitive aspect, “did my use of AI help me, or did it hold back my learning? Or was it more trouble than it’s worth?” All of those kinds of recommendations where we are talking to students about AI, building critical literacy, awareness of the ethical concerns, responsible AI use, I think all of those same ideas can totally happen in asynchronous online classes. And I would argue that we would double down again on that human connection. Now what I am seeing, I’ll just add briefly, many asynchronous instructors are needing to shake things up a little bit. So we have always relied on discussion forums. Some instructors are moving towards social annotation using tools like Perusal or Hypothesis. Some folks are kind of rediscovering tools that we’ve had for a while, like Voice Thread because, yeah, let’s face it, those often tired and uninspiring discussion forums that we’ve relied on for a long time, that have been ripe for change for a long time, some of those existing or traditional ways of doing things just make it too easy for students to outsource their learning with AI. So changing things up in ways that are long overdue, I would argue, these are some of the ways that we can address the threat that AI poses. Last thing I would say on this is I know for a fact that there are hard working people who want the learning and they want the degree legitimately, they’re going to do the work. We have an opportunity to think more creatively, to inspire and motivate our students by giving them meaningful, relevant activities and tasks online.

Rebecca: This feels like the flat tire part of the road trip where you actually successfully get a new tire. [LAUGHTER]

Flower: You know, this isn’t a surprise to you. When we were in the pandemic, when we were coming out of the pandemic, many of us were going,”Great! We can change some things that have needed changing!” It feels that way to me again. There have been many aspects of asynchronous online classes that needed refreshing, maybe now we’ll actually do this.

John: And these issues, these challenges from AI, are not unique to asynchronous instruction. It’s basically with any type of work that students are doing outside of the classroom. And there’s a lot of people exploring this, both in face-to- face classes as well as in online classes, and we do have to think more carefully about the assignments we’re giving and how they might work, and how we can incentivize students to focus on the learning rather than outsourcing that.

Flower: I would like to add, there are really wonderful smart scholars like Dr. Tricia Bertram Gallant and her co-author, Dr. David Rettinger, there’s a global community of folks working on academic integrity, and these folks are rightfully [LAUGHTER] inviting some conversation about how valid our assessment of student learning can be on any work that happens outside of a physical classroom. To your point, this does not just apply to online classes, but anything we ask students to do that does not take place under our watchful eyes and without any technology, which introduces some inclusivity concerns. This is a concern. So in the context of asynchronous online, especially, because I don’t think it’s going away, I don’t think it can or should go away. I do wonder if we might see a return or a resurgence of in-person testing centers. And I’m kind of speaking that in that voice, because it’s not ideal in some ways, but proctored tests are a thing that still happen. For example, the NCLEX exam in nursing, that is a supervised in person experience. It has to be. I would like my nurse to adequately give me the medication that is prescribed. So I’m wondering, for asynchronous online classes, if we might see more in-person assessment. And I’ll share one model from my former institution, Northern Arizona University. In Arizona, there’s a wide rural population, and I love this model. Basically, agreements were made with local libraries, community colleges, other such gathering places around the state, and students would just make an appointment and go to their local place to do an in-person assessment. So, I just wonder if we can, and maybe even should, begin to explore that option more fully than is currently the case.

John: And when we talked to the authors of The Opposite of Cheating, we’ll share a link to that as well, one of the things they talked about was the possibility of consortiums of schools or state university systems, perhaps, agreeing to do some joint proctoring to provide capabilities for that throughout the state, and that might be an option, but it would be hard for smaller private schools, perhaps, to join in these types of things, but it is something that I think we should explore because of these challenges.

Flower: And that’s why I love the model at NAU, where a local library or a community college or other offices that already exist, they just entered into an arrangement and had a system and had a system and a process.

Rebecca: All right, so we always wrap up by asking, what’s next?

Flower: Well, I have to tell you, what’s next for me is finishing my PhD! [LAUGHTER] This is something that I have been quietly pursuing in the background for a number of years now. My program is fully online, asynchronous, I have been walking a mile in the online students’ shoes, and I am not undertaking any other big projects until I finish this PhD. My experience has informed the book. When I said earlier that I talk with a lot of online students, it’s because they’re my classmates. [LAUGHTER] So that is next for me. I want to finish this. It’s a PhD in psychology. How do we learn, and therefore, how do we teach more effectively? So it completely aligns with my work. It finally became time to pursue this, but it’s hard, just like for our online students to be a working professional with many pursuits in life and try to juggle that as well. So that’s next for me, is finishing that program.

Rebecca: You got this, Flower! [LAUGHTER]

Flower: Thank you! But I tell you what, no more books until it’s done. That I know for sure. [LAUGHTER]

John: Yes and keep the fizz going through the dissertation process.

Flower: Yes, absolutely.

John: Well, thank you. It’s always great talking to you, and we’re looking forward to hearing more about your research on your dissertation.

Flower: Yes, thank you so much again for having me. As you know, these conversations bring me fizz, and I hope your listeners feel a little bit more uplifted and fizzy as a result.

Rebecca: I think they will. Thank you, Flower.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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435. Insights From The Field

This podcast is a recording of a panel session featuring three online learning leaders, that was presented at the SUNY Online Learning Summit on Wednesday, February 25, 2026. The panelists are Yakut Gazi, Marina Amini, and Van Davis. Yakut is the Vice Provost for Learning Innovation and Digital Education at Duke University. Marina is the Executive Director of the California Virtual Campus, and Van is the Executive Director of WCET and the Vice President of Digital Learning at WICHE.

Show Notes

Transcript

John: Today’s Tea for Teaching podcast is a recording of a panel session, featuring three online learning leaders, that was presented at the SUNY Online Learning Summit on Wednesday, February 25, 2026.

[MUSIC]

John: Thanks for joining us for Tea for Teaching, an informal discussion of innovative and effective practices in teaching and learning.

Rebecca: This podcast series is hosted by John Kane, an economist…

John: …and Rebecca Mushtare, a graphic designer…

Rebecca: …and features guests doing important research and advocacy work to make higher education more inclusive and supportive of all learners.

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John: Welcome to: “Insights from the Field,” a special Tea for Teaching podcast on policy, data, and inclusive collaboration. I’m John Kane, an economist and the director of the Center for Excellence in Learning and Teaching at the State University of New York at Oswego.

Rebecca: I’m Rebecca Mushtare, a designer and the Deputy Dean of Graduate Studies at SUNY Oswego. We’re the hosts of the Tea for Teaching podcast and the moderators for this session. Our guests today are Yakut Gazi, Marina Amini, and Van Davis. Yakut is the Vice Provost for Learning Innovation and Digital Education at Duke University. Marina is the Executive Director of the California Virtual Campus, and Van is the Executive Director of WCET and the Vice President of Digital Learning at WICHE. Welcome Yakut, Marina, and Van.

John: Today’s teas are: …and we’ll start with Yakut.

Yakut: So I’m Turkish originally, and Turkish tea is the big thing. We always have Turkish tea brewing in our houses. So that’s my tea.

John: Very good. And Marina?

Marina: And I’m from Afghanistan originally, so I’m drinking green tea with cardamom.

John: Excellent. And Van?

Van: Well, I’ve already switched over to water today, but my favorite tea is lapsang souchong. I love a nice smoked tea.

John: I do too. I have to keep it separate from my others so they don’t all become smoked flavored tea, but it’s a very nice flavor. And Rebecca?

Rebecca: I have a Pekoe tea, Edinburgh’s Gin Tea and Roses today.

John: And in honor of this recording time in January in upstate New York, I am drinking a spring cherry green tea, [LAUGHTER]…looking forward to somewhat warmer and less snowy weather. So we’ve invited you here today to discuss the future of online education. We’ve seen rapid proliferation and evolution in generative AI platforms since they were publicly introduced just a little over three years ago, leading to concerns about the integrity of online assessments, especially recently given the development and use of AI agents. How should online learning leaders address the risks that this poses to the perceived value of online courses and degrees?

Rebecca: Yakut?

Yakut: It is true that advances in AI created risk for the way traditional education is delivered, and also assessed. The concern about AI undermining validity isn’t unique to online education, though, it affects all of higher education. If you remember, COVID has created a pedagogical emergency. Generative AI created a new one, but I’m not sure if you’re treating it the way it needs to be treated like we treated in the COVID period as an emergency. Online learners, I think, may be actually better positioned to respond, because we have already been engaging in academic innovation and advocating for active learning and authentic assessment for many years. So this may be an opportunity to implement better approaches in a full-scale manner, where the focus becomes the process of learning rather than the product of learning, because that now can be created through the use of AI, and it’s actually being done in all of our classrooms, whether or not we like it. So we, as the learning leaders, need to push the conversation from preventing AI use to designing learning experiences where the use of AI is transparent, ethical, and skill building. So this means creating policies that allow for AI use, like when and how, rather than ban AI use, and also focusing on authentic assessments, project-based work, reflective practice, collaboration, things that AI can support but cannot replace. But I think the challenge is not necessarily modality, like online as a modality is a challenge. We know how to do these things. The challenge is doing these pedagogically sound things at scale. In my mind, this is a moment that poses a risk for online education at scale, more than online education broadly. But then for us to implement this approach where focus is not on the outcomes but the process, we have to work with employers, we have to be able to articulate our competencies to employers that AI is not a threat to credibility, it’s the part of our formula in higher education and how we how we train people. For example, imagine every course in our institutions have an opportunity for hands-on authentic learning, where at the end there is a skill that’s visible to future employers. There are 8.2 million learners in higher education who wants an internship, but only 3.6 million of those get one. There’s a huge gap already, so hands-on internship opportunities during our course of higher education should not be for those who want it, or it should not be postponed to last year of education. It should be an integrated part of the equation. These are, to me, pedagogically possible, but the challenge is to be able to figure out the logistics and systems to do this at scale.

Marina: So we are talking a little bit about the word academic integrity. You know that really resonated from your description, John, and I’m from the California Virtual Campus, which represents the California Community Colleges. We’re 116 colleges serving about 2.2 million students, and this is an issue that we’ve been grappling with around academic integrity, especially with agentic AI. And just to kind of put it in perspective of what do we mean by agentic AI? Because I think it could have a couple of different definitions. When I’m talking about agentic AI, I’m talking about these autonomous agents that can go and log on into an LMS, a learning management system on behalf of a student, scan for assessments or assignments or discussion posts to complete them and submit them on behalf of the student within seconds. And we already have analytics in our learning management system that indicate that a student can go in, and has gone in, because we have the data and completed a 50-item quiz, short answer quiz, not multiple choice, and submitted it within about four seconds, so we know that the student is not searching for these as prompts on like ChatGPT, because that would actually involve some interactivity with the student. They’re actually having an agent go in and submit it on behalf of themselves. That’s a very big concern that we take very, very seriously. Obviously, the consequence is that our degrees and our programs and our transcripts will lose its value and that they will become meaningless. And so I think it’s similar in the case of being like other crises, like COVID 19, for example, but it’s also uniquely alarming in kind of the destruction that it can have on the value of our grades and our courses and our programs. And the question of, “How do we address the concern?” I think we do handle it in the way that we handle these other risks. We have to be deeply engaging with our faculty. We have to pull together our technology partners. And I think a mistake or a pitfall of this can be if technology says, “Well, the solution lies only in faculty changing the way they assess, adopting project-based learning or authentic assessments.” And if faculty turn around and say, “Well, the problem can only be solved technically if we create some kind of barrier or blocker for these agentic browsers.” And I think those are both equally flawed in terms of its approach, because we’re expecting the answer or the solution to be around the silver bullet, when in actuality, I think the solution lies in a deep partnership where we sit down with each other, with our partners, we look at both programmatic and technical solutions to making sure that the academic integrity of our institutions remains intact.

Rebecca: AI enables more efficient adaptive learning and provides increasingly personalized pathways in support of student success. How do we strike a balance between personalized learning and the formation of human connections essential to creating a sense of belonging? You want to start, Van?

Van: Sure. So this year marks my 30th anniversary of being in higher education, and I started my career as a faculty member, I spent a decade in the classroom as a history professor. And one of the things that I learned very quickly during that time is whether I wanted to or not, you end up teaching to the middle. You run the risk of losing the students that are ahead. You run the risk of losing the students that, for whatever reason, are behind. As much as I wanted to personalize learning, I couldn’t do that, at least not at scale. I think that AI does give us the opportunity eventually to be able to personalize at scale. That does not mean that the human piece loses out. In fact, that human piece, I think, becomes even more critical. We know that relationships matter. We know that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a student can succeed when they have a relationship with somebody on that campus, ideally, their professor. I’m a big fan of Parker Palmer’s work, and specifically, I’m a really big fan of To Know As We Are Known. And if you’re familiar with it, Palmer talks about relational epistemology, which is really just a fancy way of saying that, at the end of the day, what matters is a faculty member’s ability to create a relation with a student, and for students to create relations with each other, and that is the moment at which learning takes place, not the transmission of knowledge, but real learning takes place in the midst of those relationships, and a skilled faculty member turns the classroom into an opportunity to develop relationships and for people to co-create knowledge together. I don’t think AI changes our ability to do that. I don’t think it takes away our ability to do that. I think what AI may be able to do is to take some of the burden off of faculty when it comes to trying to personalize learning, so that faculty can focus on what a human does best and what faculty do best. And that’s the creation of relationships, and that’s where I think the true learning takes place. And I have to say, when I was a faculty member, that was the piece that excited me the most, and probably the piece that, unfortunately, I got to do the least.

Yakut: If I can jump in here, plus one to everything Van said, I mean, so insightful, and I’m not going to repeat because that’s exactly where I was going. But one thing that, when I was listening to you Van, I was reminded of the statistics. Khan Academy’s, Khanmigo, last year, they published their self-efficacy study results within the school districts that they worked with. If you’re familiar, Khanmigo is basically personalized learning using AI. Within the school districts that they worked with, where the tool was available to all teachers and all students at no cost, only 9% of students, 0, it’s not 19%, it’s not 90%. 9% of students used the tool to the level that Kahn Academy deemed standard use, which is two hours a week. So where I’m going with this is provision of the technology, provision of the platform or the tool, does not necessarily lead to the opportunity to learn. So we think these technologies are going to make these available for everybody, which they will, but then there is still a missing piece that makes the student use the technology to learn, and that’s, I think, the inspiration to learn, and that’s the human thing. So as Van mentioned, it takes a faculty member or a parent or an uncle somewhere to inspire people to do something. So if we relieve people of the busy work that takes place to prepare for teaching, or actual teaching in the classroom, we may give them time to actually do this human element of inspiring to learn. And I think the two are hand in hand.

Rebecca: So Marina was kind of hinting at some of the data that’s available in our LMSs. And one thing that online learning leaders increasingly rely on is this use of data analytics, based on institutional and LMS data, which provides more information on student learning practice. AI tools allow for more efficient analysis of this data. So how can this data be leveraged to improve the online learning ecosystem? This could be faculty workload, course offerings, student engagement, and anything else that you can imagine.

Yakut: There are a few things I can mention. First, predictive analytics for early intervention, identifying student interest much earlier, not just those who are failing, but those disengaging. And there was an example about this earlier, struggling with specific concepts and provide targeted support before they fall behind. We have been pursuing these kinds of systems for a long time. I have 32 years in this profession now, and probably half of it was all about predictive analytics. The challenge has been the siloed nature of our data systems at our institutions that create only a partial picture of student success, unless you invest in data lakes, integrated data solutions and whatnot. And then there’s also the governance issue around data. AI can create a leapfrogging effect here. An ability to do this predictive work can also reduce faculty workload. This way, the human is in the loop and is the one doing the empathetic work and empathetic outreach, asking, rather than finding out who needs this kind of outreach, doing the work of outreach, saying, “Are you okay?” Apparently it’s one of the most powerful things you can reach out to students about, are you okay? The heavy lifting is done elsewhere, and then we become more human. Another example could be curriculum optimization. By analyzing patterns across courses, we can identify where students consistently struggle, what courses are synergetic to take together, for example, what courses are toxic to take together and then provide information to both faculty and students around those. Where are the gaps that exist in our program pathways? So if there are skills that are needed, and then that analysis of curriculum and skills matching can be done by AI, and then this can impact our course redesign and sequencing decisions. And also our institutions can allocate resources a little bit more effectively. Analytics can help us understand the actual demand patterns, optimal cohort sizes. We usually say, “Oh, 30 students,” but then we don’t really base it on I mean, it’s a habit that’s telling us about the cohort size to be. It may be classroom size. We can actually do deeper analyses, especially when we’re facing enrollment pressures and financial pressures. But I have to also emphasize two things here. One, this data should inform our decisions, so it’s data-informed decisions, not even data driven, because sometimes we may have to make decisions that go against data, it can be political, it can be governance reasons. We need governance structures that will take this data and generate insights from it, and then transparent communications with students about how their data is used. And this is crucially important. We need to democratize this data and allow students to have access to it, along with institutional access or faculty access. So transparency, ethical use, shared governance around analytics are very important as we become more excited about AI’s potentials in this analytics stage.

Marina: I love all of those things around predictive analytics, early intervention, and then optimization as well. So I’ll just try to add to that conversation a little bit. I’m really interested in how we’re serving our students in online modalities, and who it is that’s succeeding in those courses, because I think we know that traditional education has served a certain group and demographic and gender over time, and only in recent years are we sort of aware of some of the biases in the design of our curriculum and our courses that serve certain people, and how can we analyze our data more efficiently to address what exactly is it that we’re doing that’s helping some students fail and helping some students succeed? And I’m saying that intentionally, because I think we are agents of that success and failure in many ways, as our institutions are structured, and so I’m very interested in sort of decolonizing online education through the use of data analytics and institutional research is notoriously slow. You have to wait a year to get your IR office to work on some data set. It’s a lot of intensive, hard work, and then a year later, you get this sort of lagging indicator of, like, well, like two years ago, this was the thing, and it’s not even relevant now, or things have changed. So I’m excited that AI and data visualization and optimization can allow us to have this in a more timely manner, like just-in-time data. It can help faculty to realize how their own strategies are impacting certain students, well or not well, and then make those changes immediately. If I have an AI coach in my class and it’s telling me that they have identified, I have six African American students, but one of my strategies is unintentionally impacting them in a negative manner, I want to know that now. I want to know what it is that I’m doing in a private message from my AI assistant, [LAUGHTER] and I want to rectify that and immediately change. So that’s the kind of agility that we currently lack in education and in research that I’m very, very excited about: bringing in AI to help with that sort of private, supportive coaching done in the privacy of my own course from a desire to want to improve and serve all of my students.

John: Now, you’ve talked a little bit about some of the benefits, or some of the cost first, and now some of the potential benefits that we have from using AI. How do you see online learning changing in response to AI? And we’ll start with Marina.

Marina: Yeah, so I just want to say it’s really hard to follow up with all the positive, I think benefits that AI can bring that Van and Yakut have brought up, and I 100% agree with those. So I don’t always want to be the downer [LAUGHTER] in this podcast, but if I had a crystal ball and kind of playing on the previous question that you asked, John, around academic integrity, assuming that that is a problem that we’re not going to be able to immediately solve, either programmatically or technically, one of the concerns that I have is that it will affect a specific kind of online learning, which would be fully asynchronous online courses. The ones where they don’t have any set live meetings, I think people will be most critical of those kind of modalities. And so if I have a crystal ball to look at, I suspect that we’ll be bringing back more hybrid forms of online education to replace more asynchronous forms, because of the concern around academic integrity. That’s my crystal ball. What does that mean? Well, it could mean that hybrid, maybe half the courses meetings will be in person, half online, or it could be that there’ll be more proctored assessment, either online proctoring solutions with some of the main vendors that you may have heard of, or in person. So we would need some kind of proctoring network, or some way to address that concern. So I think as a stop gap measure until we kind of come to terms with the academic integrity piece, I see some of that changing. That being said, I do want to sort of add to the good elements that you know Van and Yakut are bringing up, because I think AI can help humans be more human in some ways. I have not been in the classroom for a number of years, but I did teach online for a long time, and I would love to go into my learning management system, and my AI assistant pops up and says, “Hey, Johnny has not interacted with you or any other students for eight days. You might want to check on him to make sure he’s engaged.” Or my assistant tells me, “Hey, you interacted with these 10 students in the discussions this week. You might want to answer posts from these 10 on the public posts” and things like that that help me to be more human, that help me to be more equitable in terms of how I interface and touch my students online, I think that could be a really amazing use of AI, and I don’t think we’ve really realized the true potential of that.

Van: And if I could jump in, I agree with everything that Marina said. My fear, though, is exactly what her crystal ball says, and that is that asynchronous, online education may become more difficult, or will face additional scrutiny, because we already know that we’re highly scrutinized, but we also know that online, asynchronous education plays a critical role in access for a certain student population, and I would hate to see those students, particularly adult learners, or learners who are working or have caregiving responsibilities, lose those opportunities. I think that the main thing that AI is going to do for online education is, I do think it’s going to force us to rethink our pedagogical practices. And I think that we are probably going to need to think about, how do we do alternative forms of assessment, and how do we move from assessing knowledge to assessing abilities and skills. I said that I started my career as a historian. When I took my PhD history exams back in the 1990s so back in the last century. When I took those exams, I sat in my office with my laptop and had no ability to consult any sort of document. It was purely from memory. It was eight hours of answering questions from memory. The reality is, though, that whenever I got into a classroom to teach, I never created a lecture, I never created an assignment, I never created a test without pulling a textbook down or pulling some sort of reference manual down and looking at it. What I did in terms of my teaching was completely disconnected with the way that my graduate program, which came from an R1 institution, assessed me. And so I do think that one of the things I hope AI is going to push us to do is to really rethink our assessment practices so that they are more in line with the reality of our students after they leave our classrooms. And that’s not unique to online education. I think that that type of shift in pedagogical practices really needs to happen across the board if we want our students to truly be prepared for the world that they’re going into after they leave us.

Yakut: Can I quickly add two things that we’re seeing actually happening in terms of change in online, and that’s in the design process. Those of you who are designing online courses will know that one of the first friction points is when we ask faculty to write learning objectives, because they’re not used to thinking about the end in mind, right? They’re used to thinking about, “This is the content I’m going to teach.” So that friction is reduced by use of AI, because you’re easily creating a set of objectives, reiterating from that. And then the other aspect is video production process. You can now ask a faculty member to say something for three minutes, and then you can make that faculty member say anything in any language. Now it may look fake, but it’s going to get better, right? So the video production process and instructional design process are immediately impacted by the use of AI, and it’s going to impact those professions, so we need to do something about it, but I think it’s making our institutions a little bit more agile in terms of updating courses, but also creating new courses based on the input from the market. I also see in larger, better adoption of open source content, because open OERs are problematic because faculty do not have the time to go and research, curate, adopt OERs. AI is proving useful in that process too, going and researching and bringing you things to review and curate. So I think there are immediate gains there as well.

John: Moving to a somewhat different topic, federal regulations and political shifts, of which we’ve seen an awful lot in the last year or so, can create uncertainty. And we’ve seen a flurry of executive orders designed to dismantle long established higher ed priorities concerning equitable and inclusive education, while also restricting financial support. What advice do you have for leaders trying to stay agile and innovative in this evolving and somewhat seemingly random political environment while maintaining compliance with federal regulations in areas such as accessibility and SARA and any other area that may pop up?

Van: Well, if you don’t mind, I’ll start. Given what we do at WCET, if you’re familiar with WCET, we really function at the intersection of policy and practice of digital learning, and we spend a lot of time monitoring what’s going on, particularly in Washington D.C., at the federal level, at the Department of Education, and increasingly in the executive Oval Office, and translating that to the field, in terms of what that means. It’s not lost on me that before I joined the webinar this afternoon, I was watching several of my colleagues respond in real time to the negotiated rule making that’s taking place in Washington DC right now around things like accountability measures, new accountability measures around student loan limits. So it really is a dynamic environment that we’re in. I think that there are ways that AI can help us navigate this, actually. So, one of the things that I played around with, I spoke to a group of SARA administrators, that’s the State Authorization Reciprocity Agreement. I spoke to a group of SARA administrators this summer at their annual meeting, specifically about AI. And one of the things that I played around with was taking the SARA policy manual, pointing Perplexity to that manual, and then asking it specifically to create a synthesis of the regulations in that manual, and then asking it to go out and pull out the contact information for each state SPE that’s the State portal entity, that’s the primary SARA person in each state, and to provide me with a table of who those individuals were and what their contact information was. This is something that it would take somebody hours, if not days, to do, I got this back in two minutes. So I do think that there are ways that AI can be used to help us navigate the policy landscape more quickly than what we have been able to do in the past, and to democratize that so that everyone has the ability now to understand these regulations, rather than just a few people at each campus. We are going to have to remain vigilant. We are going to have to make sure that we follow what is happening, particularly in Washington D.C. I will tell you that this Department of Education is very bullish on AI. They are particularly interested in finding ways that it can be used in the educational process. Having said that, they have done very little, though, in providing regulatory guidance. So, my advice is to monitor, to lean on organizations like WCET that are monitoring this for you, to not be afraid to experiment with it. And then I would say this, regardless of the technology: start small and fail, and learn from your failures, and don’t be afraid to fail. And I think that that last piece is really critical, it’s critical with any technology, but I think it’s especially critical with AI, because the only way we’re going to be able to figure out how to best leverage this is if we experiment with it, and if we experiment with it, we have to accept the fact that we’re going to fail sometimes, and we can learn from those failures. That’s scary in higher education, we’re taught not to fail in higher education, and I think that we’re going to have to shift our mindset so that we really are embracing a growth mindset, to borrow Carol Dweck’s framework, if we’re going to be able to remain agile, but also be very innovative, and leverage AI to the ability that we are able to.

Yakut: So Van has been doing this for such a long time, I don’t know if I can add anything except for a plus one to everything that he said. Maybe one thing that I can add is agility does not mean reacting to every political signal. Staying grounded in institutional values and your personal values, and then building flexible implementation strategies. So our commitment to accessible, inclusive, high quality education, and student success doesn’t change how we articulate and implement that work may shift because of what’s happening around us, and the importance of being connected to networks like WCET, UPCEA and learning from these state compacts and peer networks is extremely invaluable. There may be institutions out there without enough resources to allow their people to be connected to those networks. So maybe this is the time to urge these professional networks to be a little bit more lenient and allow, for example, I’m just making this up, I just thought of this while I was listening to Van, what would it be like if professional organizations allowed 5% of an institution’s size to be peers like gift memberships? So the institution X, a regional university, may not have the resources to become a member, but it is so important for all of us to be successful at this point in time. Maybe, you know, my institution can gift a 5% of our size to that institution, so like sister institution kind of thing. And very important to document your decision-making processes at your institution, how you’re interpreting regulations, documented, so that you have both accessibility to that information but also accountability. It protects your institution. It demonstrates good faith effort and legal counsel and government relations are your friends in this uncertain political environment, and proactive communication with them is very important.

Rebecca: In states with multiple public colleges such as the SUNY system, each campus is, to some extent, competing with other campuses in offering online degrees. What mix of cooperation and competition is optimal in such environments?

Marina: I can talk a little bit about the California Virtual Campus because the California Community Colleges are very similar to SUNY in terms of just being a big ship to steer. A lot of you know, local decisions, some centralization, and people are always, I think, generally speaking, a little bit threatened by the centralized stuff. When the California Virtual Campus first rolled out, gosh, 10 plus years ago, and we talked about course sharing, there was immediately sort of concerns around, “Are we going to be cannibalizing our enrollment?” We love the word cannibalizing, I don’t know why in education [LAUGHTER], but immediately it’s like, “oh my god, we’re going to lose enrollment. This is going to be terrible for us. The Big Brother is going to take over our curriculum and tell us what to do.” There’s all of these anxieties that come out from administrators, from faculty, from different leaders, and so I think to put that in a different perspective, has been really hard, because you’re fighting against that cultural anxiety that we have around being an independent institution. So when do you hear and when are you independent? What I’ve tried to do with the CBC and our system is to have some very honest conversations around “what exactly is your concern? Is that concern an institution centered concern, or an enrollment concern, or a funding concern, and how does that then relate to your learners?” Really shifting the conversation from, “we’re worried about how we do things to what’s the best-case scenario for our students? Do they have the options that they need? Do they have the access that we need? Are we really leveraging our collective power in a way that benefits the learners in the most compelling and powerful way?” That’s sort of the question that I’ve had to ask, and it took about 10 years [LAUGHTER] for California Community Colleges to get on board with course sharing, and now it’s a big success. We share professional development, we’re sharing financial aid, we’re sharing transcripts, things that people have held on to so closely, of like, “No, this is our school. This is our university.” And I think this idea is very outdated now, thankfully. And the future really is less institutions, especially smaller institutions, rural, under-resourced institutions trying to be everything for their students, trying to give them every class that they need for every program, and meeting every need. That’s exhausting, and what we’re finding is courses are being discontinued, faculty are, in some cases, unfortunately, losing their work, especially part-time faculty and adjunct faculty, programs are being discontinued, and in some cases, entire institutions are being shut down and absorbed by other institutions, or just not being absorbed at all. And so to avoid this, I think, unfortunate, outdated approach, we have to pull together, we have to pool our resources, and we have to put aside our institutional egos and really realize that there’s a lot of strength in our collective power and when we come together. I can give some examples later but one thing that we’re doing in the California Community Colleges, which is really exciting, is several of our rural colleges, which, again are tiny, they don’t have a lot of staff, they don’t have a lot of programs or money. They’re pulling together to create fully online associate degrees. So by themselves, they would never be able to meet all the requirements to offer those degrees online, but collectively they are, so it’s benefiting their programs, they’re able to grow their enrollment, and it’s benefiting a large swath of their students as well. So that’s the kind of thing that I think doesn’t have to be competitive, but they can actually be mutually beneficial for students and institutions.

Van: So you know, the “C” in WCET stands for cooperative. We’re the WICHE Cooperative for Educational Technology. So we take this idea of collaboration and cooperation really seriously. And I think just plus one to everything that Marina said, it’s always hard to follow Marina whenever I’m on a panel. I think that course sharing was a great example. It’s also oftentimes a really scary example for faculty, especially. What I wish that I would hear more about is the way in which institutions begin to share administrative burden. And I think that maybe, if there’s a thin end of the wedge that can maybe help an institution eventually get to that course sharing, It’s to have that conversation about, “Are there administrative functions that can be done better collectively than individually? And what are those?” And maybe the easiest thing to do to start with is an arrangement where you are jointly purchasing services. We know that folks are able to get better deals whenever they go in with multiple institutions than whenever they go in with individual institutions. At an earlier point in my career, I was in charge of online education in the state of Texas, and the legislature asked me to determine what each institution in the state of Texas was paying for its learning management system, and I learned very quickly that A) I didn’t have access to that information because there were non-disclosure agreements, and B) there were non-disclosure agreements because what institutions were paying for the same learning management system were vastly different. And so I do think that one of the things that institutions can immediately do, that isn’t scary, is to create those purchasing co-ops and to look at what administrative functions can you share. And then, by all means, move as fast as you can towards course sharing, because I think that Marina is absolutely right when we think about what is in the best interest of our learners, course sharing is oftentimes in the best interest of our learners. It gives them access to a larger number of classes, it gives them access to a larger number of opportunities to progress in their academic career and move towards that credential that they’re seeking, and it allows institutions to specialize. As a recovering historian, as much as I would love to see every institution offer a history major, the reality is every institution probably doesn’t need to offer an online history major. So think about what is it that your institution can do that is unique to you, that you can double down on and do well, and then begin to share that with other people and with other institutions. And I think that will help us greatly in terms of being able to really move towards what our learners need, rather than just what’s going to be in benefit of us. And the last thing I would say is not only think about, are there programs you can specialize in, but think about, are there student populations that you can specialize in? You know, maybe you have an institution that is particularly good working with English language learners. Not every institution is going to have that level of expertise. And so maybe think as well about, in addition to the programs that you may have some specialization in, are there learner populations that you know that you are doing a good job of meeting their needs, and you can help other institutions do that as well.

John: Institutions vary quite a bit in terms of their size, their funding, how well established online programs are. What strategies can leaders at small or resource-constrained colleges use to develop sustainable online learning practices despite often limited staffing and infrastructure, or in environments where faculty are experiencing burnout or there’s some form of organizational resistance to change?

Yakut: Well let me jump in, and I think there are quite a few parallels between this question and the previous question that was asked. 15 years ago, I was at a regional university in Texas, and in fact, I know Van from those days. In a matter of three years, this was a new institution, we rolled out 13 online programs. It was amazing. There were not a lot of resources, brand new university, faculty resources are scarce. I was a team of one. So fast forward to today. This would not be possible. One, the market is so saturated with degrees, you don’t have the competitive advantage anymore. And two, the resources are even reduced compared to 15 years ago. So in places where resource-constrained or smaller institutions, sustainability of effort comes from focus. So, not trying to do everything like, “Oh, let’s just roll out an online program for every single program that we offer,” but intently looking at the market need and connection to jobs, starting with that community where the institution exists, but a little broader too. So those small number of programs that clearly advance this mission and student access, then invest deeply in quality faculty support, instructional design, quality is by itself, a whole entire conversation, I think. And then faculty burnout. It’s real. And many times when faculty resist online, we take it personally. We don’t like it. But then it’s just exhaustion rather than real opposition. Transparent communication, realistic timelines, recognizing that this is instructional labor, this is on top of everything else that we’re asking from you, and then supporting that instructional labor in a respectful way goes a long way in helping faculty burnout. Sometimes, the most strategic move is to slow down and build that trust and capacity within the institution, because let’s face it, in institutions like that, you’re going to rely heavily on faculty time and faculty effort to design and develop those courses, compared to larger institutions where there are large teams of instructional designers or video producers that are going to do the heavy lifting for your faculty. Again, tying to the previous conversation, shared tech services, vendor collaborations, a lot of these institutions can punch above their weight and without overextending people, so that those kinds of strategies should be part of it. And finally, I want to tie this conversation to the AI conversation. Many universities have responded by signing big enterprise deals with AI companies. And they paid a lot of money for this, and they wanted to achieve equitable access for their own communities, they wanted all their students to have access, all their faculty to have access. But this results in us treating AI as a competitive advantage, where we should start seeing it as a collective challenge. So we should be forming system-wide and cross-institutional partnerships when it comes to AI deals as well. These partnerships can be between universities, between universities and community colleges, sister campuses like sister cities, so that we raise all boats and ensure equitable access for everybody. There is room for all of us to be successful, and our actions should complement that belief. And we need to bring faculty into these decisions, because the moment you announce a deal, AI deal, that will allow everybody to have access to AI, it may be interpreted as a blanket permission for unrestricted AI use in every course, which is not the case at many of our institutions. So faculty’s presence at these tables is very important.

Marina: Yeah, I just want to say amen to Yakut’s point about faculty burnout and kind of respecting the time and the expertise that they bring to the table. Our faculty also have, at many of our institutions, expressed burnout, and so anything we do is really thought around that concern. In terms of AI, if we want to foster leadership amongst the ranks of our faculty, we actually created an AI fellowship, and we selected a couple dozen AI fellows from the system to lead some really important work. And they’re being compensated with reassigned time or stipends in some cases, to do that work, in addition to some staff members, classified staff members as well, because they often, you know, occupy the gray space that we forget about, that support faculty and instruction too. So that’s very important. I think about a parallel to online learning, and actually it’s an important parallel with open educational resources. In my previous role as a dean at one of the community colleges in our state, we wanted to grow open OER, but it was the same thing. Faculty were like, “In order to change my textbook to an OER, it’s gonna take so much work and effort, and I have to change all my tests and all my prompts and all of this.” So we started giving very small stipends. I think at the time, it was like $500 for faculty to adopt OER. And I did an analysis of this over time… I wish I had AI to do that, but I had to do this [LAUGHTER] myself… but essentially, we saved students something like five million dollars within the first couple of years that it was being adopted, and we spent, I think like 200k during that same period of time. So doing the data on the return on investment for supporting faculty, it’s going to be tremendous to kind of ensure that they’re not burnt out, that they have time, and they have the space mentally to do the work that we need them to do. So that would be one key thing. And I think OER, what we’re finding, and what we found in our institution is as well, that there are higher outcomes in terms of success rates and grades in online courses when an OER is used in that course than in the same course with a physical textbook that students had to purchase. So those are kind of connected. And then just to kind of go back to course sharing, I can always count on Van to be my greatest ally with course sharing, but we have colleges that were very reluctant to get involved in course sharing, as I mentioned. When I joined the CVC four years ago, we had something like 2,000 enrollments on course sharing and 2,000 enrollments for a system of our size is not that great. We’d joke that most of it’s our staff trying to see if it works. This year we’re going to have more than 50,000 enrollments. So within four years we went from 2,000 to 50,000. I think we’re going to double and triple that in years to come, because we finally gain momentum and trust and involvement and engagement. Of those 50,000, you look at the numbers, some rural colleges are making out like bandits. They’ve gained 1000s of enrollments through course sharing, by putting their courses on our course sharing platform, and benefiting from it tremendously, and gaining enrollments that they would never be able to get from their local zip code because of their rural environment and so forth. So, it’s a win-win proposition, it doesn’t add any extra work. We let them fill their classes locally with their local registrants, meaning they’re returning students, their athletes, their disabled students, and so forth. And then any courses that are not filled, we pull them into our platform, and they’re open for anybody in the state to take. It’s a very simple formula that, again, has really netted 1000s of enrollments for these small rural colleges, brought in funding, brought in additional resources for their burnt out faculty and their staff and their infrastructure. So I think my suggestion for strategy is find those formulas that are win-win propositions. It doesn’t need to be something where one person loses, another person wins in order to get the involvement, there are ways for everybody to win, and that’s, I think, an exciting opportunity for us.

Rebecca: We always end by asking: what’s next? Start with Van?

Van: Sure. So ironically, I just finished writing a blog post for WC Frontiers on this, this morning. I don’t have a crystal ball. I do have a magic eight ball, though, if you remember those. My predecessor gifted me one to help me navigate the challenging federal policy environment. So I have my trusty magic eight ball. I think there’s six things to look for in 2026. I think the first thing is we need to remember that the connection to workforce education is everyone’s responsibility. It’s not just a few faculty members’ responsibility. This is particularly important with the move to Workforce Pell, but it’s important as we see a workforce increasingly asking for graduates that are AI literate. And I think that AI literacies is everyone’s responsibility. Two is AI literacies. I think that we need to desperately change the narrative from just focusing on academic integrity to beginning to focus on AI literacies and you’ll notice that I use the plural there, because I don’t think it’s black and white. I don’t think it’s you know or not know. I think that it’s a spectrum of issues that faculty and students and staff need to have mastery of. Three, and this really ties to what Marina was just talking about, we need to get creative economically. Like I said, I’m a historian by training. That means that I tend to run towards the pessimistic side, because I know just how bad things can get sometimes, and I am afraid that we’re looking at a very challenging economic environment on the federal level, and that’s going to trickle down to the state level, especially for our public institutions. So I do think that we’re going to have to get creative economically. We’re going to have to do things like think about course sharing, like thinking about purchasing consortiums, changing our business model in higher education and in digital learning. I think that that means that one way that we can do that is to lean into those post-traditional learners. There are 43.1 million Americans who started college and did not get a credential. That is a travesty. We should not have 43.1 million people that stopped out. That tells me that, first of all, we’re not doing right by those folks, but it also means that there are 43.1 million people that we can get back into higher education if we try, and we won’t get all of them back. But we need to think about how do we offer programs that attract those adult learners and keep them. What did we do wrong the first time around to make them stop out? It’s not all an institution’s fault. Adult learners have a number of challenges that they’re juggling, but are there ways that we can attract them back into our classes, and that we can make sure that we provide them with the supports that they need in order to stay and be successful? I don’t think we can lose sight on accessibility in 2026. It is not just the right thing to do ethically, it’s going to be the right thing to do legally, with the Title II regulations that go into effect at the end of April. And the upshot of those five things is that digital learning is going to be more important than it has ever been before. And that means that your job as digital learning leaders, your role on your campus, your role in the SUNY system, is going to be more critical than it has ever been before. And so I think that that’s what we have to look forward to and the upshot of it is that, at the end of the day, what you do as a digital learning leader matters and is going to be more important than it has ever been before, more important than it even probably was during the COVID-19 pandemic. So that’s what the magic eight ball over in my WCET office says.

Yakut: Now, how do I follow this? I mean, you covered everything, Van. I was actually going to start with the same sentiment, online education sits at the center of all the challenges higher education is facing, and the work ahead of us is to leverage its pedagogical power, its ability to expand access to affordability, and its ability to amplify our institutions’ impact. You covered a lot of things. There is one thing that I would like to just append to what you said. I want to point out that we in higher education often forget that we are not just educators. We’re also employers. In many cases, we are one of the largest employers in our communities. And many campuses, many of our institutions still lack a coherent AI upskilling plan for our own workforce. We have tons of projects facing transfer efficiency across our institutions, productivity, but then we don’t really have, in many cases, a plan to help our own people adapt. A Brookings Report from, now, a year and a half ago, estimated 19 million US jobs that are significantly affected by AI. And many of those roles exist right on our campuses. Many of our employees hold jobs at risk of automation, such as legal analysis, paralegal, administrative assistance, accounting, communications, we just talked about instructional design and production. These job categories are, drumroll, they are populated by women. You know, we identify these areas of risk, but we don’t really come up, at least in higher education, strategies to address those. We must understand that there is a differential impact of AI on our workforce. These jobs that I listed are stable middle class professions. They are pathways for upward mobility for a lot of families. So we have to ask this year and beyond, what happens to our societies when women or any subgroup begin to disappear from the workforce as a result of AI, and what are we doing to stop that from happening? Thank you.

Marina: It’s unfair to go after Yakut and Van, but I just want to really say I appreciate that Yakut points to our own employees and our own communities, and starting at home, I think that’s something that’s an important reminder for me myself. If I could just leave with three additional things to summarize some of our conversations from today, I would say, you know, number one is a reckoning when it comes to AI in higher ed. There is a reckoning for specifically, as I mentioned, asynchronous fully online courses, and how we’re going to manage that, and the long game of changing the way we teach and the way we assess our students and the use of outcomes in our courses. So I think this is going to be the next big thing for us to tackle. The second and this is something Van has spoken to about extensively, is a move toward thoughtfully shared resources. In our system, we pay for the common LMS. We pay for and negotiate common ed tech vendor contract tracks as well, course sharing, as I mentioned. So there’s going to be more and more a move toward this, especially in light of federal funding issues that colleges are experiencing. And the final piece of it that’s actually really near and dear to me, is a revisiting of old norms and ways of doing things. The way we handle our transcripts, for example, is… I’ve spoken about this in other venues… highly inequitable. The way we handle our financial aid, that can be very hit or miss depending on what institution a student goes to. The way students have access to courses, our levels of accessibility, the way we gather analytics and research, which I think AI will dramatically transform. Institutional research is going to greatly change in the next couple of years. I think these are going to be really exciting “what’s next” as well for higher ed.

Rebecca: Well, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciated the conversation and the many things to be thinking about as we trudge down 2026.

John: Yes, thank you.

Yakut: Thank you for having us.

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John: If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast service. To continue the conversation, join us on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.

Rebecca: You can find show notes, transcripts and other materials on teaforteaching.com. Music by Michael Gary Brewer.

John: Editing Assistance provided by Madison Lee.

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